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  1. #61
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post

    Have you done Horridon hc? Have you gone through the tactics for the other fights? Atonment IS the shit. It makes a huge difference if you have a couple of Discs in your 25 man, but even bigger if you have 1 in 10 man. They contribute a lot more than Holy to any raid atm, and there is a reason only 2% of all healspots goes to Hpri in 10 hc, and 32% to Disc!
    I'm not an idiot, I know the benefits of atonement. I am currently disc when we attempt Horridon for its benefits. But you are on fucking crack if you think that it's not possible to do without a disc. Hence it is NOT game breaking.

    I think you are confusing my point here, which is that HOLY is fine. However, I do believe as I've stated many times before and added in the "nerfed atonement" thread that disc has some real problems with being over-valued in raids, especially 10s, which casts a shadow on holy (pun intended). That is a problem. It needs to be fixed.

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  2. #62
    The Lightbringer Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightstorm View Post
    I know it's a radical idea but maybe blizzard should balance around meters since the population does. Then adjust the fights accordingly. The truth is if you are an absorb class you are boss in everyone's eyes due to meters. Do I like it? no. I just call it like I see it.
    sure, its a radical idea, but should they do it, no... they shouldn't. Why? because someone has to be number 1, 2, 3, ... 25... not everyone can be number one... period.

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  3. #63
    i wish they added some sort of mana return for holy :/ since they lost FD:CL and that extra 30(??)% spirit from talent tree cause im burning my mana quiet fast as holy and i dont like :/

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  4. #64
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    I do agree that holy could afford an extra regen mechanic.

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  5. #65
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    I'm not an idiot, I know the benefits of atonement. I am currently disc when we attempt Horridon for its benefits. But you are on fucking crack if you think that it's not possible to do without a disc. Hence it is NOT game breaking.

    I think you are confusing my point here, which is that HOLY is fine. However, I do believe as I've stated many times before and added in the "nerfed atonement" thread that disc has some real problems with being over-valued in raids, especially 10s, which casts a shadow on holy (pun intended). That is a problem. It needs to be fixed.
    Calm down, I never called you an idiot. I was wondering if you had the experience of trying Horridon as Holy, cause I did and I was more or less forced to go disc after 20 wipes near the enragetimer! And as Disc it went down with a couple of ppl alive, so that was gamebreaking enough to me. This wasnt yesterday, it was when gear was pretty tight for dps, we have pretty strong dps.

    You keep saying that. Holy is FINE. They are in many ways absolutly fine, but they need to be more competetive in the utility area to be brought to raids more.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    I'm not an idiot, I know the benefits of atonement. I am currently disc when we attempt Horridon for its benefits. But you are on fucking crack if you think that it's not possible to do without a disc. Hence it is NOT game breaking.
    You're arguing that there is nothing like Heroic Lich King anymore, where Infest was pretty much impossible to deal with without shields. Which is all good and well, but this isn't what people are talking about.

    H Tortos is pretty much another Tsulong, with pure heals > absorbs, which is typically filed under 'gimmicks', instead of 'balance'.

    I'm trying to play Holy this tier, I really am, but it feels pointless most of the time. Yeah, hps is be slightly better, but mana usage goes through the roof, I do zero dps - unless I spec Solace for some insane reason - and there's no more utility through Barrier/Shell. Not to mention absorbs being unique mechanic that only Discs offer and which matters on plenty of fights. And it's 25, I can only imagine it being much worse in 10 man, where Atonement completely destroys anything Holy brings. Nerfing it can't come soon enough.

  7. #67
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    No, what I'm arguing is that a guild that didn't have any priest on its roster can clear these fights, so it begs to reason that as a priest, holy and disc are both capable, so you will still kill the encounter. However, I do think the perks of disc make it more attractive. But I believe atonement is the only problem. I prefer GS > PS and DH > Barrier and consistent high hps to 1 min absorb intervals any day.
    Last edited by ramennoodleking; 2013-04-04 at 12:44 AM.

