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  1. #41
    The fight isn't bad if your raid group is competent - if they haven't downed Sha of fear or anything previously, it's going to be a rough fight and I'd say you'd probably be better off doing last tier with a mix of LFR for this tier before going in. A 500 GS from everyone isn't hard to get an this fight will become a lot easier. My advice here:

    - Stay on dinomancers until they get to 50%, once they drop the orb and transfer, you can switch back to higher priority adds
    - Classes that can knock off poison and diseases should definitely do so. Keep in mind invulernabilities such as ice block and bubble will do the trick too, and people should be urged to do so (and healers should not target these people as a priority)
    - If you're having trouble with adds, definitely lust on the 4th door, the last phase is much easier and doesn't really require it
    - As a dps, I don't burn my major CD's on the first door, the adds die entirely way too fast as it is, much better to use it when 2 priests appear at the gurubashi door
    - dps need to be smart enough to target adds that are already being tanked (unless they have a threat dropping ability on deck)

  2. #42
    I was wondering if im the only person who finds the question being stupid - instead ask - what can/should my team do to improve and kill horridon - he just asks - kk so whom do i kick. It works for the short time goals - but if u want to have a stable raid team u want your people to improve not replace them 1 by 1 cause eventually they will all leave - this trick may work once or twice - but eventually ull hit next and next brick wall - and then what ull keep replacing people until everyone will feel like they dont want to play with u anymore and ull loose the good raiders to for the better guilds.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    I was wondering if im the only person who finds the question being stupid - instead ask - what can/should my team do to improve and kill horridon - he just asks - kk so whom do i kick. It works for the short time goals - but if u want to have a stable raid team u want your people to improve not replace them 1 by 1 cause eventually they will all leave - this trick may work once or twice - but eventually ull hit next and next brick wall - and then what ull keep replacing people until everyone will feel like they dont want to play with u anymore and ull loose the good raiders to for the better guilds.
    I agree with you, the question should always be "how do we improve"

    The correct answer to the OP's question is "kick everybody", theres no standout bads there, just 10 people who can all improve somewhat to bring about a kill. If anything I'd take the hardest look at the raidleader, so many wipes and not emphasing the importance of interupts :s

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    And lol, how awesome my own guild is..... Apparently being able to kill the second boss in ToT makes you awesome now - ROFL the irony......
    If you killed the second boss in normal ToT during the first week, that put you in the top one-third of raiding guilds.

    So, basically, everyone else is just a bunch of idiots?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-31 at 10:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    I was wondering if im the only person who finds the question being stupid - instead ask - what can/should my team do to improve and kill horridon - he just asks - kk so whom do i kick.
    I was thinking this was obvious, but there seems to be more sentiment along the lines of "kick the bads" than "let's all improve."

    This is one of the many reasons raiding isn't all that popular.

  5. #45
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    If you killed the second boss in normal ToT during the first week, that put you in the top one-third of raiding guilds.

    So, basically, everyone else is just a bunch of idiots?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-31 at 10:38 PM ----------


    I was thinking this was obvious, but there seems to be more sentiment along the lines of "kick the bads" than "let's all improve."

    This is one of the many reasons raiding isn't all that popular.
    You're still in this thread - why? You still haven't offered even one single advice to the OP. All you do, is getting butthurt about what other people reply. You keep trying to derail this thread, why don't you start offering some actual input in stead of acting like a butthurt baby, whenever I or anyone else say something that remotely implies that Normal Horridon isn't that hard?

    Grow up dude.

  6. #46
    The Lightbringer Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    You're still in this thread - why? You still haven't offered even one single advice to the OP. All you do, is getting butthurt about what other people reply. You keep trying to derail this thread, why don't you start offering some actual input in stead of acting like a butthurt baby, whenever I or anyone else say something that remotely implies that Normal Horridon isn't that hard?

    Grow up dude.

    Well tbh, you could offer your advice without the self congratulatory aspect. The advice is good, it just comes in a package which also features you blowing your own trumpet. I understand why you do it, it's to lend credibility to what you are saying - but it will and does piss some people off because it looks like bragging.

