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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    Atonement is nice, but it's not a deal breaker.
    Assuming we're only talking normal mode ToT, sure. 10man heroic it is absolutely a deal breaker and you are hurting your guild by going Holy instead of Disc. The more your raid gears up the less this is true, though. When everyone is undergeared, the extra DPS that a Disc Priest brings is invaluable in a 10man. It's more of a drop in the ocean in 25man.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by worcester View Post
    don't resto shamans do this exact thing you described? albeit better than a holy priest, the thing holy has going for it otherwise is general inefficacy of shamans when it comes to healing anything where people are spread more than they are able to lick each other.

    edit: this is in response to invader's post
    yea possibly I spose ;p im a bit out of touch with healing in raids n stuff in MoP tbh as I don't raid anymore... but that's how I used to see it.. and yea holy can defo pump out some awesome HPS, but being a priest if you go down that route your gonna be oom a lot, or I used to when showing off ;p.. but yea im a lil out of touch as I only pvp now.
    ........THE WRITING'S ON THE WALL !!!!!

  3. #43
    Resto shaman can't even come close to a holy priest in terms of numbers imo

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    Resto shaman can't even come close to a holy priest in terms of numbers imo
    Yet they always had a steady 20% of all healerspots, how come? Yes, awsome utilitys. So why should they be on the same lvl as classes with much less utility?

    You know what our shaman said when they recently got that 20% buff to HR, CH? "Lol, what? We got buffed... Why??"

    It's not about numbers so much.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    Yet they always had a steady 20% of all healerspots, how come? Yes, awsome utilitys. So why should they be on the same lvl as classes with much less utility?

    You know what our shaman said when they recently got that 20% buff to HR, CH? "Lol, what? We got buffed... Why??"

    It's not about numbers so much.
    Are you in a 25man guild? Resto shamans are weak in 10man. Even on megaera, a fight that plays to their strengths, they're nothing special.

  6. #46
    Yes Kalmah. I understand 10's is a different story, also for Holy Priests who have 2% (?) of all healerspots in that section.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by invader View Post
    yea possibly I spose ;p im a bit out of touch with healing in raids n stuff in MoP tbh as I don't raid anymore... but that's how I used to see it.. and yea holy can defo pump out some awesome HPS, but being a priest if you go down that route your gonna be oom a lot, or I used to when showing off ;p.. but yea im a lil out of touch as I only pvp now.
    haha ye, holy priests have still sick hps power, but resto is the king of cooldowns at the moment although they dont have anything else to show for it, so they end up on the bottom of the meters regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    Yes Kalmah. I understand 10's is a different story, also for Holy Priests who have 2% (?) of all healerspots in that section.
    the reason you are seeing such a difference in representation is probably because resto doesnt have an alternative, and priests have a strong alternative sad as it may be.

    with regard to the question of shields being too strong of a utility, you can compensate by just doing massive amounts of throughput like monks.
    Problem is holy doesnt have enough of either; while resto have both copious amounts of utility and throughput, their concerns derive from topological fields (i can't play a shaman because i am spatially dyslexic and geometry was never my strong point)

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevyvia View Post
    Assuming we're only talking normal mode ToT, sure. 10man heroic it is absolutely a deal breaker and you are hurting your guild by going Holy instead of Disc. The more your raid gears up the less this is true, though. When everyone is undergeared, the extra DPS that a Disc Priest brings is invaluable in a 10man. It's more of a drop in the ocean in 25man.
    Again, it's nice, but not a deal breaker. I'm not denying it makes encounters somewhat easier on certain fights, but I disagree wholly that it is ever required on a fight.

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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    So what is Holy specc for? Playing around in LFR?

    Oh wait, the dmg is all absorbed.
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    In that case, why bother even having both specs in the same class?

    If the spec exists, it should be competitive. If it doesn't need to be competitive, it shouldn't exist.
    I already mentioned a very solid reason for Holy and why I keep it as my OS instead of Disc (despite the fact that I have a great deal of HM progression healing as Disc, too).

    Holy's output is very strong. There's a reason it's seeing higher numbers than Disc on a number of 25H (and 10H to a lesser extent, perhaps due to people favoring Disc for its added DPS, which is less trivial in 10H?) fights at the moment. If you're a full-time healer, there's really no excuse to show up to a raid only to heal with one of your specs. Disc meets the needs better on some fights, and Holy meets the needs better on others. The fact that Disc may be a little better on a few more fights than Holy is inevitable, as preventative healing is of course very strong and expecting to see a completely even split is just unrealistic. They've done a good job making both specs viable for every fight, with some fights catering more to one spec than the other and vice versa. I'd rather they focus on other things at that point.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    I already mentioned a very solid reason for Holy and why I keep it as my OS instead of Disc (despite the fact that I have a great deal of HM progression healing as Disc, too).

