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  1. #21
    Field Marshal justjimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmittay View Post
    Fair enough, though I see one flaw in his logic: if he ends up destroying everything with his Burning Legion, wouldn't the only thing left be the Burning Legion?
    Logic? Away with you! :P
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    It's not that he couldn't win against any individual race, but think of it this way. What happens when you decimate one race and then two Demonic races arise?
    Obviously, you destroy the two and be done with it. But now four more have spawned.
    Kill the four. Now eight have come to life.
    It was the never ending cycle of corruption that drove Sargeras mad. So he created the Burning Legion as a means to destroy everything so that the corruption wouldn't perpetuate. He became the force creating the Demonic races and controlling the most powerful ones.
    Who needs to worry about the creation of two more Demonic races when you just start annihilating planets with your armies to ensure the spawning doesn't happen unless you know about it?
    no.... do you even know what sargeras goal is? he wants to destory the universe and return it to chaos.

    he WANTS the corruption to perpetuate, he believes that the titans are wrong and that chaos is the universes true nature and that trying to force it to divert from that is blasphemy.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 03:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmittay View Post
    Fair enough, though I see one flaw in his logic: if he ends up destroying everything with his Burning Legion, wouldn't the only thing left be the Burning Legion?
    thats essentially what he wants
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

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  3. #23
    Immortal Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The titans went toe-to-toe against the old gods and beat them 5-0. I think a titan, especially one as powerful as Sargeras, with the burning legion behind him, would be more than a match for the old gods.

    I believe the character "musing" that the old gods were more powerful than the Legion was Rhonin... who is by no means omniscient.
    Yes, but didn't the titans have to gang up on the old gods to kill them 2-3 titans to one old god.
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  4. #24
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmittay View Post
    Fair enough, though I see one flaw in his logic: if he ends up destroying everything with his Burning Legion, wouldn't the only thing left be the Burning Legion?
    His ultimate goal is to cause the universe to collapse on itself, meaning bye-bye... everything. No burning legion, no nothing.

    And then finally the Universe will be alright, because it doesn't exist... or something like that.

    No one ever claimed Sargeras was on his rocker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Yes, but didn't the titans have to gang up on the old gods to kill them 2-3 titans to one old god.
    We've never had any sort of presentation about how the fights went down. All we know is that the old gods got curb stomped, and the titans came away fairly unharmed.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  5. #25
    also to further prove my point that sargeras isnt as strong as you think, had archimonde absorbed the power of the world tree he wouldve been stronger than sargeras this has been confirmed as a fact.

    if the titans can create the well of eternity and a tree that has soaked up the power of a mere remnant of the original well and that tree plus archimonde would make him stronger than sargeras? then of course sargeras isnt stronger than all of the titans combined.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 03:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    His ultimate goal is to cause the universe to collapse on itself, meaning bye-bye... everything. No burning legion, no nothing.

    And then finally the Universe will be alright, because it doesn't exist... or something like that.

    No one ever claimed Sargeras was on his rocker.



    We've never had any sort of presentation about how the fights went down. All we know is that the old gods got curb stomped, and the titans came away fairly unharmed.
    its still a bit unclear, in some stories it just says he wants to return it to chaos in others it says he wants to destroy everything.
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

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  6. #26
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    its still a bit unclear, in some stories it just says he wants to return it to chaos in others it says he wants to destroy everything.
    Well, at that point the only things around would be the demons... eating one another, or something?
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  7. #27
    Saurfang can tear him to pieces. Even his brother, Broxx wounded him. Why do you think he hasn't been seen since then?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Well, at that point the only things around would be the demons... eating one another, or something?
    probably, they would probably start a civil war at first as the smarter demons try to control the lesser ones
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    no... thats not why he created he burning legion at all..... since letting the demons run rampant would be a good thing... since he you know... wanted to destroy the universe and return it to chaos... he created the legion to destroy the titans, also the titans killed ALOT of old gods, they didnt need an army to kill them they needed an army to imprison them this has been known since before mists even came out, if all they wanted to do was kill them they couldve done that but killing an old god taints the planet the titans didnt want that to happen.

    also no only one demon species is known to reincarnate after death, the nathrezim all other demons die just like anyone else when killed. people keep getting avatars and demons mixed up, most demons come to planets as avatars since it takes longer and more power to fully summon something when you kill an avatar the spirit returns to the body, if a demon is fully summoned and then killed then they die forever which is why archimonde is dead, the only demons that do come back to life is the nathrezim for some reason they can only die if killed on their home planet.

