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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by bladebarrier View Post
    You lack logic. They are imprisoned for what, some million years? And suddenly, in a matter of few years they get free? If you ever played WotLK, you'd know that Yog'Saron is tainting the mind of Loken not long after Ulduar has been built. Which is in the end of the war between them and the titans. Similar connections can be found in the downfall of the Amani empire - the creature Hakkar is a minion of the old gods.

    So now, their presence is felt during all of the world's existance, but ceasing during the Legion's invasions. How do you interpret that?

    They NEVER got free.
    They're still imprisoned, Ulduar is a PRISON.
    Suddenly ? Nope, the titan watchers got corrupted after years and years of corruption by Yogg's whisps. It's the same for other old gods, we only noticed what they're doing after years and years of subtle corruption.
    And nothing says that Hakkar is a minion of the old gods, that's a speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    6.Many people said Old Gods were outnumbered but only source on this which is the in game book called "The Old Gods and the Ordering of Azeroth" stated that it was the Pantheon who was outnumbered with vast and endless armies of faceless ones and elemental lords's forces. Combined forces of The Old Gods and Elords were defeated by the titans.
    But they got created by the Old Gods, they're a part of their power, for exemple we wouldn't give warlock's credits to their demons.
    Last edited by Kuragalolz; 2013-03-28 at 12:12 PM.

  2. #62
    As far as we know, the Titans have always been in this universe/dimension/realm/plane/whatever, while Old Gods seem to have been summoned from somewhere else. If Blizzard wanted, they could start creating multiverses and alternative realities to expand Warcraft beyond time and space. But, in my opinion, that is weak storytelling and it gets old very quickly.
    English is not my first language, feel free to correct any mistake I may make.

  3. #63
    There is lore that states that the Old Gods have power that would make Sargeras seem as if he were nothing in comparison.

    There is also question as to what happened when the old god died, it says in the lore that an old god died and a titan fell, but fell does not specifically mean death. It could of been the moment that Sargeras fell, if Ra-den was his servant and the Mogu his troops and Sargeras witnessed that the act of destroying an Old God would only result in the release of the 7 sha then that could of been the moment of doubt that started him off on the path to becoming the fallen titan. That would lead to him finally realising in the battle against the demons that it was ultimately futile. This explains why Ra-den shut himself off and stopped giving orders to the Mogu, he saw his boss loose heart. The mogu went a long time without direction before Lei Shen took Ra-dens heart and reoorganized the Mogu Empire. Sargeras stopped giving orders so Ra-den stopped giving orders.

    But yes, the Old Gods are more powerful than Sargeras. Lets not forget that there are several Old Gods and 1 Sargeras.
    Last edited by DeadmanWalking; 2013-03-28 at 03:04 PM.

  4. #64
    Scarab Lord MasterOfKnees's Avatar
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    Sargeras' powers have been hyped up waaaay too much by the fanbase, never has it been stated that Sargeras was the strongest guy in all of Warcraft. As I've continously said, the Old Gods are being build up as the big baddies of Warcraft, Sargeras isn't.

  5. #65
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    The olds gods are (combined) stronger than the titans, even stronger than Sargeras

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 09:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    There is lore that states that the Old Gods have power that would make Sargeras seem as if he were nothing in comparison.

    There is also question as to what happened when the old god died, it says in the lore that an old god died and a titan fell, but fell does not specifically mean death. It could of been the moment that Sargeras fell, if Ra-den was his servant and the Mogu his troops and Sargeras witnessed that the act of destroying an Old God would only result in the release of the 7 sha then that could of been the moment of doubt that started him off on the path to becoming the fallen titan. That would lead to him finally realising in the battle against the demons that it was ultimately futile. This explains why Ra-den shut himself off and stopped giving orders to the Mogu, he saw his boss loose heart. The mogu went a long time without direction before Lei Shen took Ra-dens heart and reoorganized the Mogu Empire. Sargeras stopped giving orders so Ra-den stopped giving orders.

