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  1. #1
    Blademaster
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    Something Greater and more Powerful than Sargeras?

    "C’Thun has been wakening for some time. He recently woke completely and physically returned to Azeroth. He now lairs in the ruins of Ahn'Qiraj, and packs of brave heroes have already begun to form and venture into the ruins. At some point during his stewardship of Ulduar, Loken came under the sway of Yogg-Saron imprisoned within and eventually betrayed both the Pantheon and his own brother, Thorim. He resides in Ulduar's Halls of Lightning, seeking to free Yogg-Saron completely. According to Malfurion Stormrage, one of the Old Gods is behind the Nightmare corrupting the Emerald Dream. Although the Nightmare Lord in the dream turned out to be the Satyr Lord Xavius, it is suspected that he acted on behalf of a power even greater and darker than Sargeras. This seems to be confirmed in World of Warcraft: Cataclysm."

    Is this already known? As I just found out of this tonight. What is greater and darker than Sargeras in the lore?

  2. #2
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    The titans went toe-to-toe against the old gods and beat them 5-0. I think a titan, especially one as powerful as Sargeras, with the burning legion behind him, would be more than a match for the old gods.

    I believe the character "musing" that the old gods were more powerful than the Legion was Rhonin... who is by no means omniscient.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  3. #3
    the old gods are the only species known to have ever killed a titan. we know there are old gods all throughout the universe. odds are if somethings stronger than sargeras its an old god
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

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  4. #4
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    the old gods are the only species known to have ever killed a titan. we know there are old gods all throughout the universe. odds are if somethings stronger than sargeras its an old god
    The titan was never proven to have actually died. A titan was defeated, yes, but they never said it died. In fact, the NPC you learn this little snippet of information from via a quest in silithus actually states it as such.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The titan was never proven to have actually died. A titan was defeated, yes, but they never said it died. In fact, the NPC you learn this little snippet of information from via a quest in silithus actually states it as such.
    still, we know the old gods have an empire somewhere out in space and we know they fight the legion. for all we know the old gods on azeroth may be children compared to some of the other ones.
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  6. #6
    Please no. Sargeras has been built up as the big-bad since before WoW came out. I don't want some random being that we've never heard of before to be the ultimate big-bad.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Daelin Proudmoore View Post
    Please no. Sargeras has been built up as the big-bad since before WoW came out. I don't want some random being that we've never heard of before to be the ultimate big-bad.
    its unlikely that ANY titan is the most powerful being in the universe since the legendary questline implies that the titans were built by something else
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire Korgesh's Avatar
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    So far, with the lore we've got. The only thing more powerful than Saergeras is two Saergeras.

    Of course there's only one so, so far he's the strongest. He's the most powerful Titan, so until we find out if he's more powerful than the most powerful old god.

  9. #9
    Legendary! Evil Inside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    the old gods are the only species known to have ever killed a titan. we know there are old gods all throughout the universe. odds are if somethings stronger than sargeras its an old god
    However it was a lesser titan.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The titans went toe-to-toe against the old gods and beat them 5-0. I think a titan, especially one as powerful as Sargeras, with the burning legion behind him, would be more than a match for the old gods.

    I believe the character "musing" that the old gods were more powerful than the Legion was Rhonin... who is by no means omniscient.
    Sargeras was more powerful than the entire Pantheon and their armies. Keep in mind that he was their first AND last line of defense and had to combat the Demon hoards alone prior to his corruption.
    Metzen has also already stated that Sargeras is the most powerful entity in the Warcraft Universe, stating that he was essentially the "final boss" of Warcraft.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 06:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    its unlikely that ANY titan is the most powerful being in the universe since the legendary questline implies that the titans were built by something else
    Nothing constructed the Titans, it was that the Titans constructed the Heralds on Azeroth which are generally seen as Titans by those who don't completely understand the heavily retconned lore that is WoW. This incorrect information is spread around, unfortunately.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 06:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    still, we know the old gods have an empire somewhere out in space and we know they fight the legion. for all we know the old gods on azeroth may be children compared to some of the other ones.
    If anything, these Old Gods are probably the strongest, in that case. The Demons seem to take no heed of the Old Gods, and generally tend to look down upon them. I would also assume that due to the fact that the Legion is so expansive, they have probably learned how to kill Old Gods or at least indefinitely imprison them. The Old Gods could, as well, just be another species of Demon.
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    Sargeras was more powerful than the entire Pantheon and their armies. Keep in mind that he was their first AND last line of defense and had to combat the Demon hoards alone prior to his corruption.
    Metzen has also already stated that Sargeras is the most powerful entity in the Warcraft Universe, stating that he was essentially the "final boss" of Warcraft.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 06:55 AM ----------