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  8. #68
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    My alt priest is almost 90 and I would quite like it if they made a positive change to holy's Chakra system, along with the nerf to attonement, maybe I can justify playing it in 25 man heroics when my guild has cleared 12/13 hc and starts clearing on alts. Holy looks like a tonne of fun, It would be awesome to be able to play it without feeling like your making it harder for your raid
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  9. #69
    Pandaren Monk Faithshield's Avatar
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    Absorbs are just really powerful. A boss will only ever put out a certain amount of damage in a given fight. If a significant % of that can be absorbed before it hurts anyone, then the raid is much safer. Plus it makes all the other healers more redundent. Absorbs were fine when they were rare, now that you pretty much have a whole spec organised around absorb the other healer specs have a stiff competition. Holy Priests are unique because the whole spec is in absolute direct competition with Disc just to be played. This is basically the frontline for the entire absorbs vs healing war which will eventually erupt.
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  10. #70
    High Overlord Vilbu's Avatar
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    I've been changing to holy during farm raids just to see how it is. Didn't see a big difference in numbers as I was the only priest in the raid. Even though I have optimized my stats for disc, holy seems just fine. I just like disc mechanics more at the moment and it works well in most of the encounters, esp. 10's.

  11. #71
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    They are fine and they can do a great deal of healing, noone said it was about that. Its also very fun to heal reactivly. Besides that we need to have something other than only healing, cause what you see on meters is kind of all you get from a Holy priest and thats where the problem is. No mitigation, extra dps, PWB, MTT, SLT, AM, you get the point. They burn through mana too fast compared to other classes so I do believe from previous experience they wont scale aswell as other healers either.

    In other words there needs to be another reason to bring a Hpri to your raid."Good healer" isnt always enough.

  12. #72
    The damage from Disc in 25-mans isn't entirely trivial, but it's pretty close. The raid can't always stack up for PWB, and sometimes you need the burst healing over mitigation anyway. I imagine you're currently holy for Tortos progression for this very reason. If not, you will be when you start it. One might be glad that Holy is so viable for that fight because I could easily see every Disc priest just being sat for it if there wasn't an alternative for priests. That's how bad Disc is for it. You've done council 25H. Surely when working on that you noticed that Holy is doing better there, too? Holy is also superior for fights that have constant raid damage rather than predictable bursts than can be preempted.

    There are some fights that clearly favor Disc. There are some fights that clearly favor Holy. There are some fights where both specs are reasonably close (less than 5k HP difference). This seems to be exactly what you would shoot for when balancing two healing specs of the same class, doesn't it?

    No mitigation, extra dps, PWB, MTT, SLT, AM, you get the point
    No, I don't get the point. This is not a comprehensive list of things desired from healer (Holy has things not listed here), nor is it a list of things that Disc has but Holy doesn't (both have a raid mana cooldown and raid healer cooldowns, both can do decent DPS for healers, with Holy actually being superior if it were ever required, which it isn't this tier, so it's trivial), so.. what is the point of it? I honestly don't see any valid point in this list.

    Your comment about burning through mana too fast based on previous experience isn't a strong point. I've only managed one top 10 US/West rank as Holy so far this tier, but again my MS is Shadow, so I run with very low spirit (about 8-9k with food/flask), as I'm in Shadow gear with old healer trinkets. If I can manage to maintain mana while keeping up with strong HPS, anybody can.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    The damage from Disc in 25-mans isn't entirely trivial, but it's pretty close. The raid can't always stack up for PWB, and sometimes you need the burst healing over mitigation anyway. I imagine you're currently holy for Tortos progression for this very reason. If not, you will be when you start it. One might be glad that Holy is so viable for that fight because I could easily see every Disc priest just being sat for it if there wasn't an alternative for priests. That's how bad Disc is for it. You've done council 25H. Surely when working on that you noticed that Holy is doing better there, too? Holy is also superior for fights that have constant raid damage rather than predictable bursts than can be preempted.

