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  1. #1
    Pandaren Monk Slummish's Avatar
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    The death of resistance-based gating.

    Another thread got me thinking about this lost aspect of raiding.

    There was a time when guilds had to raid underbosses for a number of weeks in order to obtain the materials and patterns needed to gear up the raid for the later challenges of the raid that were to be met near the end of a tier.

    We had to farm Lava Core, Fiery Core and Core Leather or risk burning to death in the Molten Core.

    We had to farm Onyxia Scales to craft cloaks to thwart to Shadowflames of Blackwing Lair.

    We had to sacrifice stats and collect nature resist gear from innumerable sources to survive Ahn'Qiraj.

    We had to thaw and collect Frozen Runes to build frost resist sets to give us a fighting chance in Naxxramas.

    In TBC, the fight continued... There were resist requirements for Hydross, Solarian (initially), Mother Shahraz.

    We saw some of this continued in WotLK with Sapphiron. However, by the time Fjola Lightbane and Eydis Darkbane came along, Blizzard decided resistances should simply be worked into encounter mechanics and the need for specialized gear was removed.

    While I believe that having to farm gear mats was annoying and slowed progression and having to do it all again when a raid member left and someone new took his place was tedious; it also added to the building of community and the cohesiveness of the guild and made players work together to help gear up their teammates. And more importantly, it gave the group something to strive for together that would give them an edge as a reward for their dedication week after week.

    Being able to decimate a raid tier within days of its release might be fun for a week for .001% of the WoW community as they race to world-first, but in the end, it really means very little and adds nothing to the spirit of the MMO when the only thing keeping you from killing a boss is the fact that Blizzard hasn't opened the door to his parlor just yet.

    Building teams, gearing up for survivability rather shear damage output, working together over a period of time to face down bigger challenges, and finally having just enough resistance to whatever it is the boss is putting out is what made WoW raiding feel like something special...

    Collecting crafting materials in raids now feels like a afterthought. Sure, we can collect blood spirits, haunting spirits and smelt lightning steel ingots from raiding, but what does any of that really provide? Just some filler pieces that don't add anything to your character but another layer of general stats.

  2. #2
    Scarab Lord MasterOfKnees's Avatar
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    The building of resistance gear was always, at least to me, just a poor way to prolong content and force people to farm something together that they don't really want to do. No one wanted to farm it, the only fun you could have with it was the fun that your group members and yourself made. Also, resistance died completely in WotLK, Sapphiron really didn't require you to get frost resistance, at least unless you were a tank. It's true that it brought people together, but because it was so boring the farming was usually filled with a lot of negativity from the members.

  3. #3
    Legendary! Evil Inside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slummish View Post
    Being able to decimate a raid tier within days of its release might be fun for a week for .001% of the WoW community as they race to world-first, but in the end, it really means very little and adds nothing to the spirit of the MMO when the only thing keeping you from killing a boss is the fact that Blizzard hasn't opened the door to his parlor just yet.
    But that's just it, for every guild that is steam-rolling through the content there is 100 guilds that are struggling through the content.
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  4. #4
    It was good and fun right up until the point where your main tank jumped ship for a more progressed guild, taking all the resist gear that your guild had worked so hard to make.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Inside View Post
    But that's just it, for every guild that is steam-rolling through the content there is 100 guilds that are struggling through the content.
    If not more
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H3-N9zoI5c Amazing video of 60+ devilsaurs raiding Undercity!


    My God, what a horrible creation. People seeing what they want? Thank God they tried to shy away from that. I know it pisses me off when I'm in an heroic raid, yet in the back of my head all I can think is 'some casual player is playing a heroic dungeon and not wiping.' -Vodkarn

  6. #6
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
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    They could make it less boring and work it into the dailies. As for bag space for all the resist gear, the solution (which I cant believe they havent added yet) is to have storage pages for multiple gear sets, so you dont have to carry around your pvp gear ect.

    One of wows cripplingly annoying flaws is item space.

  7. #7
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    This is a death that I approve of. Having to farm stuff for resistance gear is not exactly fun.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    It was good and fun right up until the point where your main tank jumped ship for a more progressed guild, taking all the resist gear that your guild had worked so hard to make.
    So true. It was a massive set back to my guild when we lost a tank to another guild while working on Ragnaros. Also, it was very frustrating in a 40 man to have to continually farm the Onyxia scale cloaks for the endless stream of new recruits while progressing through BWL.

