Doors open to flat out Transgender discrimination laws in AZ

[Uennie]

No, no it does not.


Has nothing to do with sexuality. Cis is the opposite of Trans.

Am I thinking of something else? Oops sorry about that >____________>; ... I'm pretty bad at whatever. You know. It was my fault. I can't keep anything straight.

[Jilor]

I would say the opposite is true. Violations of liberty without a corresponding protection of liberty (preventing someone from killing people to protect the liberty of those others not to be randomly killed for example) cannot be justified by social cohesion or just about anything else.


What liberty does any person have to force an employer who does not wish to hire them, to hire them? What liberty does any person have to force a business or individual who does not wish to conduct commerce with them, to conduct commerce with them? What liberty does any person have to force an entity that does not wish to associate with them, to associate with them? The answer is none and in fact the business, employer, individual, or entity all have the liberty to decide who they hire, associate with, or conduct business with just as the individual they do not want to hire, associate with, or conduct business with has the liberty to choose not to hire, associate with, or conduct business with any of them. All parties have their equal liberty in such a case. That is a free society.


From what I understand, the law simply legalizes discrimination; it does not force it on anyone. If anyone was forced to discriminate, then liberty would be violated and I would be against the law.

On the middle paragraph...so, at what point do you say it's too much? If they can discriminate against trans people, what about African-Americans or Hispanics or women or any other group of people? Discrimination should not be tolerated in a civilized society. Saying it's OK only allows hatred to grow. I don't know what race/gender/etc you are, but imagine if people were legally allowed to discriminate against you. Say that no grocery store would allow you entry in to their building. That because the law says it's OK to discriminate, you can't eat. Is that really OK to you? I'm glad the majority of America does not agree with your opinions, as many laws, especially over the last century, have been passed to stop discrimination. It's really sad if you think discrimination is a right and is OK.

[Kelesti]

This is ignorant on so many levels, but lets go over why it's wrong. It's wrong for a number of reasons, but let's go down the list.

For one: Whats it even matter if they have or haven't had the operation? Exposing themselves is a crime either way, no matter what bits are down there.

For two: "The Operation" is obscenely expensive, seldom covered by insurance (more discrimination - this isn't a "Whim" people have, it's to alleviate Gender Dysphoria) and the results are not amazing, and have risk of much complication (colovaginal fistulas among others) which few doctors worldwide have experience with.

For three: "posing as a transgender PERSON" isn't something you can just "do". If you're really transsexual, it's pretty easy to prove it: Doctor's visits, hormone therapy, web search, family talks, and so forth. Most people wouldn't risk family ties, friendships, their job, their livelihood, their relationship, over a chance to peep/assault someone. The coming out process would have happened ages before anyone would even consider using the other bathroom, and nobody would go through that, when...

For four: A rapist isn't going to abide by any sort of bathroom law ANYWAY, and any bathroom law punishment would pale in comparison to the sexual assault/rape charges anyway. It's not like they could get caught and go "Oops actually I'm trans " and get out of it; any defense lawyer could look at their history and go "no, that's bullshit. 20-30 in jail, buhbye"

For five: Hormone replacement therapy, the REAL "Big thing" for many transfolk, is pretty effective at making remaining male anatomy nonfunctional.

For six: testosterone is a steroid; when one is on hormone replacement therapy, they are actively blocking testosterone. This means they're about as strong.... as another woman.

For seven: There has never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER been a recorded case of a transsexual woman peeping/assaulting someone sexually in the bathroom. It's a phantom boogieman argument. Some crossdressers (Important distinction) have tried to get away with such things, but they were all caught and charged appropriately.

For eight: similar to one, what they have downstairs, whatever it is, it shouldn't matter to you or anyone but their doctor and their lover. You will never see it unless you are one of those two people. If you do see it, and you are a non-consenting third party, a crime has been committed no matter what is there. You're focusing on something I could lie about and you'd never know.


Cis-privileged, transphobic requirements by people who've given the concept all of five seconds of thought AHOY!

Tl;Dr it would never happen, ever. And cisgender folk need to stop acting like their opinion on something they've never considered more than in passing counts for jack shit. Doctors, therapists, and professionals who treat gender dysphoria need to work with lawmakers to craft correct requirements, not fear mongering right-wing assholes and their whipped up fear-fed frenzy mob.

This is pretty much the entirety of what needs to be said. Really. All of it. Right here. Thank you, Beyond2

[A Day to Remember]

You dont just get to choose what restroom you go in to, it doesnt work that way. I dont care if you feel like a lady, if you are a man legally then you use the mens restroom. Majority rules in the world and im sure more people will have a problem with you being in the wrong restroom then wont.

[kynthrus]

Being an Arizona resident I find this law disrespectful, strange, and slightly funny. However AZ isn't the only place to make stupid laws that mean next to nothing.

