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  1. #21
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffles View Post
    90% of those top 20 US guilds (or maybe all of them), not 90% of all US guilds.
    You are probably correct there. Re-reading, the second guy did actually say 90% of the TOP 10 man guilds did it too. The original could have been stated better, the way it reads, it was saying that 90% of 25M guilds are contained within the top 20 US.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrosislol View Post
    I've been a guild leader of a 10m and 25m raiding guild. The effort is not x3. Its maybe x1.2 just because you need to craft more flasks/pots
    Looking over your sig I presume what kind of guilds that were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raone View Post
    It's not so much less loot, it's less loot per person which is and always has been hurting 10m. And yes it does ruin my fun when only 2 items drop and they both are Disenchanted especially after getting our first kill on a boss, it just completely deflates the boss kill.
    It's nobodies fault you ran into the instance on normal with upgraded heroic gear from the last tier.
    Yeah I agree it's kinda ridiculous that there are still three 10 man guilds on the first page. Should be none to be honest.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by tidus4eva View Post
    woah, hang on, so you are saying that a group with 2.5 times the amount of players of your 10 man group is getting MORE loot than the 10 man group? And that it's of a higher item level, even though it's deliberate that the larger group is supposed to be rewarded for putting in more people effort. Fancy that.

    I guess it would be nice if the bosses just dropped everything on their loot table so that you never had to kill each boss repeatedly each week. That would make much more sense?


    Who cares if 25 is getting more loot than 10, even if it's 0.5 more items? Does it ruin your fun? Why does it matter so much to a 10 man group that is doing their own progression?
    Not only 25 man has more loot per raider, but they also have significantly higher droprate for thunderforged items. The higher loot ratio I could understand but the amount of thunderforged they get is beyond ridiculous and definately not explainable by "more effort because of recruiting and blah blah blah". One could put up an argument that 10 mans are putting more effort in the progression itself because the tuning is kind of harsh at the moment, even after the few health nerfs, shouldn't that extra-effort be rewarded by loot? That's how your logic works.

    Someone trying to defend that 25 mans have RNG with loot too could just open their eyes. Of course 25man can have bad RNG aswell, but it's not happening as often as in 10 man. How many cases of 25man raid guilds do you guys know that didn't have a single caster weapon drop from MGV/HoF (normal+heroic) for over 2 months? That's what our casters went through, most of them used pvp weapons for a long long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    Looking over your sig I presume what kind of guilds that were.

    It's nobodies fault you ran into the instance on normal with upgraded heroic gear from the last tier.
    Yeah I agree it's kinda ridiculous that there are still three 10 man guilds on the first page. Should be none to be honest.
    It's not really that much of effort. The realm you're located on has a lot higher impact on recruitment than being 25m or 10m. If you're on a realm with 95% of peeps being retarded (like stormreaver-eu is), you could consider migrating. The guild I'm in was 25 man before but couldn't recruit people because of too much competition at the time (we were coming back from a long break after wotlk).

    This kind of stupid argumentation makes me just mad so I'm not going to bother after this one post. If you're that ignorant that you can't admit 25m having way easier time to gear up... I feel sorry for you.

    I could also mention that I don't want a huge increase in loot. The suggestion made by starter of this thread was an decent one, but as been said I'd rather see something done to reduce the amount of RNG in 10mans. Maybe something similar to sunwell where you could trade certain items to another.

    We'll see if anything happens. I'm not having too high hopes though.
    Last edited by Jiigeri; 2013-04-01 at 08:39 AM.
    Main: Rogue - Alt: Balance Druid

  4. #24
    As others have stated, it isn't the amount of loot, but the usefulness of drops.

    In a 25m, you most likely have relatively even spread of usefulness for all gear that drops; unless there is a class stacking advantage.

    In a 10m, you most likely have quite a few drops that will be of little to no use to your raid.

    With those two thoughts in mind, what you get is a 25m that uses most if not all the drops, gearing up their group efficiently and much faster than a 10m who may be destroying half+ drops in the raid.

    It is all in the blizz theory of 'rng is fun and keeps you playing' ... when it is really a shitty excuse to prolong content for the wrong reasons (gear) instead of the right reasons (fun, challenging content with friends that you want to do even for little to no reward).

    I feel the gearing/drop system needs a complete revamp. You should essentially be rewarded for your efforts and skills within a respectable amount of time. It sort of was this way in the past. Best personal example I experienced was in wrath ... DFO and Spyglass would-not-drop ... never saw it drop, the whole year I went in there. For my build and spec, it was my BiS. I never even saw them drop on alts. So, rng being rng, I killed those bosses well over 100x, and never saw those two trinkets drop once. When that happens, there is a problem.

