AH "really hurt the game" - Wilson

[traen]

That is a lie. A very big one. Or you're just utterly misinformed.

Ofc it was. What was the point of adding any gems to the game but flawless squares? If you use AH you can buy flawless square for 300-500g.
What was the point of adding lowlevel craft system? You can buy better items on AH cheaper than one single craft will cost you.

And the most important argument - DIFFICULTY.
Using AH makes the game so easy that everyone's mom and her dog can beat it.
All monsters around you including elites die from 1-2 aoe hits.
Boss mechanics can be totally ignored. They either die before doing anything or can't do no harm to your enormous HP pool.
Using AH removes the difference between difficulties. On level15 you buy your first red gem to boost your dps to oneshot everything around you for up the end of the nightmare. On lvl45 you buy lvl60 items to oneshot everything up to inferno. On lvl60 your buy full set of gear to make your inferno run a walk in the park.

Without AH hell difficulty can be compared to hell difficulty in d2. A decent difficulty if you don't have a stash of uniques. Inferno difficulty is what was supposed to be after Hell - an insane difficulty that no one but dedicated players can beat.

[Vespian]

Ofc it was. What was the point of adding any gems to the game but flawless squares? If you use AH you can buy flawless square for 300-500g.
What was the point of adding lowlevel craft system? You can buy better items on AH cheaper than one single craft will cost you.

And the most important argument - DIFFICULTY.
Using AH makes the game so easy that everyone's mom and her dog can beat it.
All monsters around you including elites die from 1-2 aoe hits.
Boss mechanics can be totally ignored. They either die before doing anything or can't do no harm to your enormous HP pool.
Using AH removes the difference between difficulties. On level15 you buy your first red gem to boost your dps to oneshot everything around you for up the end of the nightmare. On lvl45 you buy lvl60 items to oneshot everything up to inferno. On lvl60 your buy full set of gear to make your inferno run a walk in the park.

Without AH hell difficulty can be compared to hell difficulty in d2. A decent difficulty if you don't have a stash of uniques. Inferno difficulty is what was supposed to be after Hell - an insane difficulty that no one but dedicated players can beat.

This is one quote from a post that was deleted by Blizzard, but surely the Escapist still had a quote going from a B.L.U.E:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/foru...tem-drop-rates

"The auction house obviously provides an incredible service to allow for very easy trades between characters, and essentially blows out the wide range of items you could have available to you at any one time. So, in fact, the AH has to be a factor in how we drop items. On one hand you have a huge benefit because you can buy and sell items very easily, as opposed to having to post up WTS threads in the old USEast trading forums, but on the other end it does impact the item pool economy with the inherent ease at which you can trade items. If the AH existed but wasn't a factor at all into how items dropped/rolled, the economy would be completely tanked within a matter of weeks."

And oh, gosh, I found another article that exactly explains how [DAMAGE CONTROL] immediately went CODE RED after that post. Read it. Completely.
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Rep...MAH-44163.html

But, just for you, I'm going to do something really nice. I'm going to post the images in the order they occurred (and later were deleted) *oopsiepoopsie Bashiok*.

1: Bashiok tells the truth (later gets deleted *shocked*)


2amage control from Chen.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6317...60#dropratesah

3: Bashiok trying to turn around his fckup.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/top...4997?page=3#49

But fact of the matter is, this is what happened:

"So, in fact, the AH has to be a factor in how we drop items. .....[SNIP]....... If the AH existed but wasn't a factor at all into how items dropped/rolled, the economy would be completely tanked within a matter of weeks."

And he's absolutely right. That's why to fix the situation, one would first have to remove the AH, but at the same time adjust item drops.

[Glorious Leader]

"So, in fact, the AH has to be a factor in how we drop items. .....[SNIP]....... If the AH existed but wasn't a factor at all into how items dropped/rolled, the economy would be completely tanked within a matter of weeks."