[Noomz]

I would say the opposite is true. Violations of liberty without a corresponding protection of liberty (preventing someone from killing people to protect the liberty of those others not to be randomly killed for example) cannot be justified by social cohesion or just about anything else.


What liberty does any person have to force an employer who does not wish to hire them, to hire them? What liberty does any person have to force a business or individual who does not wish to conduct commerce with them, to conduct commerce with them? What liberty does any person have to force an entity that does not wish to associate with them, to associate with them? The answer is none and in fact the business, employer, individual, or entity all have the liberty to decide who they hire, associate with, or conduct business with just as the individual they do not want to hire, associate with, or conduct business with has the liberty to choose not to hire, associate with, or conduct business with any of them. All parties have their equal liberty in such a case. That is a free society.


From what I understand, the law simply legalizes discrimination; it does not force it on anyone. If anyone was forced to discriminate, then liberty would be violated and I would be against the law.

"Simply" legalizes discrimination? And you don't see a problem with that? You think it's okay for people to be denied things in life because someone is ignorant of your condition?
This is about transgenders being told which restroom they're allowed in, something I seriously can't understand why it matters to anyone. Really, are people so damned insecure and scared? Come on, for crying out loud!

It's not about forcing anyone to hire anyone, it's about protecting people from being discriminated against and denied work based on their private life. You'd be in a pretty terrible place if employers were allowed to discriminate just because they don't agree with you or think you look wierd.

And what's with this "them" crap? They're transgender people not aliens.

[Kelesti]

Am I thinking of something else? CISSEXUAL. Oops sorry about that >____________>; ... I'm all confused. They're the same thing but, I'm pretty bad at whatever. You know. It was my fault. I can't keep anything straight.

Cis just means "On the same side as", where as trans is opposite to that, both in science and in this case.

A cisgendered person is a person of any sexual orientation that has their gender identity match with the one they were assigned at birth. A transgendered person is one that this does not match up with, be they "gay" or not, as sexuality has nothing to do with gender identity except a lot of the enemies that you share (but with friends like these...).

So yes, there are plenty of cis gay people. And there are plenty of both gay and not-gay (oops I mean Straight) trans people too.

---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 12:16 AM ----------

You dont just get to choose what restroom you go in to, it doesnt work that way. I dont care if you feel like a lady, if you are a man legally then you use the mens restroom. Majority rules in the world and im sure more people will have a problem with you being in the wrong restroom then wont.

Majority ruled that people of African American descent were not to be treated as persons.

The majority can and is very quite often wrong.

[Uennie]

Cis just means "On the same side as", where as trans is opposite to that, both in science and in this case.

A cisgendered person is a person of any sexual orientation that has their gender identity match with the one they were assigned at birth. A transgendered person is one that this does not match up with, be they "gay" or not, as sexuality has nothing to do with gender identity except a lot of the enemies that you share (but with friends like these...).

So yes, there are plenty of cis gay people. And there are plenty of both gay and not-gay (oops I mean Straight) trans people too.

---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 12:16 AM ----------

Majority ruled that people of African American descent were not people.

The majority can and is very quite often wrong.

Yeah I completely messed that up. I have no idea what I was thinking about anymore. Sorry about that, lesson learned (hope I don't forget it this time).

[A Day to Remember]

Cis just means "On the same side as", where as trans is opposite to that, both in science and in this case.

A cisgendered person is a person of any sexual orientation that has their gender identity match with the one they were assigned at birth. A transgendered person is one that this does not match up with, be they "gay" or not, as sexuality has nothing to do with gender identity except a lot of the enemies that you share (but with friends like these...).

So yes, there are plenty of cis gay people. And there are plenty of both gay and not-gay (oops I mean Straight) trans people too.

---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 12:16 AM ----------

Majority ruled that people of African American descent were not to be treated as persons.

The majority can and is very quite often wrong.

Picture this scenario, youre in a stall going 'boom boom' and the person next to you asks if you have any toilet paper... and its a very deep, manly voice. Then, by chance, you two exit at the same time... you notice this person has a 5'oclock shadow and looks quite manly... you dont question that in any way?

[draganid]

The biased would say yes.

there's nothing biased about it, do some googling.

[A Day to Remember]

there's nothing biased about it, do some googling.

Youre trying to tell me more trans-whatever people have been assaulted or raped then non trans people?

[zerocoolhack]

It's pretty simple. If you have a penis you go to the mens if you have a vagina you go to the ladies.

[Keilith]

Picture this scenario, youre in a stall going 'boom boom' and the person next to you asks if you have any toilet paper... and its a very deep, manly voice. Then, by chance, you two exit at the same time... you notice this person has a 5'oclock shadow and looks quite manly... you dont question that in any way?

