View Poll Results: What type of Raiding do you do, if any?

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  • I raid Norm/Heroic a few times a week, including LFR

    77 50.66%
  • I raid Norm/Heroic a few times a week, no LFR

    22 14.47%
  • I raid LFR mostly, Norm/Heroic once a week

    13 8.55%
  • I raid only in LFR

    40 26.32%
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  1. #1

    Post Raiding: Good, Bad, or Indifferent

    There's been a lot of speculation about raiding lately. Some claim it is better than ever, while others stand by the claim that it is in a decline. In your opinion, what is the state of raiding in on your realm, or on other realms you might play on? Is raiding better than ever, or is it in a slump? Either way, what is your basis for your choice. I am genuinely curious to see what people think about the state of Raiding.

  2. #2
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    I did it for a long time and I'm sort of indifferent about it at this point to be honest.

    The most important thing about raiding is not the raid but who you raid with. A lot of serious raiding guilds are having their issues right now because the former way that things were done--strict attendance rules and a work ethic that was more like being in the military or having a part time job--are just not that attractive to players now that they have an alternative in LFR.

    In any case, I suspect the game--and most of the audience that plays it--is moving beyond the paradigm of raiding towards things that might or might not have some challenge associated with it but in either case don't take multiple hours over multiple days to finish.
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  3. #3
    Whilst I cant talk for myself who is currently unsubscribed, my guild which I was part of has stopped raiding due to being unable to find skilled players who are guildless. It has been like this on our realm since about mid-way through Cataclysm, and though they had a good team for the raid tier of 5.0, they stopped raiding just a few bosses into 5.3, which is a great shame as this patch actually looks really good. One player joins the roster, another leaves.

    It sounds like some guilds are struggling to find the numbers to make raids happen, or at least thats what it seems like. As to why they can't find the numbers, I have no clue.

  4. #4
    I've never been one for raiding. I find most raid guilds are very... intense. I don't care much for pressure since I am a casual player, so raiding for me will most likely get as far as LFR. I just want to see the content. I'm not too concerned about getting geared to iLvL 600.

  5. #5
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Before Mists I had delusions of grandeur in serious raiding, not like World 10 or even US 10, but Top 5 guilds on a particular server; getting deep into heroic content if not clearing it completely at a reasonable pace and having people know that my name + guild tag meant I was a good player. I ended more than one friendship due to guild hopping to try and achieve that, only to have second thoughts when I was in a group where I was literally a complete stranger compared to laughing and joking with everybody.

    However, I don't have the patience to do it anymore. I don't want to raid 4+ nights a week for several hours a day to be at that level, and I don't want to have to constantly push 110% or risk losing my spot. I get frustrated/bored wiping to the same boss for the same reasons multiple times (note: I don't mean wiping when you get progressively better on a boss you're still learning. I mean wiping because the same guy did the same dumb thing at 1:47 into the fight, or because your healer couldn't heal the tank fast enough for Boss Special #1 at 2:03 for the tenth pull in a row, or worse killing said boss and then the next week wiping the whole night on him) to the point where I want to log off or at least yell and scream (part of why I think I could never be a raid leader; I would be like those guys you hear on Youtube that just go cussing and raging on people).

    Along with the fact I took a few months off (October '12 -> March '13) pretty much relegates me to LFR unless I can find, I suppose, a guild that's still working on T14 while dabbling in T15 (I'm not really sure how the progression path is now; I know that you can't just gear up in T14 from heroics like before which is a good thing I suppose, but it also doesn't seem as harsh as TBC where you have to join a scrub guild to get through T14 and then guild hop to a guild in T15), but I'm okay with that. I'm totally undecided if I'm going to continue playing, or even playing MMOs in general, so having that kind of fun "Let me log on for an hour or two and zerg some bosses in LFR" isn't as terrible a prospect as it once was.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    I don't want to raid 4+ nights a week for several hours a day to be at that level, and I don't want to have to constantly push 110% or risk losing my spot.

    I get frustrated/bored wiping to the same boss for the same reasons multiple times (note: I don't mean wiping when you get progressively better on a boss you're still learning.

    I would be like those guys you hear on Youtube that just go cussing and raging on people).

