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  1. #241
    not that i really care, but i think if 10 man had 2 pieces of loot drop then 25 should have 5. so it'd be 1 for every 5 players putting in effort

    also, yeah obviously it takes more effort to put 25 ppl together, but there's also much more room for error in 25 mans compared to 10 mans

    with my 2 cents on the table, i'll take my leave
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  2. #242
    The issue isn't really what 25s get. It's that 10 loot has a much higher chance of being useless to the raid. I'd leave 25s alone - I don't care that they have a higher chance at TF pieces or that they have a slightly higher per person drop rate. What I care about is the high DE rate in 10s. Both hunters in my raid who need the Jinrokh legs have them. We have no enhance shammy so if they drop again they're a shard. That's half of his loot useless already in that case.

  3. #243
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightofdawn View Post
    not that i really care, but i think if 10 man had 2 pieces of loot drop then 25 should have 5. so it'd be 1 for every 5 players putting in effort

    also, yeah obviously it takes more effort to put 25 ppl together, but there's also much more room for error in 25 mans compared to 10 mans

    with my 2 cents on the table, i'll take my leave

    So many people believe this misconception. Range check mechanics in ToT hurt 25M far more. Raid wipe mechanics with 25 people are more frequent, thus more chances of a wipe. Random choice mechanics like Amber-shaper & Durumu create an added period of learning for mechanics because it can not hit player X until the 20th attempt, or the 50th attempt, then it is the first time they see it.

    There's so much evidence to the contrary on this yet people continue to try to slip it into arguments. I'm not saying 10M is always easier, just that your choice of arguments is entirely invalid.

  4. #244
    Stood in the Fire Confucius's Avatar
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    rank and file raiders in 25 do nothing to warrant them the extra gear. It's only the RL and officers who put in the effort when it comes to organizing/recruiting etc. The rest just pretty much show up for the raids

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Raone View Post
    are 25ms still complaining about 10ms? :P see what i did there?

    10ms aren't wanting more/better gear then 25ms so please don't make it that. All were saying the current system in 10 is terrible and the incredibly large loot table each boss has makes it even worse. I remember back in Dragonsoul one of the blue's even admitted there was something wrong with the current system and had a change coming but then it disappeared forever. Trust me 25's have it good when it comes to loot, you have very little loot waste. We killed Lei Shen yesterday for the first time and it was an awesome fight and we were thrilled to finally beat him ... till we DEed both items.
    if you think 25s have it good with loot rng then you have not done 25s recently. you have more people fighting over the same drops which are subject to the same cruel wiles of rng.

    my raid DEs loot off every boss already and we are barely 1/13. 25s are not immune to crappy loot rng.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confucius View Post
    rank and file raiders in 25 do nothing to warrant them the extra gear. It's only the RL and officers who put in the effort when it comes to organizing/recruiting etc. The rest just pretty much show up for the raids
    how so? rank and file raiders are what make 25 man raids tick. without 20 rank and file raiders who would only have a 10 man ( and we all know how little respect i have for 10 man). a solid, reliable raider who can show up, use his cooldowns proactively and intelligently, do good damage while not standing in stuff is incredibly rare and no 25 man can function without them.
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  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    how so? rank and file raiders are what make 25 man raids tick. without 20 rank and file raiders who would only have a 10 man ( and we all know how little respect i have for 10 man). a solid, reliable raider who can show up, use his cooldowns proactively and intelligently, do good damage while not standing in stuff is incredibly rare and no 25 man can function without them.
    It's obvious. Everything yo usaid is true of 10 man raiders too. The argument for giving 25s more loot per person and higher TF drop rates is to encourage them but lets face it, the extra effort in running 25s doesn't fall on most of the raid, but on the RL and people like recruiting officers. The raiders just need to show up and raid.

    That said, I don't know how you could reward only the RLs... how can Blizzard tell who that is and what kind of reward would make sense? But as I noted above, I'm fine with some extra loot for 25s acting as an incentive to people. I'm going to be raiding 10s in any event, so as long as it's not horribly unbalanced (and it's not), eh. I'd just like more protection for 10s so we have a lower DE rate. At this point in the expansions I'd bet most drops in 25s are needed by 1 or more of the people in the raid. That should also be true of 10s, but it may well not be since 10s flat out cannot have the same class and role diversity.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    That said, I don't know how you could reward only the RLs... how can Blizzard tell who that is and what kind of reward would make sense?
    That's basically what blizzard is trying to deal with as well. There really isn't a good reward for the officers. Instead, they go after the next best thing - make the recruitment just a bit easier by providing something that makes people more interested in 25mans.

    Here's hoping one day someone actually comes up with something good.
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  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Vapo View Post
    If they just fixed 10man loot system to drop useful loot i wouldnt mind. Disenchating 50% of loot is not great from full clears just because it decided to drop mail spirit or str dodge/parry crap. Dont think we need more loot from bosses, we just need less wasted loot.
    Agreed. I've raided in a 10 and 25m group simultaneously for the past 3 tiers and I must say that 25m has far less disenchanted gear especially early on.