    But yes, the Old Gods are more powerful than Sargeras. Lets not forget that there are several Old Gods and 1 Sargeras.
    Well... C'thun killed one Titan:

    C'Thun was struck down in the region known as Silithus during the dawning of the world, in a battle which is said to also have resulted in the "falling" of a Titan. C'Thun was believed to have been slain permanently by the Titans, but the Old God resurfaced over the course of history as the driving force behind the Qiraji. It is trapped deep beneath the ruined temples of Ahn'Qiraj, where it has exerted its will for thousands of years over its Qiraji avatars, who in turn command the Silithid swarm.

    also Krasus said:

    Krasus speculated that should the Old Gods open the gates of their prison even Sargeras would find himself pleading for the peace of death.

  6. #66
    The Titans' last-ditch failsafe against the Old Gods breaking their chains and regaining their full power was to re-originate the planet. Kill every living thing, reduce the landscape to rubble, basically undo all the order they had created from chaos. This is the kind of option that gets taken because the situation could not possibly get any worse. If a Titan could just show up and trounce one or more full-powered Old Gods, that would be the failsafe. Not the re-origination device. The mere existence of this device and knowledge of its intended purpose should clue us in to the fact that the Titans really, really don't want to fight this battle again. They did not have an easy time of it. They did not enjoy themselves while doing it. It was grimy, bloody, horrible business.

    This is, of course, ignoring the other fact that N'zoth's plan to slip his bonds revolved around Deathwing getting his claws on the re-origination device and activating it. This means that N'zoth was 100% confident he would be able to survive the effects.

  7. #67
    Warchief Byniri's Avatar
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    I'd have to guess a 100%, unbound Old God could be more powerful than Sargeras.

    As others have stated, and Old God already defeated a Titan. Assuming that there ARE indeed Old Gods scattered throughout the Warcraft universe, it's likely that one of them is more powerful than Sargeras.
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  8. #68
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzudzadzo View Post
    With all due honesty but we as wow players learned more about Old Gods then we ever did about Sargeras, last expansion was pretty much Old God's army leaded by their strongest minion, Deathwing. Now you might say that TBC was all about the burning legion, but outside of Mark of Sargeras, Kil'Jaeden quote and presumibly Sargeras's own words during Undercity invasion, we know jack crap about him if we include WoW as main lore source, and yes I will say it, majority of WoW players use WoW game as their main lore source, no matter how much lore, info, pictures and stuff you put into books and other media, the primary lore source for your average joe is and will be the game.

    As it stands now:
    - We battled C'thun who mind raped you constantly in his raid. Only to see him come back agian proving that Old Gods simply do not stay dead.
    - Yogg-Saron who mind raped you even more and made enough mess to even force our hands agianst a Titan messanger (Good guy in scale of the universe) to save Azeorth and Old Gods along with it (I bet those Old Gods who knew about it laugh their tentacles, when 10/25 heroes put everything on the line to save them). Not to mention that Yogg-Saron was not permamentaly killed and still has the possibility to return once agian if he patches himself up quickly enough.
    - Next we also had to fight their probably strongest minion who was teeth's skin away from destroying entire Azeorth if it werent for all Aspects who sacrificed all their immortal powers. Basically we had to sacrifice Titan's last line of defense just to take out their single pawn which originated from that very line of defense itself.
    - And finally, if it werent for the Old Gods and their curse of flesh, all races of Azeroth would not even come to exist to play their twisted game.

    In summary:
    - We have to corpse camp an Old God.
    - spawn camp the other one after he made us enemies with the biggest good guys.
    - Lost one of our best Titan weapons (the aspects).
    - Live with the fact that they are our indirect creators due to curse of flesh.

    Not to mention the Sha, who grow more powerful the more angry/sad/proud/ their enemies are. Too strong to ignore, to durable to bother with.

    and the more we fight them the worse it gets.

    Sorry but from where I am looking at it, Old Gods are global scale master trolls who only get fed and fed the further fight with them drags on. They are like an advanced gangrene on a limb (Azeroth) where the only solution is to cut it off and throw away, while the host (Azeroth inhabitants) refuse to do so no matter how much worse and worse its gets. It's like constantly falling for the scorched earth tactic and refusing to learn from it.

    Whoever said that Sargeras is nothing compared to Old Gods was perhaps right?

    Also remenber that the Old Gods killed one Titan... so yeah... they are way stronger than Sargeras
    Last edited by Maxilian; 2013-03-28 at 03:58 PM.

