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  1. #1

    Question Is Dream of Cenarius at all viable in Raiding?

    I see pretty much every druid (of every spec) out there picking either Nature's Vigil or Heart of the Wild for endgame raiding, but Dream of Cenarius is just never taken.

    Are there any viable usages for Dream of Cenarius in endgame raiding, or is it just a PvP talent?

    EDIT: Is the Dream talent worth anything to Moonkins in PvE?
    Last edited by Aleksej89; 2013-03-19 at 01:51 PM.

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    its the BEST talent for feral cats, like 7K higher theoratical DPS
    i think most of the top ferals have it.

    however it makes the rotation harder therefor some (like me) still go for HotW (i alos think hurricane and wrath spam is more fun)
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  3. #3
    The Insane Wildtree's Avatar
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    Dream is the way to go for kitty. Hands down...... HotW is great for Resto for example.
    You can help with some DPS while you keep a group of people healed.. Those 150k Wrath hits help... It's certainly not a lot, but sometimes it can make the difference if you can spam dps for 30 seconds.... The other 15 seconds you use for heals.

    Dreams side effect is also to be able to help your healers with healing yourself up after you've released your combo points. And that self heal turns into 25% damage increase for the next two melee attacks... So yes, very useful in raids, if you are a kitty.
    Last edited by Wildtree; 2013-03-19 at 01:23 PM.

  4. #4
    Is the Dream talent worth anything to Moonkins in PvE?

  5. #5
    In a realistic raiding environment, Dream of Cenarius is not worth picking up. I would suggest HoTW most of the time and Nature's Vigil for bosses with damage modifiers such as Jin'rokh, Tortos, Ji-Kun, etc.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by craigp100 View Post
    In a realistic raiding environment, Dream of Cenarius is not worth picking up. I would suggest HoTW most of the time and Nature's Vigil for bosses with damage modifiers such as Jin'rokh, Tortos, Ji-Kun, etc.
    Are you talking about a particular spec, or for all specs in pve?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Are you talking about a particular spec, or for all specs in pve?
    I believe he's talking about balance, specifically. DoC is theoretically the best for Feral DPS, but in terms of raiding, it's pretty worthless for a balance druid. It can be used to some extent for soloing content though, since healing yourself and getting strong DoTs on the target while kiting is ideal for such a situation.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikeyeia View Post
    I believe he's talking about balance, specifically. DoC is theoretically the best for Feral DPS, but in terms of raiding, it's pretty worthless for a balance druid. It can be used to some extent for soloing content though, since healing yourself and getting strong DoTs on the target while kiting is ideal for such a situation.
    I don't understand why Blizz did not alter this talent in 5.2?
    They said that 5.2 is the "improving bad talents" patch, but many (like DoCenarius) was completely ignored.

  9. #9
    Pandaren Monk Moosie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    I don't understand why Blizz did not alter this talent in 5.2?
    They said that 5.2 is the "improving bad talents" patch, but many (like DoCenarius) was completely ignored.
    Because it's fine, afaik, NV was only nerfed to bring down feral burst in pvp a little, but now most ferals use DoC in pvp too. The only annoyance about DoC is that it kinda makes you feel lazy when using anything else. When we were progressing on blade lord, a HotW tranq (mine) was used just after you land so that it tops people up and then they can run. My DPS was slightly lower using HotW and just felt...boring after using DoC for such a long time.

    They in all honesty, got it right. You put that little bit more effort in, to get the DoC rotation right, you are rewarded with slightly higher dps. What I have seen anyway, yet to see a fight (except wind lord) where I did more DPS using HotW then DoC.

    Maybe make it more attractive for boom/resto though, never seen any of them use it so far.
    Last edited by Moosie; 2013-03-19 at 06:17 PM.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by razorback07 View Post
    They in all honesty, got it right. You put that little bit more effort in, to get the DoC rotation right, you are rewarded with slightly higher dps. What I have seen anyway, yet to see a fight (except wind lord) where I did more DPS using HotW then DoC.