    sargeras was killing demons in the twisting nether which means the vast majority of them were weak since the vast majority of demons arent that strong and only have strength in numbers.

    again sargeras is just the strongest titan he isnt anywhere near as powerful as all of them or their armies which is why he created the burning legion he knew he would need help if he wanted to stop the titans that he couldnt do it alone.
    1) That is a silly statement. Having a centralized power is more efficient than letting the races run rampant.
    2) He didn't want to return it to chaos, he wanted to end the chaos via annihilating all life.
    3) It has never been stated that he had a vendetta against the Titans, in fact it seems that the Titans are more concerned about him than he is about them from the way Metzen talks about them.
    4) No proof of this means your point is moot and has no bearing. You do not imprison that which you can destroy without good reason, which no good reason has yet to be concretely given. It is assumed by most that the Titans could not kill them.
    5) Your logic continues to be folly and poorly thought out.
    6) The only thing that has been confirmed prior to MoP was that the Titans imprisoned the Old Gods who cursed their creations with the Curse of Flesh. Your argument would be convincing had Algalon not openly said that the Makers, the Titans, would have no problem re-originating the planet, effectively killing all life.
    7) That old theory has been around since TBC and has never been substantiated.
    8) This is assumed, but it is also known that the Dread Lords have a sibling race which has not been shown in game yet, you can find them on any WoW wiki if you look in related articles. We, also, do not know enough about the Burning Legion to say whether all Demon races die like mortals. Claiming so would be folly.
    9) Only Sargeras' avatar has ever been mentioned coming to Azeroth. Every other Demon uses a herald, at most.
    10) When you kill an Avatar, the spirit in the Avatar does what it was meant to. You are thinking of Sargeras' avatar. The only one seen to date, which was sent to die and corrupt Medivh.
    11) No, Archimonde is most likely permanently dead because he was not born a Demon. Even then, it is speculation.
    12) No, the lore was that they could only die if killed by another Dread Lord, which has obviously been a lie since the Dread Lords that Varimathras killed are coming back; see Scarlet Commander.
    13) To continue with my witty sarcasm, you are the epitome of well thought out ideas. Why would these Demons be weak, per say?
    14) Demons are not known to only be strong in hoards. See Mannoroth, Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, for instance. Hell, look at their races. The Pit Lords and Eredar are both powerful races who spawn entities as strong or more powerful than most mortal heroes.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 07:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmittay View Post
    Fair enough, though I see one flaw in his logic: if he ends up destroying everything with his Burning Legion, wouldn't the only thing left be the Burning Legion?
    Yes, but what is there for them to corrupt to continue spawning more? Would it not be trivial for him to annihilate the now contained problem?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 07:35 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    no.... do you even know what sargeras goal is? he wants to destory the universe and return it to chaos.

    he WANTS the corruption to perpetuate, he believes that the titans are wrong and that chaos is the universes true nature and that trying to force it to divert from that is blasphemy.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 03:22 AM ----------



    thats essentially what he wants
    I don't think you even know what the lore is, man. Everything you have stated has either been miss-quoted, applied incorrectly, or wrong.
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    1) That is a silly statement. Having a centralized power is more efficient than letting the races run rampant.
    2) He didn't want to return it to chaos, he wanted to end the chaos via annihilating all life.
    3) It has never been stated that he had a vendetta against the Titans, in fact it seems that the Titans are more concerned about him than he is about them from the way Metzen talks about them.
    4) No proof of this means your point is moot and has no bearing. You do not imprison that which you can destroy without good reason, which no good reason has yet to be concretely given. It is assumed by most that the Titans could not kill them.
    5) Your logic continues to be folly and poorly thought out.
    6) The only thing that has been confirmed prior to MoP was that the Titans imprisoned the Old Gods who cursed their creations with the Curse of Flesh. Your argument would be convincing had Algalon not openly said that the Makers, the Titans, would have no problem re-originating the planet, effectively killing all life.
    7) That old theory has been around since TBC and has never been substantiated.
    8) This is assumed, but it is also known that the Dread Lords have a sibling race which has not been shown in game yet, you can find them on any WoW wiki if you look in related articles. We, also, do not know enough about the Burning Legion to say whether all Demon races die like mortals. Claiming so would be folly.
    9) Only Sargeras' avatar has ever been mentioned coming to Azeroth. Every other Demon uses a herald, at most.
    10) When you kill an Avatar, the spirit in the Avatar does what it was meant to. You are thinking of Sargeras' avatar. The only one seen to date, which was sent to die and corrupt Medivh.
    11) No, Archimonde is most likely permanently dead because he was not born a Demon. Even then, it is speculation.
    12) No, the lore was that they could only die if killed by another Dread Lord, which has obviously been a lie since the Dread Lords that Varimathras killed are coming back; see Scarlet Commander.
    13) To continue with my witty sarcasm, you are the epitome of well thought out ideas. Why would these Demons be weak, per say?
    14) Demons are not known to only be strong in hoards. See Mannoroth, Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, for instance. Hell, look at their races. The Pit Lords and Eredar are both powerful races who spawn entities as strong or more powerful than most mortal heroes.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 07:34 AM ----------