I'm surprised they didn't fire or move bashiok after revealing that tidbit. It damaged them in so many ways. It is of course however totally honest. OF COURSE the AH colors everything in the game. Once the developers set forth to create the auction house they immediately also assumed responsibility for the games economy. In d2 they didn't by and large. The economy was a totally organic affair on the part of the player base. Now they know this but the asshole developers and their supporters turn it around and still instead blame the player base. Yea the AH is a problem they claim but only because their player base is using it which they never assumed people would . First of all I think he's outright lying when he says the assumption was few players would use it. Second of all if he isn't actually lying about that then the game needed some serious QA work. Not just their in house beta test bullshit. OF COURSE when nothing drops for you for ages and your sitting on a pile of gold your going to go to the auction house. The game simple gets to difficult and provides you with no reward. If it did provide you with appropriate reward however then FEW people would actually use the AH.

When Jay Wilson says "if they could turn it off they would" it's not because they think theirs anything wrong with the AH or the approach that has them assume responsibility for the games entire economy. It's because they think their player base are idiots and don't conform to their "assumptions".

[Vespian]

I'm surprised they didn't fire or move bashiok after revealing that tidbit. It damaged them in so many ways. It is of course however totally honest. OF COURSE the AH colors everything in the game. Once the developers set forth to create the auction house they immediately also assumed responsibility for the games economy. In d2 they didn't by and large. The economy was a totally organic affair on the part of the player base. Now they know this but the asshole developers and their supporters turn it around and still instead blame the player base. Yea the AH is a problem they claim but only because their player base is using it which they never assumed people would . First of all I think he's outright lying when he says the assumption was few players would use it. Second of all if he isn't actually lying about that then the game needed some serious Q and A work. Not just their in house beta test bullshit. OF COURSE when nothing drops for you for ages and your sitting on a pile of gold your going to go to the auction house. The game simple gets to difficulty and provides you with no reward otherwise. If it did provide you with appropriate reward however then FEW people would actually use the AH.

When Jay Wilson says "if they could turn it off they would" it's not because they think theirs anything wrong with the AH or the approach that has them assume responsibility for the games entire economy. It's because they think their player base are idiots and don't conform to their "assumptions".

The only reason Bashiok was called back on this, is because Blizzard practiced unfair and dishounest communication to the outside world, when it concerned Diablo III. This is not the only example in which this was the case. Many core features that were showcased in early material were left out due to "not enough time and resources". Bashiok is a PR mans wet dream, but he is the nightmare of a PR man that knows he's communicating falsified information.

Bashiok tried to be honest, they shot him down. And it's not because Bashiok it's such a bad guy, it's because Blizzard lied, over and over and over. (and after).

Everyone but the very few, that simply refuse to even look at the facts, knew this from the start. Bashiok tried to use logic (because it is logical, mind you, from an AH-is-in-the-game-and-wont-go-anywhere perspective) to soothe the crowd, which is only succesful when your boss isn't facepalming behind your back.

[Vespian]

We all remember D2 worked

Yeah we do... so? I fixed it for you, you made a typo.

[mvaliz]

People traded items in D2 - there were even websites dedicated to item trade. What's different?

Is that your opinion, or were you quoting Jay Wilson BEFORE he got punted off of D3?

(Don't tell me he wasn't... you don't choose to voluntarily step away onto another project in the same company BEFORE they find a replacement)

[Glorious Leader]

The only reason Bashiok was called back on this, is because Blizzard practiced unfair and dishounest communication to the outside world, when it concerned Diablo III. This is not the only example in which this was the case. Many core features that were showcased in early material were left out due to "not enough time and resources". Bashiok is a PR mans wet dream, but he is the nightmare of a PR man that knows he's communicating falsified information.

Bashiok tried to be honest, they shot him down. And it's not because Bashiok it's such a bad guy, it's because Blizzard lied, over and over and over. (and after).

Everyone but the very few, that simply refuse to even look at the facts, knew this from the start. Bashiok tried to use logic (because it is logical, mind you, from an AH-is-in-the-game-and-wont-go-anywhere perspective) to soothe the crowd, which is only succesful when your boss isn't facepalming behind your back.