    Holy's output is very strong. There's a reason it's seeing higher numbers than Disc on a number of 25H (and 10H to a lesser extent, perhaps due to people favoring Disc for its added DPS, which is less trivial in 10H?) fights at the moment. If you're a full-time healer, there's really no excuse to show up to a raid only to heal with one of your specs. Disc meets the needs better on some fights, and Holy meets the needs better on others. The fact that Disc may be a little better on a few more fights than Holy is inevitable, as preventative healing is of course very strong and expecting to see a completely even split is just unrealistic. They've done a good job making both specs viable for every fight, with some fights catering more to one spec than the other and vice versa. I'd rather they focus on other things at that point.
    Yes, but while disc isn't that horrible on fights where holy shines.. it's not the same case for holy. Holy has horrible single target healing while in sanctuary chakra and imo even in serenity chakra but disc aoe heals aren't that bad.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    Yes, but while disc isn't that horrible on fights where holy shines.. it's not the same case for holy. Holy has horrible single target healing while in sanctuary chakra and imo even in serenity chakra but disc aoe heals aren't that bad.
    Tortos logs say hi.

  12. #52
    I play Holy on the majority of fights in ToT. I play disc only on Horridon and Jikun and honestly don't even bother with Spirit Shell because I feel bad for the other healers...

    That being said, for many fights I feel broken for Holy. PoM feels like it needs a nerf as it's often 25% of my healing and requires zero skill. The scaling of this spell with the tier bonus seems out of control. Echo of Light heals for 20%+ of my healing and requires me to do nothing. And then CoH is typically third and Grid literally tells you the BEST target to use it on every 6 seconds making it ridiculously efficient. (I don't think this mod should be possible, but I'm not going to gimp myself by not utilizing what is available)

    I also find that I am often drowning in mana and can't spend it fast enough.

    For Reference

    wow-heroes.com/character/us/Kil'Jaeden/mattcauthron/ (Won't let me post links)

    On the Disc Vs Holy argument. Disc may be putting out higher HPS than Holy on many fights, but I consider most of that healing "non essential" healing. You are merely stealing healing from resto shamans/monks through atonement and causing them to have overheal. Holy heals the important stuff. Holy has the HPS when it MATTERS. Remove atonement from disc meters which is easily covered by the other healers passive healing abilities and see where disc stands.

    *All from a 25 man perspective.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    Tortos logs say hi.
    Yes and even on the heroic mode of that fight where overhealing matters the most there isn't a huge gap between disc and holy. But when it comes to fights like horridon and dark animus.. its dreadful to play holy. I am fine with it being that way, but when mistweavers work almost exactly the same and are simply better holy priests then it makes playing a holy priest pointless.

    And even monks aren't that bad at spot single target healing and low damage phases.. I prefer spamming soothing mists over chaincasting heal anyday.. and their fistweaving might be nerfed a lot but it is still there and has its uses when there is little damage going on.
    Last edited by Rorschachs; 2013-04-02 at 05:00 PM.

  14. #54
    I'm glad there's someone speaking for holy priests. Anyone saying that we're perfectly fine clearly doesn't either play hpriest or is a disc priest afraid of nerfs.

  15. #55
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightstorm View Post
    I know it's a radical idea but maybe blizzard should balance around meters since the population does. Then adjust the fights accordingly.
    ...only the population is widely diverse in skill. And gear. How can you still look at meters then?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  16. #56
    The reason blizz is in a bind on Holy is more of a 10 man vs 25 man dilemma I think. I can see how it would be far weaker to Disc in a 10 man scenario but this is simply not the case in 25 man. If blizz were to buff Holy to Discs level in 10 man, holy would dominate in the 25 man arena. They already do incredibly well, but it would get to where no other healer could even touch Holy with the excpetion of monks on their niche fights like Tortos and Maegara (As it is I already leave all our healers in the dust on about half of the fights in ToT).

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    I already mentioned a very solid reason for Holy and why I keep it as my OS instead of Disc (despite the fact that I have a great deal of HM progression healing as Disc, too).

    Holy's output is very strong. There's a reason it's seeing higher numbers than Disc on a number of 25H (and 10H to a lesser extent, perhaps due to people favoring Disc for its added DPS, which is less trivial in 10H?) fights at the moment. If you're a full-time healer, there's really no excuse to show up to a raid only to heal with one of your specs. Disc meets the needs better on some fights, and Holy meets the needs better on others. The fact that Disc may be a little better on a few more fights than Holy is inevitable, as preventative healing is of course very strong and expecting to see a completely even split is just unrealistic. They've done a good job making both specs viable for every fight, with some fights catering more to one spec than the other and vice versa. I'd rather they focus on other things at that point.
    Hey dude, I was disc for MOST (by far!!) fight last tier, and 1 out of 2 hc kills this tier. Dont come tell me I need to adjust, cause thats what Ive been doing for years now.

    How nice you keep Holy for... what fights...? Tortos? Any else?