    And heres why - you put the bit in about how you've done it easily first and then offer the advice. If you change the order (or don't bother) no one will moan, trust me.

    to give an example check the exact same advice as I gave above, but with your technique applied to it -

    I've got an IQ of 145, have been a professional helping hundreds of people over many years, I was in the top 2% of every class I ever attended, I rejected oxford university because they weren't smart enough, i've got a million dollars in the bank and a beautiful girlfriend - i'm a god amongst men, basically and i'm telling you this from my superior position - Well tbh, you could offer your advice without the self congratulatory aspect. The advice is good, it just comes in a package which also features you blowing your own trumpet. I understand why you do it, it's to lend credibility to what you are saying - but it will and does piss some people off because it looks like bragging.

    See my point? It's the exact same advice, except now it's been given to you by a tosser.
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  7. #47
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Well tbh, you could offer your advice without the self congratulatory aspect. The advice is good, it just comes in a package which also features you blowing your own trumpet. I understand why you do it, it's to lend credibility to what you are saying - but it will and does piss some people off because it looks like bragging.

    And heres why - you put the bit in about how you've done it easily first and then offer the advice. If you change the order (or don't bother) no one will moan, trust me.

    to give an example check the exact same advice as I gave above, but with your technique applied to it -

    I've got an IQ of 145, have been a professional helping hundreds of people over many years, I was in the top 2% of every class I ever attended, I rejected oxford university because they weren't smart enough, i've got a million dollars in the bank and a beautiful girlfriend - i'm a god amongst men, basically and i'm telling you this from my superior position - Well tbh, you could offer your advice without the self congratulatory aspect. The advice is good, it just comes in a package which also features you blowing your own trumpet. I understand why you do it, it's to lend credibility to what you are saying - but it will and does piss some people off because it looks like bragging.

    See my point? It's the exact same advice, except now it's been given to you by a tosser.
    Injin, the people moaning are doing so, cause we've been arguing like mad men in 2 other threads, where Normal Horridon is the center of said discussion. Then a few of them decided to follow me around so they can QQ, whenever I claim that it's more about L2P issues than overtuning.

    But you're right, I could have changed the order or left it out. I guess I was rather pissed after discussing in 2 other threads with people crying in stead of asking for advice. And as I said, the only reason why this dude is so keen on making me look like a douche, is cause I didn't agree with him in the other threads. /care

  8. #48
    The Lightbringer Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Injin, the people moaning are doing so, cause we've been arguing like mad men in 2 other threads, where Normal Horridon is the center of said discussion. Then a few of them decided to follow me around so they can QQ, whenever I claim that it's more about L2P issues than overtuning.
    That's because of the way you frame your position. Horridon is indeed overtuned. You won't have had the experience of trying him first in a raid with 485 -490 gear (fucking hard but we did itm eventually) and then gearing up to 500 (dinosaur falls over) so you aren't expected to know this.
    But you're right, I could have changed the order or left it out. I guess I was rather pissed after discussing in 2 other threads with people crying in stead of asking for advice. And as I said, the only reason why this dude is so keen on making me look like a douche, is cause I didn't agree with him in the other threads. /care
    Sure, but you're also wrong about the tuning.
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  9. #49
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Please stay on topic. If you have something to discuss, which is not related to Horridon or the OP's question, do it via PMs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  10. #50
    The Lightbringer Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    Please stay on topic. If you have something to discuss, which is not related to Horridon or the OP's question, do it via PMs.
    Sound advice, when I do have something OT to say I will indeed use pm's.
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  11. #51
    I agree with you, the question should always be "how do we improve"
    Problem with that seems to be, when it's asked by raiders who didn't finish T14 Normal, then part of the answer is "go finish T14 Normals," and a lot of raiders don't want to do that. Blizzard has stated that you're supposed to finish T14 before trying to clear a lot of T15. If you got stuck on Garalon (and didn't get someone to let you into Terrace), you finished half of T14. There's a lot of gear left to get, including all tier.