    If they can roll out content every 4-6 months, and if you raid every week, you should have a reasonable expectation to be somewhat geared before next xpac; especially if you clear the entire raid weekly. rng states that you might not have -any- drops, no matter how good you are. I think that is somewhat disrespectful. You shouldn't be given loot, but that is where the valor/justice/raid rep vendors should be filling in gaps and making up for strings of bad luck. Come up with a third tier of currency, for heroic only, OR two raiding only currencies, one for normal, one for heroic ... just give valor to the LFR/daily/etc people for their 'welfare' epics. Allow people to buy a downgraded version of a raid drop (- 3 ilvl?) ... tune the drop rate of the currency so that if a person full clears the raid every week, they can earn enough points to either get a piece (16 pieces means 4 months of bad rng and you'd still have a - 3 ilvl set of gear comparable to your raiding level). This in turn, would allow people with good rng to work on offsets.


    But imo, there is no loot issue with number of drops, to be clear. The issue is usability of loot. If 10 dropped 3 pieces and 25 9 ... a good chance 2/3 of the 10m loot will be disenchanted, while 2/3+ of the 25m will go to players, either main or off-specs ... based on my past experiences.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by RavenGage View Post
    So the people who go through triple the effort and headache to organize larger raids get nothing at all to benefit them?

    As a 10m raider I still don't think its a good idea. They deserve a little extra loot.

    Trust me, the minuscule increase in gearing speed is nowhere near enough compensation for the monumental increase in organizational headaches.
    I did 25 man at the beginning of mop, i showed up, did my job went to sleep, like did the other 19 something people in the raid, it was just the 5 something officers that had more work

    but hey I am fine with the current system, weeds out the loot whores out of the 10 mans

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    Looking over your sig I presume what kind of guilds that were.
    Looking over your sig I presume you do nothing outside of forum browse.

    Just because I play multi games and dont care what people think of the games I play doesnt instantly make me a bad player.

    But you know im sure everyone was rocking hand of adal/firelord/dragonslayer etc while it was current content
    I play many games. WoW, Rift, D3, PoE, SC2 I will not criticize your game choice if you don't mine.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    I did 25 man at the beginning of mop, i showed up, did my job went to sleep, like did the other 19 something people in the raid, it was just the 5 something officers that had more work

    but hey I am fine with the current system, weeds out the loot whores out of the 10 mans
    Its still harder for that 25m guild to even exist, due to those organizational and logistic issues. Its ok if they're rewarded with a small amount of extra loot (and it is small).

    Like someone said on the previous page, the main issue isn't so much the number of loot as it is the type distribution. You disenchant way too much in 10m after the first few weeks. Any solution should focus on making 10m loot more likely to be used but the solutions of that kind can be kind of complex and have side effects.


  8. #28
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrosislol View Post
    Recruiting wasnt a problem we had a 32 man roster. You just need to present your guild and make it attractive. Past achievements helped. (This was during tbc and we had kael and vashj down earlier then most). Also the server was alive. Its not hard to recruit if you make it so people come to you wanting in, not you searching every nook an cranny for them.
    You really can't compare TBC raiding, where the only way to progress beyond Kara was 25 man raids, with today.

    The problem is the size of the loot tables, they're completely bloated. If they were much more streamlined a lot more of the gear that drops for 10s would be useful. That's a far better solution than extra drops for 10 mans.

  9. #29
    Mechagnome
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    OP the difference is intentional...

  10. #30
    blizzard is trying to keep 25man alive

    yes they get more loot per person. and in ToT, they get higher ilevel loot also

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrosislol View Post
    I think its more of the fact that in 10man a lot of loot gets sharded /shrug.

    Sucks getting hunter every week without a hunter etc
    This happens very much in 25man raids as well. We for example don't have holy paladin. Every boss that drops int plate drops it. Every. Single. Reset. We've also been disenchanting hunter weapons since week 1 (we got 2 hunters), while half of plate team is still using t14 weapons. And don't get me even started on tier tokens. My main got t14 shoulders only last week of t14 during an alt raid. Never got t14 gloves...

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by h4rr0d View Post
    This happens very much in 25man raids as well. We for example don't have holy paladin. Every boss that drops int plate drops it. Every. Single. Reset. We've also been disenchanting hunter weapons since week 1 (we got 2 hunters), while half of plate team is still using t14 weapons. And don't get me even started on tier tokens. My main got t14 shoulders only last week of t14 during an alt raid. Never got t14 gloves...
    Of course it happens everywhere, but statistically its much more likely to happen in 10m.

    Early on in the tier its about the same, but about halfway through getting geared out (as in half item slots) 10m gearing slows down to about half the speed of 25m gearing due to wasted items.

    The math was done a while back but alas, I don't have a link to the thread anymore.