    There are some fights that clearly favor Disc. There are some fights that clearly favor Holy. There are some fights where both specs are reasonably close (less than 5k HP difference). This seems to be exactly what you would shoot for when balancing two healing specs of the same class, doesn't it?

    No, I don't get the point. This is not a comprehensive list of things desired from healer (Holy has things not listed here), nor is it a list of things that Disc has but Holy doesn't (both have a raid mana cooldown and raid healer cooldowns, both can do decent DPS for healers, with Holy actually being superior if it were ever required, which it isn't this tier, so it's trivial), so.. what is the point of it? I honestly don't see any valid point in this list.

    Your comment about burning through mana too fast based on previous experience isn't a strong point. I've only managed one top 10 US/West rank as Holy so far this tier, but again my MS is Shadow, so I run with very low spirit (about 8-9k with food/flask), as I'm in Shadow gear with old healer trinkets. If I can manage to maintain mana while keeping up with strong HPS, anybody can.
    Can you please name the fights that favor holy other than Tortos?

  14. #74
    Dreadlord Bizerk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    Can you please name the fights that favor holy other than Tortos?
    Tsulong jk last tier.

  15. #75
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    There are still more Disc on Tortos hc 25 (8,5% of healer roles) than there are overall for Holy 25 hc (7,18%) counting all fights.
    Last edited by nobodysbaby; 2013-04-07 at 02:02 PM.

  16. #76
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Guess what? There will always be a disparity. There is no way for it to ever be 50/50, never going to happen. The sooner you realize that the better you'll sleep at night.

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  17. #77
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Thats not an impossibility, it was more 50/50 at the start of MoP, and has been the case for start of expansions for a while and also mid DS for example, so it's clear many are interested in playing Holy IF they are "good".

    And no, I won't silently accept Holy being so low in representation, even if that would make me "sleep better", I sleep much better when I express and fight for something I strongly believe in.

  18. #78
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Yea but when you start to sound like a broken record it really does nothing to further the argument. Let the numbers speak for themselves.

    And no, disc was "considered" by the majority to be far better up until DS because of the 3 minute arms race and was still technically better in 10s during DS due to fights like spine, madness, zonozz, yorsaj, and gunship. Disc was better and more represented all of Cata.

    Disc was only worse than holy during the very absolute beginning of MoP, but was quickly remedied by blizzard hotfixes.

    All things considered, disc has been generally considered the preferred spec since ICC.

    So yes, broken record that's been playing since ICC. The two can and will never be balanced when absorbs and dps are on the line. However, as I've been trying to state, disc may only make the fight a bit easier, but because it is not necessary I say holy is fine. It's underrepresented because disc is doing so well and has been for some time.
    Last edited by ramennoodleking; 2013-04-07 at 04:38 PM.

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  19. #79
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    This thread must be very old, or some of the people here are playing with seriously retarded healers!

    Both Holy Priest and Resto Druids are in a good spot these days, in most cases it comes down to something as trivial as your healing comp and which size raid your running, the whole stereo-typist X needs a buff and nerf Y because I says so is dead atm.

    Holy Priests were even fine before the major rewamp of Discipline, there were just an obscene amount of bad healers around, because healing is probably the easier path between tanking / dps'ing from t14 n' forward. (Few fights excluded)

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Banzhe View Post
    This thread must be very old, or some of the people here are playing with seriously retarded healers!

    Both Holy Priest and Resto Druids are in a good spot these days, in most cases it comes down to something as trivial as your healing comp and which size raid your running, the whole stereo-typist X needs a buff and nerf Y because I says so is dead atm.

    Holy Priests were even fine before the major rewamp of Discipline, there were just an obscene amount of bad healers around, because healing is probably the easier path between tanking / dps'ing from t14 n' forward. (Few fights excluded)
    Actually if you are feeling soo good playing a holy priest or a resto druid, you are probably playing with a retarded team of healers who don't know how to stack absorbs.(if anything like that is possible)

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