    Sometimes you have to suck it up and go back and clear past content. Even if you get all the interrupts and dispels, you do need a certain amount of throughput from your heals and DPS to clear the boss.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    And as I said, the only reason why this dude is so keen on making me look like a douche, is cause I didn't agree with him in the other threads. /care
    I don't even know who you are or recognize your handle or care whether you agree with me. Well, I guess I do care a little whether you agree with me, but I don't take it personally, or remember that it's you not agreeing with me.

  13. #53
    Only your raid leader can tell us what's wrong. It's very difficult to tell just what's happening in a fight like that from logs alone.

    It's part of raid leading to be capable of observation or having his/her own raiders tell him/her what happened. If Venom Bolt Volley isn't interrupted more than once, that's bad. If the disease stacks to more than 4, that's bad.

    One thing I can tell you that helped my guild a LOT was having disarms for the Drakkari Frozen Warlords and Jalak. Two Mortal Strikes at the same time could mean instadeath for your tank or close to it, and Jalak can easily 2-shot a tank after one or two Bestial Cry's. So you're very lucky that there's a Windwalker Monk there. Tell him to get Ring of Peace and work out a disarm and kill rotation for the Warlords and then repeat the disarm rotation for Jalak.
    A Monk also has Grapple Weapon in addition to the Warriors having Disarm, the Rogue having Dismantle, and even the Hunter could get a pet that disarms. The Warlords are unable to do Mortal Strike while disarmed, and obviously disarming a boss like Jalak drastically cuts down damage.


    Edit: I decided to take a harder look at the logs, specifically Damage Taken and what people died to. The most common trend I saw was tanks simply dying to Horridon's normal melee hits, BEFORE enrage. That is a real problem. Tank healing should be the least of your worries in that fight until the very end when it gets super insane. However, I can't be sure if this is a healer or tank problem. Also, a few times it even looked like tanks lost aggro on Horridon, which I don't even know how that can be possible, so I'll assume that's a bug in the log.

    Second most common trend I saw was the disease stacking too high. People need to know they must NOT be hit by those undead. The Warriors can be CCed by anything, the Champions can only be CCed by stun. People need to run and/or stun. Assigning people, like melee, to kill/disarm Warlords while others, like ranged, kill Champions could be very useful here. I know that thins out DPS a lot, but this is why Bloodlust spells are used for this part. Use your Bloodlust spell when the first Warlord is at about 70%, and you should make it.
    Last edited by Senka; 2013-04-02 at 07:17 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    Problem with that seems to be, when it's asked by raiders who didn't finish T14 Normal, then part of the answer is "go finish T14 Normals," and a lot of raiders don't want to do that. Blizzard has stated that you're supposed to finish T14 before trying to clear a lot of T15. If you got stuck on Garalon (and didn't get someone to let you into Terrace), you finished half of T14. There's a lot of gear left to get, including all tier.

    Sometimes you have to suck it up and go back and clear past content. Even if you get all the interrupts and dispels, you do need a certain amount of throughput from your heals and DPS to clear the boss.
    There are 3 issues with this:
    1) Just finishing T14 doesn't guarantee the drops you need. Random loot is, in fact, random, and half the loot you get in 10 mans gets sharded as noone can use it / it isn't an upgrade over valor gear.
    2) The guilds that facerolled this boss in week 1 for the most part hadn't just finished T14 - many of them had quite a few heroic kills too, and had been farming those bosses for quite a while.
    3) The gear upgrade vendor is gone. This allowed those guilds that looted the heroic-quality epics to further upgrade their gear. While there's better ways to spend valor now, this again gave these guilds an advantage.

    Eventually, this will all be overcome by LFR / valor /world boss gear. This wasn't going to happen in the first few weeks due to stupid LFR /world boss gating and valor cap. But yeh, this boss is horribly overtuned if you're heading in there with normal mode gear from MSV / HF / ToES, especially if you didn't get the chance to upgrade the gear. It's unfortunate, since that's going to kill a LOT of casual guilds, whose raiders simply don't have time to raid AND do LFR.

  15. #55
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    That's because of the way you frame your position. Horridon is indeed overtuned. You won't have had the experience of trying him first in a raid with 485 -490 gear (fucking hard but we did itm eventually) and then gearing up to 500 (dinosaur falls over) so you aren't expected to know this.