    Maybe make it more attractive for boom/resto though, never seen any of them use it so far.
    They got it right for feral dps, but I don't see any feral tank using it, and as a boomkin/2nd spec healer I've never even considered taking it, it barely compare to the 2 other talent on a theorical patchwerk fight with zero movement (and no boss fight on t14/t15 has no movement) and it's just worse for every other type of fight.

  11. #11
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Dream of Cenarius is very difficult to be viable for a boomkin, mostly because movement will reduce the effectiveness of the buff (taking too long to refresh DoC'd dots is a significant loss), and once you throw in another target or two, it becomes very clunky or even a DPS loss to manage that many DoC'd dots.

    HotW/NV is much easier to manage, and requires minimal effort.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Dream of Cenarius is very difficult to be viable for a boomkin, mostly because movement will reduce the effectiveness of the buff (taking too long to refresh DoC'd dots is a significant loss), and once you throw in another target or two, it becomes very clunky or even a DPS loss to manage that many DoC'd dots.

    HotW/NV is much easier to manage, and requires minimal effort.
    I like how it fits into the cat rotation, but the moonkin + DoCenar = HORRIBLE ;(

  13. #13
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Generally, only Ferals CAN use Dream of Cenarius due to A) Free globals, and B) Predatory Swiftness procs, allowing them to heal without shifting. Of couse, for Ferals, hard casting a Healing Touch so you can have a buffed Rip/Rake combo with other cooldowns up is worth the loss in dps from the 3 auto attacks, so you can, rarely, hard cast HT as feral (You want to try to get all Rips/Rakes DoC buffed for max dps). For boomkins and Guardians, you have to hard cast a heal to get the damage buff, and for guardians, you have to shift out to cast any kind of heal (Which is bad, since you take twice the amount of damage as you normally would due to armor loss). For resto, you have to hard cast Wrath- if Wrath had a 1.5second cast time, and was free, it would be a viable choice for Resto. Sadly, wrath has a 1.8 second base cast time, and costs the same amount of mana as a nourish, making it clunky to use.

    Thus, due to the fact that you have to hard cast healing touch as Moonkin to get the damage buff, its actually a damage LOSS to use DoC, compared to having no talent (In the time you casted a healing touch, you could have also casted 1 and a half wraths, or 1 full starfire, both of which do more damage then 30% extra damage to 2 spells.) Due to the fact that you have to shift out of bear to utilize DoC at all, its a significant survival loss- any bear that says "Sorry, I died because i was trying to use DoC" will be kicked/sat quickly. For resto, due to the fact that you have to cast wrath, its a healing loss compared to the other 2 talents- in the amount of time you could have casted wrath to buff your single next healing spell by 30%, you could have casted 2 rejuves already, if mana is not an issue, and if mana is an issue, you could have either planted shrooms or casted a nourish to save on the mana.

    DoC would actually be fairly decent for resto/balance if it allowed you to stack multiple charges- AKA you could, say, cast wrath for 10 seconds, and have your next, say, 10 healing spells buffed by 30%, or, as boomkin, cast healing touch for 10 seconds, and have your next 12 damage spells increased by 30%. This would allow healers to dps during low damage periods for a big healing buff, akin to priests, and allow boomkins to either A) prepare for a period of heavy burst damage on the boss (Heroic Wind Lord, adds going down soon. Precast a bunch of healing touches so you can burst for 30% more then usual on Wind Lord). B) it would allow you to go into combat with 30% damage stacks, thus helping boomkins out a bit, and C) it would be as useful as HotW for the healing portion, given that in the amount of time you've been dpsing, you have also been increasing your healing stacks, thus allowing you to be a "healer/dps" sorta spec, akin to fistweavers/pure attonement specs, which have seen use on multiple fights this tier in 10 man.