    Never enjoyed this aspect of the original game and was certainly glad when it disappeared with BC.

  9. #9
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    I don't believe that resistance gear was a valued feature, Hydross was my worst experience with it. I busted my ass as my shitty guilds MT to have full resist gear to encourage doing it, on that fight it was *purely* the tanks who needed it, but because the other tank(s) never could be fucked to do it we never even did Hydross because it could technically be skipped.

    By the time we did mother in BC it was nerfed beyond needing resist gear so thats a bad reference, fuck 3.0 man.

    Point is, should it be an 'optional' encounter requiring resist gear, don't underestimate how many guilds will just fuck it off and never see the content. People did do that and would do it again should it be reintroduced.

    Should it be forced upon them then people will throw tauntrums at the difficulty of gearing 25 mans vs 10s and similar.

    Also remember that the idea of resist gear was dropping DPS stats in favour of survivability. And GC's model has every fight having an enrage timer no longer than what a sim says should be doable. Resistance fights go against that design and would be a situation of "in week 1 there simply isn't enough gear to meet DPS checks with resist gear" or introducing the need for guilds to brute force it without said gear. Lots of examples of that in t14. Gara'jal required 4 healers, SK required 3, whenever the DPS check goes up, the number of healers go down.

    It was a solid method of gating, that's what it was there for to begin with, but in the modern game I don't think it would work.

  10. #10
    Dreadlord Rivyr's Avatar
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    Numbers and time > control and exacution hurt the raiding community. It took a big swing away from raiding with your friends to raiding with the people who do the most damage. I hear it all the time from guild leaders "So and so is rather annoying or arrogant but we keep them around becuse they do good numbers." Its been a long time since I heard "We raid with this person becuse they are just a good person all around who knows how to utalize their class properly."

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Slummish View Post
    Being able to decimate a raid tier within days of its release might be fun for a week for .001% of the WoW community as they race to world-first, but in the end, it really means very little and adds nothing to the spirit of the MMO when the only thing keeping you from killing a boss is the fact that Blizzard hasn't opened the door to his parlor just yet.
    Yeah, that .001% of the community that it's fun for are the only ones capable of "being able to decimate a raid tier within days of its release." We can have a discussion about the merits of soft gating mechanics as opposed to hard gates, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking that percentage of people that have killed even normal Lei Shen compared to normal Jin'rokh is anywhere near high. It's at 10% right now (source: wowprogress.com) 3 weeks after release, and keep in mind that's only the raiding population. Hell, less than 50% of the people that have killed Jin'rokh have managed to down Council after 3 weeks. It really muddies up your point when you make a gross hyperbole like that.

  12. #12
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Oh the fun to MC mobs in LBRS to buff the raid for 30 mins with Fire res and then wipe on a crappy pull at Raggy....
    Oh the fun to know you must defeat Lucifron for 4 weeks before you have a tranq shot rotation for Mag.
    Oh the fun to skip Hydross for weeks until you had the res gear

    Really? Already in BT ppl were buying the HoD from other guilds at insane prices to get past Mother Shaz...gueyy Blizz should have made those BoP to delay the guilds artificially more. You really think that builds community? I say it frustrates...
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  13. #13
    Moderator Azshira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Oh the fun to MC mobs in LBRS to buff the raid for 30 mins with Fire res and then wipe on a crappy pull at Raggy....
    Oh the fun to know you must defeat Lucifron for 4 weeks before you have a tranq shot rotation for Mag.
    Oh the fun to skip Hydross for weeks until you had the res gear

    Really? Already in BT ppl were buying the HoD from other guilds at insane prices to get past Mother Shaz...gueyy Blizz should have made those BoP to delay the guilds artificially more. You really think that builds community? I say it frustrates...
    I concur and remember those times very well. I didn't mind the HoD though oddly enough... guess it made trash some bit more exciting.... lol.
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  14. #14
    Pandaren Monk Slummish's Avatar
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    I guess my experiences were a bit different. Working toward a the common goal of gearing was something that built camaraderie. I still have regular Ventrilo sessions with people from my first raiding and hardcore raiding guilds even though we haven't seen each others' toons in-game in a number of years.

    Every fiery core or heart of darkness that popped evoked a low cheer from the group because it meant we were one step closer to resistance. Needing specific guildies to log in because only they could craft a certain piece of gear brought about anticipation and appreciation for their professions. Impromptu late-night trash farming sessions from the dedicated few in search of resistance-gear mats was met with Christmas morning-like joy when a new piece of resistance gear was waiting for its new owner to log in.