    I'm totally undecided if I'm going to continue playing, or even playing MMOs in general, so having that kind of fun "Let me log on for an hour or two and zerg some bosses in LFR" isn't as terrible a prospect as it once was.
    I never had the desire to be a part of a hardcore raid guild. My former best friend in the world, the guy that gave me my first free pass for WoW back in Jan 2007, was the only reason I used to log in. He had a lvl 70 human paladin and took my Night Elf hunter everywhere. After about two months, I noticed a change in him. He's changed guilds and would be logged in, but was always running Mech, Bot, or Slabs with his guild. Eventually, it got to the point he was running Black Temple every Friday night. I wasn't invited cause I didn't know the fights. When the others made fun of my gear and lack of skill, not only did he not stand up for me, but he joined them. Yeah, there is a reason I don't raid hardcore. Hardcore raiders are in it to win it and honestly, they don't give a damn about the people they step on, mock, or destroy on their way to the top.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    I never had the desire to be a part of a hardcore raid guild. My former best friend in the world, the guy that gave me my first free pass for WoW back in Jan 2007, was the only reason I used to log in. He had a lvl 70 human paladin and took my Night Elf hunter everywhere. After about two months, I noticed a change in him. He's changed guilds and would be logged in, but was always running Mech, Bot, or Slabs with his guild. Eventually, it got to the point he was running Black Temple every Friday night. I wasn't invited cause I didn't know the fights. When the others made fun of my gear and lack of skill, not only did he not stand up for me, but he joined them. Yeah, there is a reason I don't raid hardcore. Hardcore raiders are in it to win it and honestly, they don't give a damn about the people they step on, mock, or destroy on their way to the top.
    I sympathize for your situation, but it's a little unfair to put all hardcore raiders in the boat you put your friends.

  8. #8
    Scarab Lord Miralynn's Avatar
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    I'm a casual player. I play WoW for fun. There was a time in my life, for a few years there, when raiding every week was pretty fun. It's not anymore. There just is no fun for me in paying $15 a month to be berated, harassed, micromanaged, and every tiniest aspect of my performance controlled and scrutinized harder than it is at my actual job.

    It's not a problem with the content, it's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with the people. I don't mind wiping over and over on bosses, I don't mind farming, I don't mind reading and researching and tweaking my setup - but I refuse to play with people who make me bored, frustrated, and angry while I'm doing it, and I refuse to dedicate the few hours of playtime I have left after you factor in work and family to trying to make those kind of people happy.
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  9. #9
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miralynn View Post
    I'm a casual player. I play WoW for fun. There was a time in my life, for a few years there, when raiding every week was pretty fun. It's not anymore. There just is no fun for me in paying $15 a month to be berated, harassed, micromanaged, and every tiniest aspect of my performance controlled and scrutinized harder than it is at my actual job.

    It's not a problem with the content, it's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with the people. I don't mind wiping over and over on bosses, I don't mind farming, I don't mind reading and researching and tweaking my setup - but I refuse to play with people who make me bored, frustrated, and angry while I'm doing it, and I refuse to dedicate the few hours of playtime I have left after you factor in work and family to trying to make those kind of people happy.
    A lot of this sounds like guild-specific, not raiding-specific problems. I have nothing against guilds with high standards who raid 5+ nights a week, but after having tried a few guilds like that out, realistically I came to the realization that I would never enjoy it, or end up doing well, in a 30+ hours a week guild (that, by the way for those who don't know, is just time spent in the raid instance. Even if you don't farm or do anything but raid, you still are spending extra hours polishing your ability at your class, or at least you should be in a guild of such caliber). For those who can and are getting world first and US first kills, that is what they deserve for their time and effort.

    Meanwhile, I'm happy in my 12 hour guild where we do have high standards and are doing well (but not world first level), and I'm having fun doing side stuff too now and not being tied down to 30 hours of required schedule - which, by the way, seriously put a damper in my life. I can play for hours and hours on end, but it's the reliability aspect that hits pretty hard.

    For instance, something as simple as not being able to stay late for class on any Tuesday is pretty brutal. Yes I can post out, but I'd rather save my absences for the few exam weeks, for instance.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-03-30 at 01:47 PM.

  10. #10
    Raiding is in decline. Not just in terms of numbers, but in terms of quality of raiders.

    I'm quitting my current raiding guild with no plans of finding a replacement (Tried out a total of 6 raiding guilds in MoP), simply because I know that where I could in the past find a guild with a majority of good players on any server that didn't necessarily raid 5 days/week, that is no longer possible. You either join a guild with a hardcore schedule in the hope of finding good players, you join a mediocre guild with many frustratingly bad players, or you don't raid.

    I've had it demonstrated to me that I'm of a caliber above the average of mediocre guilds simply by the fact that when I step into a spot where someone else was previously struggling, everything "suddenly" works out, but I'm unwilling to raid the inhuman hours that a better guild would require. So at this point, I'm simply stepping down from raiding. A mediocre guild is not worth the frustration, a better guild demands too many hours.