  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by momirmaster View Post
    Tell that to paragon. Who had the same ilvl's as the 25 guilds and were still barely beating some of the checks that Method/BL were beating easy. like 5 of the fight this tier have higher checks on 10 than 25. Where as only like 3 fights have easier checks on 10 than 25. horridon (enrage timer only), Twins (prenerf now is joke on 25), and Ji-kun,
    Paragon ran alt 25 mans runs to funel gear to theyre mains so it doesnt count at all.

    I agree 25 mans should have more loot per player but I also agree 10 mans drop way too few intes per boss, Id liek to see 10 mans dropping 3 itens and 25s 9 per kill, youd keep the proportion of itens dropped on 25 to 10 the same and would help 10 mans alot. And you may say 9 itens per boss for a 25 is just too much but the loot tbales nowadays are sper bloated its not realy an issue.

    I just find the whole argument of 25 mans need incentives or itll die kinda dumb realy, ppl were given an option and they chose to run 10 man for a variety of reasons, so stop trying to "save 25s" ppl who like it run 25s, theres still plenty of 25 guilds out there its alot less tham the 10 man guilds but theyre far from dead.
    Last edited by DakonBlackblade; 2013-04-01 at 11:14 AM.

  14. #34
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by iskla View Post
    The problem is the size of the loot tables, they're completely bloated. If they were much more streamlined a lot more of the gear that drops for 10s would be useful. That's a far better solution than extra drops for 10 mans.
    The thing is, if they do that, plenty of people will whine about Blizzard dumbing down the game. -_-

  15. #35
    So what should they do, increase drops to 3? then 25m should drop 7,5~.. 8?
    Suddenly it's uneven again!

    25m needs the bonus anyway, easy to understand even for me who thinks 25ms are outdated
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    So what should they do, increase drops to 3? then 25m should drop 7,5~.. 8?
    Suddenly it's uneven again!

    25m needs the bonus anyway, easy to understand even for me who thinks 25ms are outdated
    25s should them drop 8 or 9, the problem isnt with how unevean 25 and 10 loot distribution is, its with how terribad it is on 10 mans. Were on the 4th week of ToT my guild hasnt even started heroics yet (next week yay) and we already Ded half of this weeks run, literaly half. Them you can say "but thats cause you guys are well geared already" and no we arent we have and average ilevel of 514 or so, half of us dont even have 522 weapons yet. Its just plain terrible how many itens drop on 10 mans that no one need.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrosislol View Post
    Recruiting wasnt a problem we had a 32 man roster. You just need to present your guild and make it attractive. Past achievements helped. (This was during tbc and we had kael and vashj down earlier then most). Also the server was alive. Its not hard to recruit if you make it so people come to you wanting in, not you searching every nook an cranny for them.

    Haha are you talking about Burning Crusade when all raiders did 25's? Because recruiting has gotten a lot harder since then when 80% of the recruitment pool dried up.

  18. #38
    I raid 10 mans, I've only ever raided 10 mans with the exception of a short period of time during wotlk when i was pugging them. Primarily due to a poor computer.

    To this day i don't understand why 25man needs more incentives to "stay alive", If people preferred 25 man raids, People would run 25 man raids. They clearly don't, I clearly don't. I don't want to deal with 24(30~ with reserves) other people, it's too big of a social group, despite the statistical advantages, i shouldn't feel like we're missing out simply because nobody on the server wants to do 25 mans(There's no 25 man guilds on my server, it's medium/high with a nice amount of raiders)

    And i don't understand why blizzard is incentivizing loot in 25 man while leaving open the blatant problems with 10 man. We have roster issues just the same(It can still be difficult to get the 8 buffs plus bl, cr when you have limited space and limited recruitment), I don't know about 25 man but in 10 man it's pretty difficult to just permanently bench someone who has had perfect attendance and performance who you now know well after 3 months of raiding. simply because you need another class to get the best out of the rest of your raid, or a certain buff, or to fill a certain loot hole.

    loot is always getting sharded and thrown to offspecs constantly because nobody can use it on their mainspec. I find giving better loot to 25 mans extremely illogical when they already get more than 10 man and better use out of it. i'd like to see 3 or 4 pieces drop in 10 man, but have to choose 2 of those 3/4. I think that could assist with the distribution problems.


    Saying all this, I'd prefer to move to 15 man and abolish both raid sizes completely.

  19. #39
    You get less loot because you don't have to deal with the logistics of recruiting and maintaining a roster of 25 people who are skilled enough to do the content and execute mechanics. That is the tradeoff. It does not have to be equal when you choose to look at only one facet. You gearing slower is the price of convenience. Deal with it.

  20. #40
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    I never understood why 25-man needs more incentive. I thought people who raid 25-man do it because they like raiding 25-man. Logistical increase - is a natural payment for the entertainment. The ability to raid 25-man - is the reward in itself. No?

    All the Blizzard does with the loot in 25-man is simply calling 25-man raiders - LOOT WHORES.
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