    So, yea, for DoC to be useful for either Resto or Boomkin, it needs to have a stacking component- lets say 15 stacks for healing, 20 stacks for dps.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Of couse, for Ferals, hard casting a Healing Touch so you can have a buffed Rip/Rake combo with other cooldowns up is worth the loss in dps from the 3 auto attacks, so you can, rarely, hard cast HT as feral (You want to try to get all Rips/Rakes DoC buffed for max dps).
    From where or how did you come to that conclusion? This was the case during MoP beta when it was grossly overpowered (50% damage buff instead of 25%), but I've heard nothing about anyone doing this rotationally since then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Thus, due to the fact that you have to hard cast healing touch as Moonkin to get the damage buff, its actually a damage LOSS to use DoC, compared to having no talent
    I'm pretty sure this is completely false. That would be such an unbelievably dumb oversight on Blizzard's part, not to mention it was more than competitive during beta before they rebalanced some of the talents.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-03-20 at 05:24 AM.

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  15. #15
    Egh, I wish they'd just remove the DPS implications of this tier. Tying a survivability talent to DPS is the sort of thing I thought they were trying to avoid.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Egh, I wish they'd just remove the DPS implications of this tier. Tying a survivability talent to DPS is the sort of thing I thought they were trying to avoid.
    I sort of agree with respect to DoC and kitties. The problem for Feral is that DoC requires specific timing, and there are occurrences where that specific timing is not a survivability gain, or that you'd need to use your FS proc for a Rebirth. Sadly, I think the only reason that it's tolerated is due to how much of a damage increase it provides. If it provided theoretically the same DPS as any of the other talents, I doubt it would be used as much as it is.

    The problem with the DoC talent, in general, is that it's only feasible for one spec out of four. HotW and NV provide at least some level of noticeable benefit to all specs, even if all benefits are not created equal. I'd love DoC to have some benefit/interaction with Guardian that's worth something.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2013-03-20 at 07:26 AM.
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  17. #17
    Very nice answers, thanks all

  18. #18
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    From where or how did you come to that conclusion? This was the case during MoP beta when it was grossly overpowered (50% damage buff instead of 25%), but I've heard nothing about anyone doing this rotationally since then.

    I'm pretty sure this is completely false. That would be such an unbelievably dumb oversight on Blizzard's part, not to mention it was more than competitive during beta before they rebalanced some of the talents.
    For the moonkin part, i should have stated myself better- it CAN be a dps loss compared to using no talent. With DoC, the only time it results in a dps increase is if A) reapplying Sun/Moonfire, preferably during an eclipse, or B) before doing 2x Hurricane/AS. I could be mistaken on B, as I am unsure if it benifits those 2 spells.

    For the feral, simple math on my part. I currently melee for approximately 18k per hit. My Rip hits for 250k without DoC, no crits, my rake for close to 130k, same condition as Rip. In the time I am casting HT, I would have meleed either twice or thrice. Assuming I would have meleed 3 times in that time period, that is 54k damage that needs to be made up. 25% of 250k is 62.5k. The damage is already made up right there. 25% of 130k, 32.5k, or a total of 95k damage from having both Rip/Rake DoC buffed. Of course, the BEST thing to do is pool energy before using combo point abilities, so that you can attempt to have both Rip AND rake buffed with the PS HT. Still, for me, personally, its a dps increase to hard cast HT, providing that A) I will not energy cap during casting, and B) its buffing both a fresh Rip and Rake (It actually only has to buff Rip for me, rake is an extra bonus. Meaning that as long as it buffs Rip, its a dps increase). I have low mastery, so I assume that for druids stacking mastery, it only becomes more true.