And their BIG reason for not removing the AH and all the changes to the game made because of it

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/top...08959?page=1#2

Removing the Auction House would fix the problem it created, but that would also create new problems, like chat spam (WTS/WTB [item link]) all day long. That's definitely not ideal, either. One of the ideas driving Loot 2.0 is that players should not feel that they need to use the Auction House. We don't mind if players use it, but targeted drops, reduced trash items, better stat ranges, new Legendary effects, and the Mystic should help players feel empowered by the item hunt, and not forced to use the Auction House.

BIG SCARY CHAT SPAM. Scourge of all ARPGS... I don't even know why they post such bullshit. It fools nobody.

[Rangoo]

I think AH is not the real problem, but the real problem is how much blizz wants to get from AH ($$$).
If we have a system to trade items, the game needs less drops or in a weeks the economy will be destroyed, because you will try to trade everything you found, different than you go to forum or spam in chat.

In my opinion the real problem is the item life cycle, when we are talking about a game with a warm economy, with a system to trade, you have to think about the item life cycle, these items need to be created and destroyed, and you must know when these items will be destroyed.

If we think in WoW, there are a lot of items too, but a lot of items are bind em picked up, then when you find an upgrade you will sell the old one, in diablo it doesn't happen, this item will back to economy, each time you find an upgrade the old one will back to economy. It causes an inflation in game.

These items are not destroyed, there is no reason to salvage a good item, is better to buy a stack of materials than salvage a good item.
Another point is the frequency you find an upgrade, and how you make gold, all these process needs to have a real realtionalship.

And something I really miss on diablo 3 is something like rune word.
I don't want to have a rune like we had on diablo 2, but I want to farm a lot of materials to craft an item, I want to have 100% chance to create a good item, but I don't expect an easy job to craft an upgrade.

I don't want to be 100% dependent from my luke, I want to have a second plan if I can't drop a good upgrade, or if I don't have enough money to buy an upgrade from AH.

Today we have the plan to craft these items, but it is luke, like try to drop an upgrade.

Sorry about my english, it is sucks.

[traen]

BIG SCARY CHAT SPAM. Scourge of all ARPGS... I don't even know why they post such bullshit. It fools nobody.

It was annoying.
But not because it existed.
But because blizzard was too lazy to
a) implement even simple chat functionality like disabling it
b) fight botters.

You don't have to get rid of AH.
Wow AH exists for quite a lot of time and the game is perfectly fine.
All you need to do is to make sure that BEST items can't be bought from AH.
The lowlevel gameplay will be still broken but at least endgame gameplay won't be affected.

[Vespian]

It was annoying.
But not because it existed.
But because blizzard was too lazy to
a) implement even simple chat functionality like disabling it
b) fight botters.

You don't have to get rid of AH.
Wow AH exists for quite a lot of time and the game is perfectly fine.
All you need to do is to make sure that BEST items can't be bought from AH.
The lowlevel gameplay will be still broken but at least endgame gameplay won't be affected.

Dont forget to respond to the blue post that admits they tweaked item rates and stats, I'm whispering so nobody else has to know about it.

[Glorious Leader]

It was annoying.
But not because it existed.
But because blizzard was too lazy to
a) implement even simple chat functionality like disabling it
b) fight botters.

You don't have to get rid of AH.
Wow AH exists for quite a lot of time and the game is perfectly fine.
All you need to do is to make sure that BEST items can't be bought from AH.
The lowlevel gameplay will be still broken but at least endgame gameplay won't be affected.

The WoW auction house isn't even a relevant. If they wanted to make the diablo AH as inconsequential and as meaningless as the wow ah they may as well get rid of it all together. The gap in item strength between what's available on the AH and say what's available in game from other means is so huge that basically nobody treats the AH as a serious source of progression. Now I agree that's a improvement from current diablo however it doesn't go far enough. Ultimately I want the AH removed because I do not want the developers in any way shape or form to feel like or actually have any responsibility over the games economy. D2jsp and item trading and all that crap that came about was entirely organic and not really the jurisdiction of the developers. People did that. Once Blizzard took that over the game went south because well they took it over.