    Sure, but you're also wrong about the tuning.

    Didn't think this thread was still alive Been sick with the flu the last week and a half, so haven't been checking. But I don't believe that I'm wrong about the tuning Injin. If the tuning was really that bad, Blizz would have hotfixed it by now. People who attempts ToT bosses in 485-490 gear aren't geared enough, since ToT is tuned around 502 gear.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-10 at 02:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Senka View Post
    Only your raid leader can tell us what's wrong. It's very difficult to tell just what's happening in a fight like that from logs alone.

    It's part of raid leading to be capable of observation or having his/her own raiders tell him/her what happened. If Venom Bolt Volley isn't interrupted more than once, that's bad. If the disease stacks to more than 4, that's bad.

    One thing I can tell you that helped my guild a LOT was having disarms for the Drakkari Frozen Warlords and Jalak. Two Mortal Strikes at the same time could mean instadeath for your tank or close to it, and Jalak can easily 2-shot a tank after one or two Bestial Cry's. So you're very lucky that there's a Windwalker Monk there. Tell him to get Ring of Peace and work out a disarm and kill rotation for the Warlords and then repeat the disarm rotation for Jalak.
    A Monk also has Grapple Weapon in addition to the Warriors having Disarm, the Rogue having Dismantle, and even the Hunter could get a pet that disarms. The Warlords are unable to do Mortal Strike while disarmed, and obviously disarming a boss like Jalak drastically cuts down damage.


    Edit: I decided to take a harder look at the logs, specifically Damage Taken and what people died to. The most common trend I saw was tanks simply dying to Horridon's normal melee hits, BEFORE enrage. That is a real problem. Tank healing should be the least of your worries in that fight until the very end when it gets super insane. However, I can't be sure if this is a healer or tank problem. Also, a few times it even looked like tanks lost aggro on Horridon, which I don't even know how that can be possible, so I'll assume that's a bug in the log.

    Second most common trend I saw was the disease stacking too high. People need to know they must NOT be hit by those undead. The Warriors can be CCed by anything, the Champions can only be CCed by stun. People need to run and/or stun. Assigning people, like melee, to kill/disarm Warlords while others, like ranged, kill Champions could be very useful here. I know that thins out DPS a lot, but this is why Bloodlust spells are used for this part. Use your Bloodlust spell when the first Warlord is at about 70%, and you should make it.
    I remember looking at their logs as well and I agree that it was more than 1 person "who needs to go". Cause it looked like it was lack of performance across the board and they didn't handle some of the key mechanics very well (interrupting, dispelling, tanks using CD's) and a general lack of output but dps and healing wise.

    Anyways, isn't this a dead thread?

  16. #56
    If you are not killing a boss, you change your tactic or you gear up. If your raiders are unable to rise to the challenge of a somewhat mechanically complicated boss, and your raid leader is unable to come up with a strategy to compensate for your raiders' sub-par skills, the solution is simple:

    Go farm more gear.

    You can always go on a farm run then brute-force your progression by trivializing everything with gear. It's not elegant but it clearly works.
    Seeing bosses die (even if it is from the past tier) is a confidence booster for your raid as well.
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  17. #57
    I'm not in an elitist hardcore guild or anything but for our first kill we were all around the 495-500 ilvl and 3 healed it. DPS wise we were all pulling well over 100k which I don't think is too much to ask for that gear level (and with the number of targets you can be hitting). As a point of comparison, we 3 healed and our raid wide dps for the kill was 985,178.

    The fight's all about the adds and prioritizing what gets killed first as well as interrupting and dispelling. Are people focusing adds and not tunneling the boss when they should have switched? I think it would be a bit harsh to single out individuals as poor performers when it appears to be a raid wide issue. Looks like a majority of the raid could/should be doing something different to help the raid get over the line. Looks like you're groups is capable of surviving up to the 10min mark which really should be putting you in touch of a kill. Surviving that long you'd say the lack of success is probably not a healing issue. That's not to say your healers couldn't be doing things differently either. Eg. the priest could swap to disc for some added dps/atonement healing.