    Yes, but what is there for them to corrupt to continue spawning more? Would it not be trivial for him to annihilate the now contained problem?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 07:35 AM ----------



    I don't think you even know what the lore is, man. Everything you have stated has either been miss-quoted, applied incorrectly, or wrong.
    its obvious you havent been keeping up with the lore. dont argue lore if you dont know it
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    also to further prove my point that sargeras isnt as strong as you think, had archimonde absorbed the power of the world tree he wouldve been stronger than sargeras this has been confirmed as a fact.

    if the titans can create the well of eternity and a tree that has soaked up the power of a mere remnant of the original well and that tree plus archimonde would make him stronger than sargeras? then of course sargeras isnt stronger than all of the titans combined.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 03:26 AM ----------



    its still a bit unclear, in some stories it just says he wants to return it to chaos in others it says he wants to destroy everything.
    That isn't even a thing. No one from Blizzard or any lore has ever said that Archimonde would be more powerful than Sargeras. If the tree had this power, Kil'jaeden would have had first dibs, being the Legions current commander with Sargeras being MIA.
    There is also no story saying that he wants chaos. Just the end of everything.
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  12. #32
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    4) No proof of this means your point is moot and has no bearing. You do not imprison that which you can destroy without good reason, which no good reason has yet to be concretely given. It is assumed by most that the Titans could not kill them.
    The titans can kill old gods. They killed Y'shaarj dead.
    6) The only thing that has been confirmed prior to MoP was that the Titans imprisoned the Old Gods who cursed their creations with the Curse of Flesh. Your argument would be convincing had Algalon not openly said that the Makers, the Titans, would have no problem re-originating the planet, effectively killing all life.
    The titans saw re-originating Azeroth as a last resort; specifically if its continued existence threatened other planets; i.e, the Burning Legion had taken it over and were using it as a hub, or the Old gods had completely regained control.

    7) That old theory has been around since TBC and has never been substantiated.
    If you're referring to the "old gods tainting a planet upon death," it has been substantiated. Look at the sha.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    its obvious you havent been keeping up with the lore. dont argue lore if you dont know it
    The problem is that you don't know the lore and are spouting old theories which were debunked in like TBC. You don't know the lore, which is why I correct you. You're either being willingly blind or purposely misleading for people who legitimately want to know more.
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Well, at that point the only things around would be the demons... eating one another, or something?
    Dont forget that the deamons are creatures of the twisting nether, that precedes the Titans's universe. So when the universe is destroyed, they will went back to the twisting nether, which seems to be Sargeras's goal. Titans are also creatures originating from the twisting nether. They are just powerful enough to create their own universe, and caring enought to try to preserve it. Although why they are missing from so many millenias while Sargeras decimates their creation is unknown.

    Is there something more powerful than Sargeras? Surely there is. Somewhere in the twisting nether something created the titans in the first place, because this is how things work. Bring it to Azeroth? Bad idea, 'cause no player will take any pleasure in killing something he doesn't know of. Make Sargeras the ultimate boss in WoW, bring him to us so that we can kill him and then move on to the next project .

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    The problem is that you don't know the lore and are spouting old theories which were debunked in like TBC. You don't know the lore, which is why I correct you. You're either being willingly blind or purposely misleading for people who legitimately want to know more.
    no im not spouting any "theories" maybe you should pay more attention to interviews and lore q&as
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The titans can kill old gods. They killed Y'shaarj dead.

    The titans saw re-originating Azeroth as a last resort; specifically if its continued existence threatened other planets; i.e, the Burning Legion had taken it over and were using it as a hub, or the Old gods had completely regained control.