[Milkyz]

I used AH initially and found out it really messed up my gameplay. After contemplating this major issue and meditating for days at the top of a mountain, a thought crossed my mind: "What if I played without the Auction-House?". I got a bunch of friends who shared same idea and we now play much more D3 than before, going Hardcore without AH. All the joy and excitement of drops are back, BS & JC crafts matter once again, whenever a Legendary Drop we go "ohhh orangies!". Even if that's not a BIS Legendary, it will probably be a neat upgrade, worst case it will be some mats to craft new items! So far we're doing Monster Level 3 on Inferno. Funsies, funsies!

And you know what's the better point of this? If someone out there likes AH, they can still use it. I made a choice to not use it, saw that it fits my playstyle and decided to change my game.

The way I see people complaining about AH/RMAH I can almost picture people being forced to use it or else face eternal torture by colorful ponies. Which we all know it's far from the truth.

[Glorious Leader]

I used AH initially and found out it really messed up my gameplay. After contemplating this major issue and meditating for days at the top of a mountain, a thought crossed my mind: "What if I played without the Auction-House?". I got a bunch of friends who shared same idea and we now play much more D3 than before, going Hardcore without AH. All the joy and excitement of drops are back, BS & JC crafts matter once again, whenever a Legendary Drop we go "ohhh orangies!". Even if that's not a BIS Legendary, it will probably be a neat upgrade, worst case it will be some mats to craft new items! So far we're doing Monster Level 3 on Inferno. Funsies, funsies!

And you know what's the better point of this? If someone out there likes AH, they can still use it. I made a choice to not use it, saw that it fits my playstyle and decided to change my game.

The way I see people complaining about AH/RMAH I can almost picture people being forced to use it or else face eternal torture by colorful ponies. Which we all know it's far from the truth.

Lot's of people have suggested individual solutions for what are obviously systemic and underlying faults with the game. Their was a pretty good response to this on the forums.

You've put it politely, but this kind of argument really annoys me because it is a framing error - you don't solve structural problems with a game by changing your own behaviour, all you are doing is mitigating the effect those problems have on your own game play, not resolving them for the entire player base. There is a difference between properly playing the game being a fix for certain issues, and deliberately gimping yourself as a "fix" for others - the latter is not a realistic expectation of what the vast majority of people playing a game are going to do.

Moreover it's the same trick the developers do when they say they just figured everybody would skip the auction house and they assumed it wouldn't get used. Their insinuating that the fault is on the part of the player base when it's not. The players didn't play the game the way Blizzard had anticipated they would and instead of doing actual QA they just "assumed" everyone would be an insane sadomasochist and grind for umpteenth hours on end beating theirs heads against a wall for no reward and no progression instead of using the pile of gold they had sitting around doing nothing. It's obviously a stupid assumption. However Blizzard has gotten into a nasty habit of blaming their player base (either directly or tacitly as Jay Wilson does). Blizzard and their fans have been doing that alot recently. It's not to my taste.

Ultimately though that is not the real problem with the AH. That's the problem the developer see with it and to be fair it is poor game design. To assume your players will actively play against their own interest in favor of god knows what is bad game design but it's also an easy out for Blizzard because they can say well look it was all on you guys. No the real problem with the AH is that it DOES have an affect on the games items. It did have an impact on character progression and ultimately so long as it exists it will continue to color the game in ways I dare say the developers will not "assume" their way out of. The AH must be removed and the developers will have to simple take a hands off approach to the games economy. You wanna trade go nuts we aren't stopping you or helping you. We are designing the game without that in mind at all.

[Repefe]

I still think that the biggest source of problem is the shitty itemization ... if you look at PoE, TL2, hell even a shooter like Borderlands. The items there are either juicy or something you build up to. In D3 it's all gray, boring, basic stuff ... best weapon in D3 is well rolled yellow sword. It's ridiculous how bland that system is.