    10m last week we got super lucky and everything went somewhere (but some to off-specs), this week however every boss dropped tier and an off-piece, we de'ed about 70% of the loot this week and only clearing for 4 weeks (and it wasn't gear people would need but have it was gear nobody would ever use).

    The fact that our Boomkin went 6 months of killing h: stone guard every week and never got a 502 belt is just one example of many for why 10 man loot is broken, sure 25m you might have horrid luck and not get something for a month maybe even two. But you'll see everything at least a few times, there are several items I've never seen in 10 man including the feng fan, feng str cloak, empress main hand, heal trinket from will of the emp, dps trinket from sha, off-hand from blade lord ta'yak. this is the 5-6 months of raiding during the tier these things never dropped once.

    Vs. 25m where everyone had every piece of loot they needed off of Feng heroic by the time HoF normal came out.

    And this tier is only shaping up to look the same; I imagine in another month all 25m raids will be pushing 535+ while 10 mans will still be struggling to reach 520. Assuming around 500 world.

    One thing that would be nice for 10 man is if they'd at least make the system detect what classes/specs you have in the raid so it doesn't drop agi mail if you have no hunter or shaman, or same for holy pally gear.

  9. #249
    The easiest way to fix any 'issues' would be to allow x-realm raiding of current content under the circumstance that you have killed the end boss, of current content, on normal mode. It would make trialling x-realmers easier, it would make forming groups easier. It would do so much.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Really the problem is with loot tables, not numbers.

    I'm still convinced loot isn't purely random, because we keep sharding the same items over and over again. It happens every tier. Blizzard needs to stop having loot tables with some items being one percent chance, and other items being higher/lower.

    Trash drops kind of suck, too. IMO, they should be filler for items that exist elsewhere in the raid, not BiS items (for normal raiders, obviously.)
    The "birthday paradox" ensures that given a random stream of items, you will see repeats unexpectedly quickly.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    It's obvious. Everything yo usaid is true of 10 man raiders too. The argument for giving 25s more loot per person and higher TF drop rates is to encourage them but lets face it, the extra effort in running 25s doesn't fall on most of the raid, but on the RL and people like recruiting officers. The raiders just need to show up and raid.

    That said, I don't know how you could reward only the RLs... how can Blizzard tell who that is and what kind of reward would make sense? But as I noted above, I'm fine with some extra loot for 25s acting as an incentive to people. I'm going to be raiding 10s in any event, so as long as it's not horribly unbalanced (and it's not), eh. I'd just like more protection for 10s so we have a lower DE rate. At this point in the expansions I'd bet most drops in 25s are needed by 1 or more of the people in the raid. That should also be true of 10s, but it may well not be since 10s flat out cannot have the same class and role diversity.
    the argument for more loot per person in 25 man is that 25 man raiders work harder even before you bring encounter balance into the equation.

    its a lot harder to keep 28-35 people organized, potted, flasked, fed, aware and capable of raid mechanics, and most importantly on good terms with each other then it is 12-15 people. these things are all the responsibilities of more than just the officers and raid leaders, they can't force me to learn mechanics, they can't force me to get along with other raiders, these things are my responsibility, and frankly, its a lot harder to maintain good synergy and a good working relationship with in a 25 man raid then it is a 10 man raid.

    a 10 man raid might as well be 10 of my buddies drinking on the weekend, and frankly, that feeling was what i disliked about 10 man raiding when i tried it, even 'serious' 10 mans, a 25 man raid is serious business, it's more like a sports team, and raiders, at least raiders worth their salt, treat it as such.

    they get more loot because they work harder, i don't want to bring encounter balance into this discussion (ahem10sareeasyahem) but socially and logistically all raiders in a 25 man work harder.

    i think these discussions come up because we have people who kill bosses in pugs, don't get the piece of loot they want, and then because they don't always have a chance to repeat that kill, cry about it.
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  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrosislol View Post
    I've been a guild leader of a 10m and 25m raiding guild. The effort is not x3. Its maybe x1.2 just because you need to craft more flasks/pots
    I disagree, lots more people joining and leaving and LOTS more guild drama. Not to mention higher chance someone has a bad connection etc.
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  13. #253
    The only people in 25's that should be getting extra loot are the GL's and Officers that herd the rest of the drones in the raids.

    Been in raid groups of 60+ in Everquest down to 10man in WoW, from being GL down to just a grunt in a guild, and in my experience only a handful of people deserve those extra loots, everyone else is just a seat filler. (unless you're in a top50 WW guild or so). With how few 25's are actually running and how few of those people are leading, statistically the vast majority of people claiming 'Logistics or Effort needed for 25s is why we should get more drops' aren't part of the leadership. Most people know this and it's why that argument doesn't hold much weight.