  11. #11
    Scarab Lord Miralynn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    A lot of this sounds like guild-specific, not raiding-specific problems.
    If it's guild specific, then boy have I had a string of bad luck, because it's specific to every guild I've ever had any experience with that goes beyond occasional, super-casual raiding. And even the casual guilds always seem to end up with That Guy sooner or later - the one that failed out of a hardcore guild but thinks he can 'whip these casuals into shape' and ends up ruining it for everybody while trying to build his own little fiefdom.
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  12. #12
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miralynn View Post
    If it's guild specific, then boy have I had a string of bad luck, because it's specific to every guild I've ever had any experience with that goes beyond occasional, super-casual raiding. And even the casual guilds always seem to end up with That Guy sooner or later - the one that failed out of a hardcore guild but thinks he can 'whip these casuals into shape' and ends up ruining it for everybody while trying to build his own little fiefdom.
    I'm the one who used to try and be "That Guy" although I didn't come from a hardcore guild. I don't tolerate stupid mistakes though, except maybe the first few pulls on a new boss. But when it's something like wiping for weeks because of the same thing (low DPS, standing in fire, bad healers, etc) it would get really annoying for me. Guilds seem to either be "good" or "bad", no middle ground. Either you're a guild that clears the normal mode in a week or two (or sooner) and then steadily pushes the hard modes, or you can barely down any bosses at all. There's not much of a middle ground anymore, and less so for returning players who may not have cleared the previous tier or aren't quite up to snuff for heroic modes of the current tier.
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  13. #13
    I simply can't be arsed to commit to a fixed raiding schedule anymore, I play the game when I wan't to play it these days, not when its dictated by a guild. Still LFR is a great way for players to get their raiding-lite fix, as and when it suits them.

    Maybe if I had more time I would get back into proper raiding, but then again it's all been done before and is getting a bit stale now. Perhaps if Blizzard could find a way to make raiding feel new and exciting again, instead of feeling like a generic raid encounter with new textures things might improve.

  14. #14
    I know this'll go over like a fart in church but..


    I just wish new content was easier. I have a career now (a career, not a job). I can't devote that many night hours anymore and the past two regular mode raids have a "let's not offend the crazies" approach. =/ In truth, I'll just wait until the DS model. (On a side note: The demographic is aging.)
    Last edited by NewOrleansTrolley; 2013-03-30 at 02:12 PM.

  15. #15
    I honestly don't know how people can say that raiding LFR is more relaxing than raiding in a guild. At least in a guild, when you try to correct someone that was doing something wrong, they actually hear you and try to change what they were doing, whilst on LFR no one gives a shit, and keeps doing the same mistakes all over again, it's just so much more frustrating.

  16. #16
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewOrleansTrolley View Post
    I know this'll go over like a fart in church but..


    I just wish new content was easier. I have a career now (a career, not a profession). I can't devote that many hours anymore and the past two regular mode raids have a "let's not offend the crazies" approach. =/ In truth, I'll just wait until the DS model.
    I can kind of agree, but at the same time it shouldn't be so easy that you can just zerg it and ignore everything. I definitely agree that the normal modes are a BIT too difficult for the average guilds (while being too easy for the hardcore guilds ofc). I really think the normal modes should be easy enough that most guilds can make it through them, but not necessarily the hard modes for obvious reasons. Not as easy as LFR (rather, not as "let's ignore everything and DPS the boss" as LFR) but outside of DS the raids have always seemed like normal mode is pretty tough for average guilds to clear (without nerfs) and heroic modes are inaccessible (which isn't a bad thing). The problem here is the mentality that normal modes don't matter and only heroic matters.

    I think it should be like this:

    LFR: I want to play on my own time, with strangers, and just derp around and have fun, kill some bosses, get some loot, and go about my merry way.

    Normal: I want to play with a casual raiding guild of average skill (some above average players, some below average), progress and down content at a reasonable pace (i.e. not clear it first week, but not having to wait until its nerfed either) and enjoy everything the game has to offer.

    Heroic: I want to play in a hardcore raiding guild and really push progression and be one of the top guilds on my realm/in the region/in the world, and face the hardest challenges and hardmode-only content available.