- - - Updated - - -

The way I see people complaining about AH/RMAH I can almost picture people being forced to use it or else face eternal torture by colorful ponies. Which we all know it's far from the truth.

It's like going to a restaurant ... they bring you your order, you pull out your own spices and stuff and season the meal so it's edible. Some ppl are willing to do that, others will just call that restaurant shitty and go somewhere else for their next meal.

[Vespian]

I still think that the biggest source of problem is the shitty itemization ... if you look at PoE, TL2, hell even a shooter like Borderlands. The items there are either juicy or something you build up to. In D3 it's all gray, boring, basic stuff ... best weapon in D3 is well rolled yellow sword. It's ridiculous how bland that system is.



It's like going to a restaurant ... they bring you your order, you pull out your own spices and stuff and season the meal so it's edible. Some ppl are willing to do that, others will just call that restaurant shitty and go somewhere else for their next meal.

AH = bad itemization. That's the point of this thread. derpiederp.

Good anology on the second part of your post btw (no sarcasm).

[Glorious Leader]

It's like going to a restaurant ... they bring you your order, you pull out your own spices and stuff and season the meal so it's edible. Some ppl are willing to do that, others will just call that restaurant shitty and go somewhere else for their next meal.

I mean if they serve you shit no matter how much salt and pepper you put on it it's still shit. Now some people will spice it up and pepper it and they'll be fine with that but that doesn't solve the underlying problem that it's still shit.

Individual "solutions" to what are obvious and blatant systemic issues (that should have come out during QA testing) will not solve anything. You see this alot on this forum though. From Blizzard defenders and even from Blizzard themselves.

[Repefe]

AH = bad itemization. That's the point of this thread. derpiederp.

Well ... I think the itemization is bad period. Even without AH. We will see what loot 2.0 or 3.0 or 4.0 will bring. Can't say I am convinced so far, but there is some promise I guess ... still nothing that would blow me away.

[Milkyz]

Well, it could be better. But I try to find ways to play the game in a way that makes it better for myself while they don't change the original concept. I'm just against people claiming AH destroyed the game. AH may destroy the game. And as it was stated here a number of times, they are aware of the negative impact and are addressing it, so it's a Win-Win situation for me.

Guess as Glorious Leader stated, one may call me a Blizzard Defender, but if I'm willingly entering a restaurant I like and that I have already paid for the meal, I'll try to make the best of it while giving feedback to the restaurant owner himself. My problem is with people who doesn't like the food of the restaurant and thinks it's fine to announce to every table on the restaurant how the food is crap and that everyone should think the food is crap. Report to the Chef, don't bother the customers.

[Vespian]

Well, it could be better. But I try to find ways to play the game in a way that makes it better for myself while they don't change the original concept. I'm just against people claiming AH destroyed the game. AH may destroy the game. And as it was stated here a number of times, they are aware of the negative impact and are addressing it, so it's a Win-Win situation for me.

Guess as Glorious Leader stated, one may call me a Blizzard Defender, but if I'm willingly entering a restaurant I like and that I have already paid for the meal, I'll try to make the best of it while giving feedback to the restaurant owner himself. My problem is with people who doesn't like the food of the restaurant and thinks it's fine to announce to every table on the restaurant how the food is crap and that everyone should think the food is crap. Report to the Chef, don't bother the customers.

Actually, in this thread, the Chief has reported to his customers that; "he has been making crap for the last year" and that; he "wants to change it", but;he "doesn't know how". "But, please, enjoy your meal".

And only the rare few customers thought the crap tasted great.

[traen]

Dont forget to respond to the blue post that admits they tweaked item rates and stats, I'm whispering so nobody else has to know about it.

I see no reason to response to this post because it is irrelevant to my point.
My point is that the game was balanced around solo play. Even if they adjusted item drop for AH (which is obviously not the case because you can beat the game without using it), its just a small fracture of the game.