  9. #69
    Warchief Byniri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxilian View Post
    Also remenber that the Old Gods were the one that made Sargeras crazy, also the Old Gods (Cthun) killed one Titan... so yeah... they are way stronger than Sargeras
    Uh...what?

    Is this a ret-con or something?

    It's the Nathrezim who corrupted Sargeras.
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  10. #70
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    The Titans' last-ditch failsafe against the Old Gods breaking their chains and regaining their full power was to re-originate the planet. Kill every living thing, reduce the landscape to rubble, basically undo all the order they had created from chaos. This is the kind of option that gets taken because the situation could not possibly get any worse. If a Titan could just show up and trounce one or more full-powered Old Gods, that would be the failsafe. Not the re-origination device. The mere existence of this device and knowledge of its intended purpose should clue us in to the fact that the Titans really, really don't want to fight this battle again. They did not have an easy time of it. They did not enjoy themselves while doing it. It was grimy, bloody, horrible business.

    This is, of course, ignoring the other fact that N'zoth's plan to slip his bonds revolved around Deathwing getting his claws on the re-origination device and activating it. This means that N'zoth was 100% confident he would be able to survive the effects.
    The re-originating system will not kill the Olds Gods, but it will destroy their armies and, in the end, they will have nothing to corrupt in the world, so it will make it easier to fight the old gods alone than figthing the Old Gods armies and them

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    The Titans' last-ditch failsafe against the Old Gods breaking their chains and regaining their full power was to re-originate the planet. Kill every living thing, reduce the landscape to rubble, basically undo all the order they had created from chaos. This is the kind of option that gets taken because the situation could not possibly get any worse. If a Titan could just show up and trounce one or more full-powered Old Gods, that would be the failsafe. Not the re-origination device. The mere existence of this device and knowledge of its intended purpose should clue us in to the fact that the Titans really, really don't want to fight this battle again. They did not have an easy time of it. They did not enjoy themselves while doing it. It was grimy, bloody, horrible business.

    This is, of course, ignoring the other fact that N'zoth's plan to slip his bonds revolved around Deathwing getting his claws on the re-origination device and activating it. This means that N'zoth was 100% confident he would be able to survive the effects.
    Or at least, confident he could survive it with his minions coopting it rather than it being used as intended. The existance of such a device also shows that they have the ability, without neccisarily even being present themselves, to obliterate Azeroth and probably the old gods with them, if not the re origination thing would be pointless.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  12. #72
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarl Balgruuf View Post
    Uh...what?

    Is this a ret-con or something?

    It's the Nathrezim who corrupted Sargeras.
    Yeah my bad, BTW it wasn't the Nathrezim that corrupted Sargeras, Sargeras got corrupted by the demons he destroyed...

    From wowpedia:

    During his never ending war against the evil in the universe, Sargeras became increasingly depressed by the chaos he saw wrought by all kinds of evil. While his confusion and misery deepened, Sargeras was forced to contend with several groups intent on disrupting the titans' order: the nathrezim, Mo'arg, and Infernals. The nefarious, scheming demons turned whole nations against one another by manipulating them into unthinking hatred and mistrust. Sargeras defeated them easily, but their corruption affected him deeply.

    Shaken by the evil of demons, Sargeras began to despair of his task and gradually slipped into a brooding depression. As doubt and despair overwhelmed Sargeras's senses, he lost all faith not only in his mission, but also in the titans' vision of an ordered universe. Eventually, he came to believe that the concept of order itself was folly, and that chaos and depravity were the only absolutes within the dark, lonely universe.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 10:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Or at least, confident he could survive it with his minions coopting it rather than it being used as intended. The existance of such a device also shows that they have the ability, without neccisarily even being present themselves, to obliterate Azeroth and probably the old gods with them, if not the re origination thing would be pointless.
    IMO the point of the Orgination device is to weaken the Old Gods, by destroying their armies and anything they could use against the Titans..., cause if it were so easy, why didn't the titans did that from the begging when they came for the first time to Azeroth and then started creating new lifes?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmittay View Post
    Fair enough, though I see one flaw in his logic: if he ends up destroying everything with his Burning Legion, wouldn't the only thing left be the Burning Legion?
    And then he sat and watched the demons fighting eachother to death, to his pleasure.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by maxilian View Post
    IMO the point of the Orgination device is to weaken the Old Gods, by destroying their armies and anything they could use against the Titans..., cause if it were so easy, why didn't the titans did that from the begging when they came for the first time to Azeroth and then started creating new lifes?
    It's entirely possible that simply blowing up the planet wouldn't even have killed the Old Gods. They would have just gone and infected some other world, or several worlds.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    As far as we know, the Titans have always been in this universe/dimension/realm/plane/whatever, while Old Gods seem to have been summoned from somewhere else. If Blizzard wanted, they could start creating multiverses and alternative realities to expand Warcraft beyond time and space. But, in my opinion, that is weak storytelling and it gets old very quickly.
    Old gods were here before titans came to Azeroth...