    Just admit it, you're a grunt and you want the easier loot.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by RavenGage View Post
    I've been a GM and raid leader for over 5 years, its definitely way harder. If not 3x then at least 2x harder.
    The effort is ONLY harder for the GM/RL/Officers, outside of that it is the exact same. I've raid lead before, been an officer, loot council, recruitment officer, all of it besides GM.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    how so? rank and file raiders are what make 25 man raids tick. without 20 rank and file raiders who would only have a 10 man ( and we all know how little respect i have for 10 man). a solid, reliable raider who can show up, use his cooldowns proactively and intelligently, do good damage while not standing in stuff is incredibly rare and no 25 man can function without them.
    That sounds exactly what a good 10 man raider does. In what way is it more special to do it in a 25 man raid?

  16. #256
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    another thing that bothers me: battle rezzes. what is the fuzz with the limitation anyways? I'd rather put a penalty on the person being rezzed than limit the rezzes at all... like... damage done / healing done/recieved decreased by 25% for 1 minute. sometimes you're really screwed just by RNG and imho it's not fair to be limited to rezzes then. and put a 10 min CD (or 5 minutes, or three, or whatever) on both the one who was rezzed and the one who was the rezzer, so at least it's encouraged that people don't die twice and cannot rez/be rezzed unlimited times. it would still be some kind of limitation, but not as strict as it is now. and, additionally, simply give only healers battle rez abilities just as only healers have magic dispel... instead of DKs and WLs... I never understood why THEY have brezz tbh.

    does not change anything about the loot amount issue, but well, I addressed this some pages earlier.

  17. #257
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vapo View Post
    I dont know why you would ever use anything over disc priest in 10man. Or warrior over paladin. And even with that sort of setups that actually can use most of loots first time they drop, if you get it 2nd time or 3rd time its DE again and 50% loot wasted.
    And? If I kill Horridon and six healing trinkets drop in 25, guess what. Every healing trinket from that point forward gets wasted.

    So now your gripe is because you have fewer people the gear you need gets used and then becomes unnecessary afterwards? Honestly, at this point, I just think you want to complain more that your little niche raid experience didn't shape out to be what you had hoped. You thought you'd be swimming in the easy street of purples by taking the far more popular, far less difficult path to raiding and you're not and you're griping at this point.

    Want more useful gear? Join more useful raids. 10-man isn't there for maximizing loot, it's there for you to have the far less stressful option to raiding. Just kill bosses and enjoy the experience, that's the path you selected and that's the way you should be seeing it. Beyond that just means that you want to have your cake and eat it, too.

  18. #258
    Bloodsail Admiral moremana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RavenGage View Post
    So the people who go through triple the effort and headache to organize larger raids get nothing at all to benefit them?

    As a 10m raider I still don't think its a good idea. They deserve a little extra loot.

    Trust me, the minuscule increase in gearing speed is nowhere near enough compensation for the monumental increase in organizational headaches.
    This, on spot.

    Why do you think you should get more loot for less work, doing 10 man is a cakewalk compared to 25s. I may agree with one more drop in 10s. but 2? no
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  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    That sounds exactly what a good 10 man raider does. In what way is it more special to do it in a 25 man raid?
    because you need more of them, and because its harder to get along with everyone, or at least, maintain a good working relationship with everyone, in a larger group then it is in a smaller one? 20 solid, rank and file raiders who hate each other is useless. the more people in a raid group, the chance of interpersonal problems and poor synergy between members grows exponentially.

    seriously, its like all the 10 man raiders have forgotten how working in large groups feels.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  20. #260
    The Patient Tenaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    seriously, its like all the 10 man raiders have forgotten how working in large groups feels.
    They should join a LFR and focus on how "well" people get a long. Yes, it's a pug, but hey; they can join a LFR with 10 ppl from their 10man guild and focus on the synergies. Then they can argue that oh but those extra 15 people were pugs thus most likely had no clue of what they were doing. Well guess what, welcome to 25 man raiding. You have your core of 10-15( if lucky) good players in a mediocre 25 man guild, rest are the hangarounds who never read up a single tactic, have very selective memory and listening skills and keep wiping to same shit. It honest to God can be more annoying to do main raids in a 25 than LFR with pugs at times as people are just daft.

    Finding 25 people with a brain for 4-5 times a week raiding is statistically quite difficult, and I completely agree with the OP in that this seems to be something 10man raiders seem to forget. You can argue "well invite better players for raiding" but the arguement only takes you so far with the current selection of players in semi populated realms. So yes, as awfully bad as I feel for the 10 manners who never ever get the loot they want I can give you perspective by saying that throughout the whole last tier clearing hc Spiritbinder every reset since 3 weeks in said tier we never, _never_ had a leather intellect belt drop in 25 man. Talk about bad RNG all you want but dont be martyrs, it happens in our amazing 25 man raids too.

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