    Nothing constructed the Titans, it was that the Titans constructed the Heralds on Azeroth which are generally seen as Titans by those who don't completely understand the heavily retconned lore that is WoW. This incorrect information is spread around, unfortunately.
    no, no he isnt. sargeras is just the strongest titan. he isnt anywhere near as strong as all of them and especially not as strong as them and their armies.... thats why he created the burning legion. thats the entire point of the burning legion. he needs them because he knows he isnt strong enough to take them on his own. if he was he wouldve just went and done it.

    the strongest beings in the warcraft universe is most likely some space old god or whatever created the titans. he also wasnt their "line of defense" he was just their champion, you know what they did when he went missing? they replaced him. each titan has a job, and when they dont do that job they get replaced
    Last edited by Immitis; 2013-03-28 at 07:00 AM.
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Orestes21 View Post
    "C’Thun has been wakening for some time. He recently woke completely and physically returned to Azeroth. He now lairs in the ruins of Ahn'Qiraj, and packs of brave heroes have already begun to form and venture into the ruins. At some point during his stewardship of Ulduar, Loken came under the sway of Yogg-Saron imprisoned within and eventually betrayed both the Pantheon and his own brother, Thorim. He resides in Ulduar's Halls of Lightning, seeking to free Yogg-Saron completely. According to Malfurion Stormrage, one of the Old Gods is behind the Nightmare corrupting the Emerald Dream. Although the Nightmare Lord in the dream turned out to be the Satyr Lord Xavius, it is suspected that he acted on behalf of a power even greater and darker than Sargeras. This seems to be confirmed in World of Warcraft: Cataclysm."

    Is this already known? As I just found out of this tonight. What is greater and darker than Sargeras in the lore?
    Keep in mind that Sargeras isn't actually a "dark" character. He is just mad, he thinks that what he is doing is a service to the Universe. He doesn't want to control, but to destroy so that the unending corruption in the Universe can end.
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  13. #13
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    still, we know the old gods have an empire somewhere out in space and we know they fight the legion. for all we know the old gods on azeroth may be children compared to some of the other ones.
    We don't know that the old gods have any sort of formal empire, beyond that they can inhabit other planets. They might be traveling parasites, or they might just naturally arise when Warcraftian planets form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin
    If anything, these Old Gods are probably the strongest, in that case. The Demons seem to take no heed of the Old Gods, and generally tend to look down upon them. I would also assume that due to the fact that the Legion is so expansive, they have probably learned how to kill Old Gods or at least indefinitely imprison them. The Old Gods could, as well, just be another species of Demon.
    The burning Legion would have no reason to imprison an old god over just killing them; they aren't particularly interested in preserving planets like the titans are.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    no, no he isnt. sargeras is just the strongest titan. he isnt anywhere near as strong as all of them and especially not as strong as them and their armies.... thats why he created the burning legion. thats the entire point of the burning legion. he needs them because he knows he isnt strong enough to take them on his own. if he was he wouldve just went and done it.

    the strongest beings in the warcraft universe is most likely some space old god or whatever created the titans
    He created the Burning Legion because he couldn't destroy it. It is specifically stated that Sargeras was not able to keep up with destroying the Demon armies as for every one he felled, multiple took its place. The Demon hoards are, literally, unending. He merely created the Burning Legion as a means to an ends, to seek out life and destroy life. It is not feasible for him to search for every source of life on his own, and the majority of known Demon races are corrupted races that are used to open portals for the Legion to come through.
    Find a world > Corrupt Inhabitants > Open Portal > Send in weaker Demons > Open Larger Portal > Send in Commanders
    Sargeras required the entire power of the Well of Eternity to keep a portal powerful enough for him to come through stable.

    Also, Sargeras has shown in lore that he is such a power. The Titans required armies to defeat the Old Gods and their minions, Sargeras fought the endless hoards of Demons and their commanders and ended up fighting a war of attrition that would not end, especially since many Demonic races reincarnate on death. Also, keep in mind, that Sargeras' power is not that of creation, his specialty is utter destruction. Hence why he is so powerful. He is also,obviously, not omnipotent as he does not know the location of every planet. How can he track down that which does not wish to be found? The Pantheon, as well, is NOT all the Titans, it is just a group of the few that had to do with the purging of the Old Gods.

    Old Gods have been shown to be weaker than they have been made up to be in their lore, and nothing has been said to have made the Titans. Nothing has even hinted that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 07:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The Burning Legion would have no reason to imprison an old god over just killing them; they aren't particularly interested in preserving planets like the titans are.
    Well, indefinite imprisonment would be required if there really was no actual way to kill them physically or spiritually.
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  15. #15
    Sooo...the strongest of the Titans fought against the Burning Legion and realised he couldn't win...who is creating the Burning Legion?