    If you're referring to the "old gods tainting a planet upon death," it has been substantiated. Look at the sha.
    1) It is assumed that he is dead, keep in mind that C'thun was also "dead" as far as the Titans were concerned.
    2) Re-origination was still an option, that's the problem. The Old Gods are an immediate threat, and the Legion did not even know that Azeroth existed at the time of the Old Gods. Hell, Sargeras didn't even know.
    3) The Sha are spawned by the emotions of people who live on the land. The emotions they were not blessed with from the Titans. Their corruption is caused by the strife of the "lesser races," like humans and orcs. The Old Gods, themselves, are not directly in control.
    4) Was there not also supposed connections between the Burning Legion and the Sha? I know the Old Gods had connections with the Mantid, but I think that there was something about the Mogu and the Legion.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 07:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    no im not spouting any "theories" maybe you should pay more attention to interviews and lore q&as
    I do.
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  17. #37
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    1) It is assumed that he is dead, keep in mind that C'thun was also "dead" as far as the Titans were concerned.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Y'shaarj breathed love and exhaled hate, inhaled peace and breathed violence... Plus, his name was y'SHAarj. It's pretty safe to connect the dots. :smileyhappy: But Y'shaarj itself is very, very, very dead.
    Source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...-Developer-Q-A

    The titans killed him. There is no doubt that he is dead. Ergo, the titans can kill an old god.

    2) Re-origination was still an option, that's the problem. The Old Gods are an immediate threat, and the Legion did not even know that Azeroth existed at the time of the Old Gods. Hell, Sargeras didn't even know.
    3) The Sha are spawned by the emotions of people who live on the land. The emotions they were not blessed with from the Titans. Their corruption is caused by the strife of the "lesser races," like humans and orcs. The Old Gods, themselves, are not directly in control.
    4) Was there not also supposed connections between the Burning Legion and the Sha? I know the Old Gods had connections with the Mantid, but I think that there was something about the Mogu and the Legion.
    The sha originally came from the old god Y'SHAarj. Y'shaarj's lingering essence, the sha, just happened to prey off of emotions.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Y'shaarj breathed love and exhaled hate, inhaled peace and breathed violence... Plus, his name was y'SHAarj. It's pretty safe to connect the dots. :smileyhappy: But Y'shaarj itself is very, very, very dead.
    Source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...-Developer-Q-A

    The titans killed him. There is no doubt that he is dead. Ergo, the titans can kill an old god.



    The sha originally came from the old god Y'SHAarj. Y'shaarj's lingering essence, the sha, just happened to prey off of emotions.
    Aight, I must have overlooked that. I shall concede this point.
    But it seems a tad odd that they did not destroy him completely. One would think that the Titans would have taken precautions to have contained the Sha better.
    It states in the post that the Sha are shadows of his former self. Perhaps this is a reproductive engine of the Old Gods. Or maybe this is why they decided on containment.
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    1) It is assumed that he is dead, keep in mind that C'thun was also "dead" as far as the Titans were concerned.
    2) Re-origination was still an option, that's the problem. The Old Gods are an immediate threat, and the Legion did not even know that Azeroth existed at the time of the Old Gods. Hell, Sargeras didn't even know.
    3) The Sha are spawned by the emotions of people who live on the land. The emotions they were not blessed with from the Titans. Their corruption is caused by the strife of the "lesser races," like humans and orcs. The Old Gods, themselves, are not directly in control.
    4) Was there not also supposed connections between the Burning Legion and the Sha? I know the Old Gods had connections with the Mantid, but I think that there was something about the Mogu and the Legion.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 07:45 AM ----------



    I do.
    do you not even play wow anymore? the mogu were the armies of the titans who after being afflicted by the curse of the flesh overthrew the watcher who was in charge of them because they decided they could do their "gods" work better than them.
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  20. #40
    Old Gods lost because they never really acted as a unified force, while the Titans obviously were obviously a unified force at this point.

    "For those that called for the revelation of my own favored pairing, I am most intrigued by the relationship between C’Thun, Yogg-Saron, and N’Zoth. Their glory was also the root of their momentary defeat; that the Pantheon, united, only barely triumphed over my eldritch masters, divided, speaks to their power and incomprehensible existence."


    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...7180?page=2#27

    Though this is pretty much a retcon (Old Warcraft Lore books tell the story as the Old Gods were united) it would make sense that a Single Old God is > a Single Titan, but the Titans won because they were united and not divided like the Old Gods.

    After all, an Alliance between beings that embody Chaos and Madness would be a quite a paradox.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

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