So a FtM post hrt using a womans restrtoom. Sounds like what you described. You think this is wrong and they should be in the mmens restroom ergo you are against the bill.

[Kelesti]

Picture this scenario, youre in a stall going 'boom boom' and the person next to you asks if you have any toilet paper... and its a very deep, manly voice. Then, by chance, you two exit at the same time... you notice this person has a 5'oclock shadow and looks quite manly... you dont question that in any way?

Considering I know enough cisgender women who suffer from PCOS and get testosterone spikes that can push facial hair, and enough to crack a voice beyond repair, maybe they're just having a really, really shitty day and me pointing out that their shadow is showing will make it worse.

That person wasn't a threat to me, nor was what was in their pants while they were in their stall, and I was in mine,.

[DEATHETERNAL]

On the middle paragraph...so, at what point do you say it's too much? If they can discriminate against trans people, what about African-Americans or Hispanics or women or any other group of people? Discrimination should not be tolerated in a civilized society. Saying it's OK only allows hatred to grow. I don't know what race/gender/etc you are, but imagine if people were legally allowed to discriminate against you. Say that no grocery store would allow you entry in to their building. That because the law says it's OK to discriminate, you can't eat. Is that really OK to you? I'm glad the majority of America does not agree with your opinions, as many laws, especially over the last century, have been passed to stop discrimination. It's really sad if you think discrimination is a right and is OK.

There should be no "too much". If you wanna not hire someone because they are Muslim or white or from Indiana or a women or to tall or too fat or have a medical condition or have more money than you or like Twilight or whatever else you can think of, you should not be preventing from not hiring someone. You should never be forced to hire someone or conduct business with someone you don't want to. That is nothing more than tyranny. If one cannot be secure in one's own property without fear that the government will step in and force one to hire someone or conduct business with someone, economic liberty (one of the two absolutely essential components for a free society) is shattered.

If no grocery store allows me to enter into their building then they are exercising their fundamental economic liberty. That is perfectly alright with me (especially since I could get around it any number of ways).

It isn't specifically a right, but it is a person's liberty to choose who they associate with and conduct business with (baring consensual contractual obligations which means the person agreed to do so anyway). Whether that involves a logical reason someone else agrees with, a logical reason someone else doesn't agree with, or an illogical reason should not be up to society or the government to determine.

As for it being okay (in a moral sense), I would rather the government not legislate morality or else we go down a very dark road that eventually leads to disaster on a national scale.

"Simply" legalizes discrimination? And you don't see a problem with that? You think it's okay for people to be denied things in life because someone is ignorant of your condition?
This is about transgenders being told which restroom they're allowed in, something I seriously can't understand why it matters to anyone. Really, are people so damned insecure and scared? Come on, for crying out loud!

No, it isn't about legislation telling transgenders which restroom they are allowed in. It is about a law that legalizes discrimination that shouldn’t be illegal in the first place as there is no justification to violate the liberty of individuals by forcing them to allow people to do whatever they want on property that isn't theirs.

I could ask you the same thing. Why are you so damned insecure and scared about letting people retain their liberty?

It's not about forcing anyone to hire anyone, it's about protecting people from being discriminated against and denied work based on their private life. You'd be in a pretty terrible place if employers were allowed to discriminate just because they don't agree with you or think you look wierd.

I would be in a free society that allows every person their liberty.

Majority ruled that people of African American descent were not to be treated as persons.

The majority can and is very quite often wrong.

Just like in the case of making discrimination by private entities illegal violating the liberty of every human being in the nation. Both are wrong and were wrong despite having majority approval at the time.

[Kelesti]

Youre trying to tell me more trans-whatever people have been assaulted or raped then non trans people?

Proportionally speaking, yes. And MtFs are not only not treated for most of their abuse (or given full court proceedings), but they aren't allowed access to rape centers and women's shelters either, no matter how far into transition they are.

[A Day to Remember]

So a FtM post hrt using a womans restrtoom. Sounds like what you described. You think this is wrong and they should be in the mmens restroom ergo you are against the bill.

Or it could just be a man, or a MtF very early in the procedure. No way for you, an average person to tell.

[Kelesti]

So a FtM post hrt using a womans restrtoom. Sounds like what you described. You think this is wrong and they should be in the mmens restroom ergo you are against the bill.

Well fucking played. I like this.

---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 12:26 AM ----------

Or it could just be a man, or a MtF very early in the procedure. No way for you, an average person to tell.

No way for you, a person who has no business seeing their junk and it's not being offered to you, to tell either.

[draganid]

Youre trying to tell me more trans-whatever people have been assaulted or raped then non trans people?

percentage wise, yes, your much much more likey to be assualted if you are trans than just about anyone else.

[Keilith]

Or it could just be a man, or a MtF very early in the procedure. No way for you, an average person to tell.

So if you cant tell why do you care?