    EDIT: After taking a look at boomkin numbers... Wrath using 2x DoC charges is a dps loss compared to having no talent. Starfire using 2x DoC charges is a very, VERY small damage increase, but still a loss compared to choosing Heart/NV. Delaying the casting time of Starsurge by about 1.7 seconds is a damage loss compared to no talent

    So, in addition to refreshing DoTs only, and when using AoE spells, there is a third point when DoC usage can be a decent damage increase, and that is preemptively casting it so that a DoC buffed Starsurge goes off, preferably during Lunar eclipse, given that casting a DoC buffed wrath is a dps loss. In addition, for the AoE, you need to be able to channel Hurricane for the full duration at least once for it to be a dps gain over, say, just casting hurricane.

    Now, for boomkin, there are a few things that leads to this being detrimental in all situations. For the AoE portion, you HAVE to channel a full hurricane. For the DoT portion, moonfire/sunfire can easily get different durations (For instance, you could have Moonfire expire with Sunfire having 10+seconds left during a solar eclipse- in this situation, you would just refresh moonfire and continue to spam wrath, forgoeing DoC entirely). For the Starsurge, well, its entirely unpredictable- you could just start casting Healing touch, then have shooting stars proc, and have to waste a global to cast Starsurge.

    So, really, the only time DoC gives a bigger DPS increase over the other 2 options is in a multidot-AoE situation that will last for a while. With that, you can have your damage essentially increased by around 32%.
    Last edited by Raugnaut; 2013-03-29 at 11:33 PM.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    For the feral, simple math on my part. I currently melee for approximately 18k per hit. My Rip hits for 250k without DoC, no crits, my rake for close to 130k, same condition as Rip. In the time I am casting HT, I would have meleed either twice or thrice. Assuming I would have meleed 3 times in that time period, that is 54k damage that needs to be made up. 25% of 250k is 62.5k. The damage is already made up right there. 25% of 130k, 32.5k, or a total of 95k damage from having both Rip/Rake DoC buffed. Of course, the BEST thing to do is pool energy before using combo point abilities, so that you can attempt to have both Rip AND rake buffed with the PS HT. Still, for me, personally, its a dps increase to hard cast HT, providing that A) I will not energy cap during casting, and B) its buffing both a fresh Rip and Rake (It actually only has to buff Rip for me, rake is an extra bonus. Meaning that as long as it buffs Rip, its a dps increase). I have low mastery, so I assume that for druids stacking mastery, it only becomes more true.
    It's much closer to 4 auto attacks than 3 ((1.5s + 2.5/haste sec)/(1/haste sec)) and you're also completely discounting the Omen of Clarities that could have procced off of those 4 attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    stuff about balance druids
    The buff only applies to moonfire and sunfire, not any other abilities. Makes it actually quite hard to screw up.

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  20. #20
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    It's much closer to 4 auto attacks than 3 ((1.5s + 2.5/haste sec)/(1/haste sec)) and you're also completely discounting the Omen of Clarities that could have procced off of those 4 attacks.

    I dont see where you are getting the 1.5 seconds. It doesnt cost a global to shift OUT and cast, and you start auto-attacking as soon as you shift back into cat form. So, 3.5 seconds at the max, or 3 autoattacks.

    As for OoC procs, thats more RNG. You COULD, in theory, have all 3 auto-attacks hit, crit, AND proc OoC, but you could very well have none. Still, counting 4 auto-attacks, the damage of a buffed Rip/Rake is still >>> then that, and averaging in OoC procs, which would probably be used on an unbuffed rake, its still > then the amount of damage (I believe OoC proc rate is around 10%, no ICD, meaning that the chances of it procing on those 4 auto attacks is fairly low). The amount of damage gained by hard-casting Healing Touch to be sure that you have a buffed Rip/Rake combo will only increase with mastery (Although gaining weapon damage decreases the dps gain. Of course, going from tier to tier, there should be a steady rise in the amount of mastery druids have, going above mastery)

    As for balance druids, I did NOT know it only applies to moon/sunfires. Sadly, that only causes it to be more sub-par in my eyes, given that not only do you loose around 1.5 wraths/.9 starfires every 26 seconds or so, it does nothing for mass-AoE damage, whereas the other 2 options allow for more versatility.
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