  16. #76
    I'd probably like to see something like -

    We kill Sargeras who is a Titan.

    Then the other Titans realize that we are now strong enough to be a threat to them.

    They implement a command code to destroy all life on Azeroth to eliminate any threat against them.

    The Old Gods rise up to fight the Titans.

    In the middle of the war between the two forces, the mortal races are doing everything they can to survive and once the final battle ends between the two forces, we come together to finish off whoever's left.

    Then WoW ends with the mortal races as the masters of their own destiny.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    no... thats not why he created he burning legion at all..... since letting the demons run rampant would be a good thing... since he you know... wanted to destroy the universe and return it to chaos... he created the legion to destroy the titans, also the titans killed ALOT of old gods, they didnt need an army to kill them they needed an army to imprison them this has been known since before mists even came out, if all they wanted to do was kill them they couldve done that but killing an old god taints the planet the titans didnt want that to happen.

    also no only one demon species is known to reincarnate after death, the nathrezim all other demons die just like anyone else when killed. people keep getting avatars and demons mixed up, most demons come to planets as avatars since it takes longer and more power to fully summon something when you kill an avatar the spirit returns to the body, if a demon is fully summoned and then killed then they die forever which is why archimonde is dead, the only demons that do come back to life is the nathrezim for some reason they can only die if killed on their home planet.

    sargeras was killing demons in the twisting nether which means the vast majority of them were weak since the vast majority of demons arent that strong and only have strength in numbers.

    again sargeras is just the strongest titan he isnt anywhere near as powerful as all of them or their armies which is why he created the burning legion he knew he would need help if he wanted to stop the titans that he couldnt do it alone.
    Have a citation that says his goal is to destroy the titans? Last I checked his goal was to unmake the universe and their sense of order because he disagreed with it.

  18. #78
    Some people mentioned that Y'Saarj was killed by a titan and use it as a source that the titans would defeat the Old Gods in an all out war. But it is very questionable if Y'Saarj's death is permanent. While I remember some statement (I think it was a blue post) saying that Y'Saarj would be dead-dead, we know that at least for some demons, death only results in the temporary loss of their physical form. I also think that it is highly questionable to refer to the outcome of the battle between the titan and Y'Saarj as the "death" of the Old God, considering we got told that "they do not live, they do not die. They are outside the circle". So while there are no signs of the current status of Y'Saarj, we know that the Mantid still worship him (or other Old Gods), which could mean that they know that his death is only temporary and he will return (or that there is a way to revive him).

    You also have to remember that Sargeras was wounded by a mortal hero, and while we did the same against the Old Gods (propably only scratched the Old Gods, same as what happened to Sargeras), it's unknown lore-wise how strong our characters really are.

  19. #79
    I don't quite understand the fascination with power levels and 'who's the strongest good/bad guy'. At a certain level of power discrepancy the relation between two beings becomes a binary one, being that the only meaningful interaction that the stronger can have is either annihilation of the weaker or leaving it pretty much alone. I don't imagine that an expansion with Sargeras in it would be very engaging because the 'villain' would simply be this huge monolithic figure that is about to stomp on the little ant hill that is Azeroth. It seems like Blizzard didn't consider DW a very engaging villain compared to say the LK or even Garrosh, seems like this time around players look forward to taking down Garrosh whereas DW was just sort of 'well i guess we will get around to it eventually.'
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
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    Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

  20. #80
    Didn't it take the combined power of the titans to defeat an old god? If so, I could definitely see how a fully awaken/freed old god is most powerful. Of course, as far as we know, all the old gods are weakened and imprisoned so I can understand why Sargeras is currently regarded as number 1.

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