    The warrior, rogue and monk in particular should probably review what they are doing and compare their logs with what other people are doing. I don't know anything about dps monks so can't say anything about that, but there's a bit the warrior could be doing that would improve his/her output. For starters they don't seem to be using all their abilities on cd. For example in a 10 min attempt they only used bloodbath 5 times - its on a 1min cd, so it should have been used 10 times. Looks like he/she may be spamming heroic strike a bit to liberally which would be eating into rage better spent on bigger hitting stuff.
    For a 10min attempt I'd be expecting to see things like Bloodthirst used a little more frequently. Also looks like they were only enraged between 40-50% of the time. Better performing fury warriors are well over 65% uptime. This could partly be due to not hitting bloodthirst enough or that they simply don't have enough crit on their gear. For someone struggling to get into enrage they aren't using Berserker Rage enough either (in a 10:28min attempt they used it 7 times - it has a 30sec cd). In lower level (eg. 496-502 sort of range) arms can often pull bigger numbers than fury, and with sweeping strikes and thunderclap spreading deep wounds now, arms can do quite well on horridon style fights. May be worth them trying arms perhaps to see if that helps. They are the things I noticed on the warrior at a glance.

    For the rogue, looks like they are combat but I'm not sure that they are using blade flurry (the combat perma-cleave whatever its called) much, or at all? Without blade flurry I'm not sure why you'd choose combat for this fight, probably better with assassination? Also, no where near enough eviscerates. Use shadowblades more. Compare your rogues damage with this:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/y...?s=2605&e=3094
    Blade Flurry is the no.1 damage source compared to your rogue (who didn't even seem to use it on some of the longer attempts I looked at).

    On Horridon I'd expect the lock, shaman and hunter to be toward the top of their raids dps so I wouldn't just say its a case of melee slacking and the range carrying.

    TL;DR version: it's not an individual thing. everyone seems to be under performing to a certain extent. potential quick wins. have warrior try arms (may not have crit lvl/gear for fury to pull ahead at this point), rogue try assassination (particularly if they aren't going to be using blade flurry!), have the priest give disc/atonement healing a shot. Make sure everyone has optimised as much as they can (are they hit/exp capped, reforged to the stat priorities etc). Focus adds as priority, ignore boss while adds are alive. If the raids average ilvl is around the 500 mark, it's not a gear issue. Might be time to go back to basics.

  18. #58
    Calaba: The thing is, the guilds attempting Horridon at 490 are already the guilds you would expect to struggle at content. Because it means they hadn't finished T14 progression. Which either means they got a late start, so they're undergeared, (Which 490 is a bit undergeared but doable for T15) or they struggled all of T14 because they lacked skill at their class and execution as a raid.

    Both of these are a bad combination for attempting T15 content.

    My raid was in the 490-495 camp to start T15, having only started Heroic T14 stuff 1-2 weeks before T15 launched, and struggling with attendance for the first few months of T14. And Horridon was definitely tough. Everyone was pulling out all the stops not to die early, keeping up with dispels, DPS on adds, etc. Now that avg raid ilvl is more like 505, the fight is MUCH easier and we one-shot it almost every week.

  19. #59
    Grats to the OP's partner's guild on their kill.

    And as a side note, the part we found really made the difference for us was spotting who was being charged & keeping horridon well clear of the doors.

    The add tank + raid had much more room to move with horridon kept fairly central & it make it all much less of a cramped clusterf. DBM should announce to people when they're being charged & who gets charged is semi-predictable, so that person would use the few seconds to run him a reasonable way away. One healer stays out a bit to guarantee their range on the Horridon tank & the other healer(s) are more purely focused on the group (but should generally be able to reach the horridon tank at the edge of their range anyway).

    But getting over that first kill hurdle once always seems to break the drought, so hopefully they'll down it again fine regardless.

  20. #60
    Looks like you have 2 choices:

    -Replace the bad people in your raid who don't know their class very weell/can't learn fight mechanic's in a reasonable time

    -Go back and kill some T14 bosses which are very easy now with the recent nerf, and with the coins being so easy to get (1 scenario) and the increased chance on loot, there really is no reason not to.

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