  16. #16
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post

    Well, indefinite imprisonment would be required if there really was no actual way to kill them physically or spiritually.
    You can kill old gods; the titans killed Y'shaarj (presumably their first kill) and found that he continued to taint the land with the Sha... It's assumed that that's the reason the Titans couldn't kill the other old gods without destroying, or at least, ruining, Azeroth, as they would produce a similar lingering force. I'm certain re-originating Azeroth would have gotten rid of the old gods lickety-split, but they didn't want to do that.

    But the Burning Legion really doesn't give half a care if the planet is rendered uninhabitable, or if they have to utterly destroy it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmittay View Post
    Sooo...the strongest of the Titans fought against the Burning Legion and realised he couldn't win...who is creating the Burning Legion?
    It's always been kind of vague, but I believe that the demons are just sort of... coalesced chaos energy that forms from the twisting nether. They're just a malefic oddity of the universe, like the old gods.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2013-03-28 at 07:17 AM.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    He created the Burning Legion because he couldn't destroy it. It is specifically stated that Sargeras was not able to keep up with destroying the Demon armies as for every one he felled, multiple took its place. The Demon hoards are, literally, unending. He merely created the Burning Legion as a means to an ends, to seek out life and destroy life. It is not feasible for him to search for every source of life on his own, and the majority of known Demon races are corrupted races that are used to open portals for the Legion to come through.
    Find a world > Corrupt Inhabitants > Open Portal > Send in weaker Demons > Open Larger Portal > Send in Commanders
    Sargeras required the entire power of the Well of Eternity to keep a portal powerful enough for him to come through stable.

    Also, Sargeras has shown in lore that he is such a power. The Titans required armies to defeat the Old Gods and their minions, Sargeras fought the endless hoards of Demons and their commanders and ended up fighting a war of attrition that would not end, especially since many Demonic races reincarnate on death. Also, keep in mind, that Sargeras' power is not that of creation, his specialty is utter destruction. Hence why he is so powerful. He is also,obviously, not omnipotent as he does not know the location of every planet. How can he track down that which does not wish to be found? The Pantheon, as well, is NOT all the Titans, it is just a group of the few that had to do with the purging of the Old Gods.

    Old Gods have been shown to be weaker than they have been made up to be in their lore, and nothing has been said to have made the Titans. Nothing has even hinted that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 07:07 AM ----------



    Well, indefinite imprisonment would be required if there really was no actual way to kill them physically or spiritually.
    no... thats not why he created he burning legion at all..... since letting the demons run rampant would be a good thing... since he you know... wanted to destroy the universe and return it to chaos... he created the legion to destroy the titans, also the titans killed ALOT of old gods, they didnt need an army to kill them they needed an army to imprison them this has been known since before mists even came out, if all they wanted to do was kill them they couldve done that but killing an old god taints the planet the titans didnt want that to happen.

    also no only one demon species is known to reincarnate after death, the nathrezim all other demons die just like anyone else when killed. people keep getting avatars and demons mixed up, most demons come to planets as avatars since it takes longer and more power to fully summon something when you kill an avatar the spirit returns to the body, if a demon is fully summoned and then killed then they die forever which is why archimonde is dead, the only demons that do come back to life is the nathrezim for some reason they can only die if killed on their home planet.

    sargeras was killing demons in the twisting nether which means the vast majority of them were weak since the vast majority of demons arent that strong and only have strength in numbers.

    again sargeras is just the strongest titan he isnt anywhere near as powerful as all of them or their armies which is why he created the burning legion he knew he would need help if he wanted to stop the titans that he couldnt do it alone.
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmittay View Post
    Sooo...the strongest of the Titans fought against the Burning Legion and realised he couldn't win...who is creating the Burning Legion?
    It's not that he couldn't win against any individual race, but think of it this way. What happens when you decimate one race and then two Demonic races arise?
    Obviously, you destroy the two and be done with it. But now four more have spawned.
    Kill the four. Now eight have come to life.
    It was the never ending cycle of corruption that drove Sargeras mad. So he created the Burning Legion as a means to destroy everything so that the corruption wouldn't perpetuate. He became the force creating the Demonic races and controlling the most powerful ones.
    Who needs to worry about the creation of two more Demonic races when you just start annihilating planets with your armies to ensure the spawning doesn't happen unless you know about it?
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  19. #19
    Fair enough, though I see one flaw in his logic: if he ends up destroying everything with his Burning Legion, wouldn't the only thing left be the Burning Legion?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmittay View Post
    Sooo...the strongest of the Titans fought against the Burning Legion and realised he couldn't win...who is creating the Burning Legion?
    imagine demons are like tribes of cavemen, most demons are like this just running around causing chaos, a few are different like the nathrezim which had an empire on xoroth, and the annihalon which were a bit like the gronn, enslaving or eating whatever they wanted out of brute strength. then imagine that sargeras is an alien and he groups all the little cavemen up together and makes them do his bidding.

    thats pretty much the burning legion
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

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