    I suppose it has to do with the sorts of people one associates himself with.

    While I do remember the constant attempts by other guilds to poach well-geared main tanks, my only experience with anyone jumping ship came from a main healer during Ulduar that bailed with all of our Val'anyr fragments... and even then, no one cared because the bastard joined a guild where he became the lowest man on the totem pole and never did finish his mace...

    As for the commentary regarding the steamrolling of content, there's nothing I can contribute. That's a different argument altogether; but I would have quit WoW years ago if we'd have been able to zone into a new tier and have it on farm (even after extensive PTR practice sessions) in a week...

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivyr View Post
    Numbers and time > control and exacution hurt the raiding community. It took a big swing away from raiding with your friends to raiding with the people who do the most damage. I hear it all the time from guild leaders "So and so is rather annoying or arrogant but we keep them around becuse they do good numbers." Its been a long time since I heard "We raid with this person becuse they are just a good person all around who knows how to utalize their class properly."
    There's a normal mode Horridon advice thread up and one of advice was about replacing people. Even though I'm sure the tank wasn't very good, it's pretty clear that raiding has become about kicking friends and bringing asshats who can just play better. Or, if you prefer, you can struggle on the fight for 100 wipes like we did.

    Resistance gear was pretty awful. Remember we made everbody farm it for Huhu. The mages did great. They were the ones who were told not to wear it. The people who should have wore it, didn't farm it. Yah, good times. I definitely don't miss the Resistance grind.

  16. #16
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    Gating based on RNG drops to reach an arbitrary plateau of resist was 1) long and tedious, 2) required no skill, and 3) bored me to tears. There was literally no reason to gate content this way except to make it impossible to kill Y boss without farming X boss a certain number of times.

    I think Blizz saw with all the shaman poaching on M'uru that such a model of attunement/gear gating was not the way to go. M'uru literally killed guilds.

  17. #17
    Herald of the Titans Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Short answer: Resistance gearing sucked.

    Long answer: Resistance gearing REEALLY REEEEEEALLY sucked.

    You spent long hours and wasted a ton of time that could be otherwise used to kill progression bosses crafting up particular sets of gear that were used FOR ONE OR TWO ENCOUNTERS. Then you shelved it as soon as the next tier came along and you never used it again because you had to craft a set of totally different resistance.

    You know what's really not fun? Nerfing all the fun shit of progressing in gear (bigger attacks, stronger heals, beefier defences) for a handful of fights because the gear you needed to beat them was purely resistance.

    Resistance fights are long dead, and I'll safely and confidently say that most people who were a part of it were happy to jog them on with a firmly-upraised middle finger.
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  18. #18
    I loved them.

    I'll miss resistance gear fights. It was fun to need to farm and acquire a specific gearset for specific fights. It added some spice and diversity. It was fun to throw away your 'usual set' for something because it had very specific requirements. Even just being in (vanilla) Sapphirons presence needed preparation, how cool is that?

    It made you feel good, to have met necessary special requirements to access/see/defeat a boss.

    Some of the 'problems' with resistance fights were moreso the way the earlier ones were introduced. For eg for the world dragons and Huhuran, many of the best items were originally just on the world bosses. And for anyone who actually played back then, they'll know what issues this caused. Other resistance sets were implemented just fine (eg Shadow set for Hearts of Darkness).

    Some people here, like the above poster, are finding a happy medium between naive and stupid. Thanks for the laughs. I suspect you started playing in Wrath or later ("Gimme easy epix pls"), so I won't elaborate on the inaccuracies of your post.
    Last edited by TyrianFC; 2013-03-28 at 07:31 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Even just being in (vanilla) Sapphirons presence needed preparation, how cool is that?
    Very cool if I was actually Sapphiron, not cool at all if I'm the adventurer. I'd rather prepare for harder mechanics, complex fights and tighter dps checks compared to resistance gear. But it's a personal preference really, some people loved resistance checks, attunements and things like that, while for some they're just nuisance.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Slummish View Post
    Being able to decimate a raid tier within days of its release might be fun for a week for .001% of the WoW community as they race to world-first, but in the end, it really means very little and adds nothing to the spirit of the MMO when the only thing keeping you from killing a boss is the fact that Blizzard hasn't opened the door to his parlor just yet.
    Less than 10% of the raiding population has cleared the new raid in normal mode, and nobody has cleared the raid in heroic mode yet.

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