    We are almost at that point, but I think that Normal modes need to be tuned down a bit in the future. The average guild should be able to progress at a fairly reasonable pace with it, and have a fairly steady progression model so people don't get burned out. The "wall" bosses need to be further in the dungeon, not at the start (beyond maybe the Patchwerk tank-and-spank "Are you tall enough to ride this ride?" kind of fight which needs to be IMO the first or maybe second boss to make sure everyone is geared enough). That was the big problem with T11 (Halfus, Magmaw and Omnotron) and T14 (Stone Guard, possibly others), and now in T15 the second boss is the wall boss that most casual guilds are stuck on. IMO the wall boss should have been boss #5 or even further in (maybe something like Boss #5, Boss #8, Boss #12, mix in easier with harder) so those casual guilds don't feel dejected killing one and then hitting the huge wall on the next boss, and so they have a handful of bosses that can be gotten on farm status fairly quickly so while they're wiping and progressing on Boss #5, they can at least look forward to farming Bosses #1-4.

    I would have enjoyed T14 a lot better if my casual guild before it died had been able to get up to Spirit Kings or even Elegon without much trouble at all, so we could at least be progressing on that instead of wondering if we'd get lucky and down Stone Guard. But when the first boss is a wall that you have to struggle to get past, and then in subsequent weeks you aren't even sure if you can down it again, that's a big problem. When you feel like you can't do anything, people lose interest in showing up.
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  17. #17
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    IGuilds seem to either be "good" or "bad", no middle ground. Either you're a guild that clears the normal mode in a week or two (or sooner) and then steadily pushes the hard modes, or you can barely down any bosses at all. There's not much of a middle ground anymore, and less so for returning players who may not have cleared the previous tier or aren't quite up to snuff for heroic modes of the current tier.
    Top-end guilds clear the heroics within say a month after release.

    Good guilds clear the heroics before the release of the new tier. There is middle ground between them and the top-end guilds (some clear the last lockout, some clear a month and half before the last lockout).

    Middle ground guilds will clear the normals in say 1-4 weeks and several (maybe around half) of the heroic modes by the end of tier.

    Bad guilds will take months to clear the normals and maybe only get to 1-3 of the simplest heroic modes by end of tier.

    Awful guilds won't even clear the normals.



    You are sort of right though in one sense, after having raided in guilds that can clear higher-end heroics, I can confidently say at this point I am never going to ever raid in a guild that considers normals "progression" of any sort, I'd sooner just retire from raiding and only do LFR, or simply quit the game altogether.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-03-30 at 02:20 PM.

  18. #18
    Stood in the Fire bledgor's Avatar
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    I raided harcore from 2004 till 2011, I mean I was officer of the #2 horde guild on Garona for Vanilla/TBC, Officer of one of the top guilds on BWL for WotLK, and when cata came I was a bit worn out and slowly stopped playing. I raided with a fairly good guild early on in MoP, but I work overnights, and my shifts left me unable to attend any good raiding guilds really so now I occasionally do LFR but dislike it due to the dismal atmosphere.

  19. #19
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    Well. I think raiding is the best it has been. I'm on Arthas and the quality of guilds on the server is competitive and frankly the best I have ever seen. LFR pushed most of bad people away from normal/herioc raiding guilds actually raising the quality I'm a way. Now my guild raids 9 hours a week but we clear bosses. I attribute that to have at least 60 percent of my old raiders return (all quit in Cataclysm). The issue I see repeated here is an issue with guilds not content. Well, the bad guilds exist for a reason of selfishness. Instead of merging with other guilds or seeking a more balanced home a lot of guilds try to stay alive by taking any beating heart. That's just not conductive for progression. The raiding content is the best it has been for me. Crossrealm raiding is also very awesome. Every Saturday I host 5.1 raids to help more people get normal kills and employee the people in my guild whom can't raid multiple times a week due to real life. The results have been positive.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyJenkins View Post
    There's been a lot of speculation about raiding lately. Some claim it is better than ever, while others stand by the claim that it is in a decline. In your opinion, what is the state of raiding in on your realm, or on other realms you might play on? Is raiding better than ever, or is it in a slump? Either way, what is your basis for your choice. I am genuinely curious to see what people think about the state of Raiding.
    I raided heavily in Vanilla, casually in BC, heavily in Wotlk, casually in Cata, and now I just don't raid. I'm really tired of the way the only thing holding raiders back is gear and ability to avoid dying to scripted mechanics. Pvp is the only area of the game where you actually have to adapt to fights and increase your skills in order to progress.

    I just don't understand what the big deal is with scripted fights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin
    Why? Because fuck you, that's why.

    Every time you have a question that begins with "Why?" that is about what other people prefer to do with their own goddamn time, come back here, and reread the first row of this post. That will ALWAYS be the answer to your question. Have a nice day.

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