    Pls answer this question;

    Would it hurt to change Chakra not to be about ST/AoE heal? And would it hurt to give Holy some utility, like for example groundspell Sanctuary reduce dmg taken by 10% or +heal 10%? That's all we want, you act like we scream for a complete overhaul and major buffs. It's QoL changes, nothing gamebreaking.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 05:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    Again, it's nice, but not a deal breaker. I'm not denying it makes encounters somewhat easier on certain fights, but I disagree wholly that it is ever required on a fight.
    Have you done Horridon hc? Have you gone through the tactics for the other fights? Atonment IS the shit. It makes a huge difference if you have a couple of Discs in your 25 man, but even bigger if you have 1 in 10 man. They contribute a lot more than Holy to any raid atm, and there is a reason only 2% of all healspots goes to Hpri in 10 hc, and 32% to Disc!
    Last edited by nobodysbaby; 2013-04-02 at 05:56 PM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    Yes and even on the heroic mode of that fight where overhealing matters the most there isn't a huge gap between disc and holy. But when it comes to fights like horridon and dark animus.. its dreadful to play holy. I am fine with it being that way, but when mistweavers work almost exactly the same and are simply better holy priests then it makes playing a holy priest pointless.

    And even monks aren't that bad at spot single target healing and low damage phases.. I prefer spamming soothing mists over chaincasting heal anyday.. and their fistweaving might be nerfed a lot but it is still there and has its uses when there is little damage going on.
    I'm seeing a 40k HPS gap between Holy and Disc on Tortos 25H for the top 100 (which is important for me, as I tend to rank at least in the top 100 when healing) and over a 20k gap for all Tortos 25H parses. There's a reason 2/3 of the priests who have healed this fight did it as Holy and not Disc. We're just starting to see good data on more heroic boss kills, too. Holy is doing better than Disc on several where not many even went Holy. You can bet that these strong players have noticed that, and I'd be incredibly surprised if they didn't start trying Holy for several more fights now. You know why? They're good players and don't just stick to one spec and claim that's the only one they're able to play. If another spec does better for a given fight, they're going to use it. That's the beauty of healing as a priest.

    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    Have you done Horridon hc? Have you gone through the tactics for the other fights? Atonment IS the shit. It makes a huge difference if you have a couple of Discs in your 25 man, but even bigger if you have 1 in 10 man. They contribute a lot more than Holy to any raid atm, and there is a reason only 2% of all healspots goes to Hpri in 10 hc, and 32% to Disc!
    Our 2 Disc priests made up a total of 5% of our raid damage for that fight. 150K dps (both combined) out of a total raid dps of 3 million DPS. In 25s, if you're struggling to meet DPS requirements, the answer isn't have more Disc priests. You know the damage modifiers in fights has a cap on atonement, right? They don't get the insane increase to their healing that they would have previously. It's still strong (Disc is great for that fight), but hardly negates Holy as viable on any other fight, or even that one. It's right up there with Shamans, Druids and Monks. Disc is the best choice for that fight, of course, and it's a good thing we can change our talents easily these days. Anybody who doesn't play both Disc AND Holy is missing out.

    Again, spec loyalty is silly at this point in the game, with quick talent changes and addons to manage reforges and an unlimited number of keymaps. You're all priests, so stop limiting yourselves to one spec of your class IMO.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    Resto druids and holy priests need help in my opinion, not because they are bad but because they bring nothing unique to the table.
    Resto's got that battle res, and tranquillity. They're the only healer who can Brez. Of course, non healing druids, warlocks and BM hunters can also brez, so that is kind of moot. Innervate is nice too, though.

    I don't know holy priests too well, but they don't really have either of those things.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightstorm View Post
    There has been more changes to disc than any other spec for 3 expansions now. Now they have a full on revamp in my opinion with changes to crit and aegis.

    While I don't feel that Holy is broken they logs clearly show disc pulling higher numbers on almost every fight. Sure you can say "that is because all the good priests are disc right now, if they went holy than holy would be at the top.
    Trolling? Disc was changed a lot because blizzard can't find a proper balance for the spec. In this tier they gave up on balancing, they reduced the amount of absorbs to a level they knew would not be game breaking and use encounter design to balance everything. The actual output capabilities that holy has far exceed disc. In fact this is true for absolutely every healer, but the encounter design prevents them from using it.

    What logs exactly are you looking at? On 25man the two specs are indistiguishable. Some fights disc is ahead some fights holy is ahead some fights they are the same. On 10 man disc has an advantage in more fights because atonement is just too good (and too brainless) there.

    Holy has the same problem it always had it suffers a lot from overheal and lack of high raid damage. The same encounter design that allows disc to do well its current state is also hurting holy. It is not really lacking in power. TBH if holy mastery gave mana back everytime it overhealed holy would practically destroy the meters on every fight.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-04-03 at 12:09 AM.

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