Yeah I agree it's kinda ridiculous that there are still three 10 man guilds on the first page. Should be none to be honest.
Someone trying to defend that 25 mans have RNG with loot too could just open their eyes. Of course 25man can have bad RNG aswell, but it's not happening as often as in 10 man. How many cases of 25man raid guilds do you guys know that didn't have a single caster weapon drop from MGV/HoF (normal+heroic) for over 2 months? That's what our casters went through, most of them used pvp weapons for a long long time.
This kind of stupid argumentation makes me just mad so I'm not going to bother after this one post. If you're that ignorant that you can't admit 25m having way easier time to gear up... I feel sorry for you.
I could also mention that I don't want a huge increase in loot. The suggestion made by starter of this thread was an decent one, but as been said I'd rather see something done to reduce the amount of RNG in 10mans. Maybe something similar to sunwell where you could trade certain items to another.
We'll see if anything happens. I'm not having too high hopes though.
Last edited by Jiigeri; 2013-04-01 at 08:39 AM.
As others have stated, it isn't the amount of loot, but the usefulness of drops.
In a 25m, you most likely have relatively even spread of usefulness for all gear that drops; unless there is a class stacking advantage.
In a 10m, you most likely have quite a few drops that will be of little to no use to your raid.
With those two thoughts in mind, what you get is a 25m that uses most if not all the drops, gearing up their group efficiently and much faster than a 10m who may be destroying half+ drops in the raid.
It is all in the blizz theory of 'rng is fun and keeps you playing' ... when it is really a shitty excuse to prolong content for the wrong reasons (gear) instead of the right reasons (fun, challenging content with friends that you want to do even for little to no reward).
I feel the gearing/drop system needs a complete revamp. You should essentially be rewarded for your efforts and skills within a respectable amount of time. It sort of was this way in the past. Best personal example I experienced was in wrath ... DFO and Spyglass would-not-drop ... never saw it drop, the whole year I went in there. For my build and spec, it was my BiS. I never even saw them drop on alts. So, rng being rng, I killed those bosses well over 100x, and never saw those two trinkets drop once. When that happens, there is a problem.
If they can roll out content every 4-6 months, and if you raid every week, you should have a reasonable expectation to be somewhat geared before next xpac; especially if you clear the entire raid weekly. rng states that you might not have -any- drops, no matter how good you are. I think that is somewhat disrespectful. You shouldn't be given loot, but that is where the valor/justice/raid rep vendors should be filling in gaps and making up for strings of bad luck. Come up with a third tier of currency, for heroic only, OR two raiding only currencies, one for normal, one for heroic ... just give valor to the LFR/daily/etc people for their 'welfare' epics. Allow people to buy a downgraded version of a raid drop (- 3 ilvl?) ... tune the drop rate of the currency so that if a person full clears the raid every week, they can earn enough points to either get a piece (16 pieces means 4 months of bad rng and you'd still have a - 3 ilvl set of gear comparable to your raiding level). This in turn, would allow people with good rng to work on offsets.
But imo, there is no loot issue with number of drops, to be clear. The issue is usability of loot. If 10 dropped 3 pieces and 25 9 ... a good chance 2/3 of the 10m loot will be disenchanted, while 2/3+ of the 25m will go to players, either main or off-specs ... based on my past experiences.
but hey I am fine with the current system, weeds out the loot whores out of the 10 mans
Just because I play multi games and dont care what people think of the games I play doesnt instantly make me a bad player.
But you know im sure everyone was rocking hand of adal/firelord/dragonslayer etc while it was current content
I play many games. WoW, Rift, D3, PoE, SC2 I will not criticize your game choice if you don't mine.
Like someone said on the previous page, the main issue isn't so much the number of loot as it is the type distribution. You disenchant way too much in 10m after the first few weeks. Any solution should focus on making 10m loot more likely to be used but the solutions of that kind can be kind of complex and have side effects.
The problem is the size of the loot tables, they're completely bloated. If they were much more streamlined a lot more of the gear that drops for 10s would be useful. That's a far better solution than extra drops for 10 mans.
OP the difference is intentional...
Warlock - Main - now with GREEN FIRE!
Resto Shaman - Main Alt
Exception - Recruiting for 25man heroic progression
blizzard is trying to keep 25man alive
yes they get more loot per person. and in ToT, they get higher ilevel loot also
Early on in the tier its about the same, but about halfway through getting geared out (as in half item slots) 10m gearing slows down to about half the speed of 25m gearing due to wasted items.
The math was done a while back but alas, I don't have a link to the thread anymore.
I agree 25 mans should have more loot per player but I also agree 10 mans drop way too few intes per boss, Id liek to see 10 mans dropping 3 itens and 25s 9 per kill, youd keep the proportion of itens dropped on 25 to 10 the same and would help 10 mans alot. And you may say 9 itens per boss for a 25 is just too much but the loot tbales nowadays are sper bloated its not realy an issue.
I just find the whole argument of 25 mans need incentives or itll die kinda dumb realy, ppl were given an option and they chose to run 10 man for a variety of reasons, so stop trying to "save 25s" ppl who like it run 25s, theres still plenty of 25 guilds out there its alot less tham the 10 man guilds but theyre far from dead.
Last edited by DakonBlackblade; 2013-04-01 at 11:14 AM.
So what should they do, increase drops to 3? then 25m should drop 7,5~.. 8?
Suddenly it's uneven again!
25m needs the bonus anyway, easy to understand even for me who thinks 25ms are outdated
5:2 diet? Pft!
Weight lost since 21st of June: 52kg/~115lb
I raid 10 mans, I've only ever raided 10 mans with the exception of a short period of time during wotlk when i was pugging them. Primarily due to a poor computer.
To this day i don't understand why 25man needs more incentives to "stay alive", If people preferred 25 man raids, People would run 25 man raids. They clearly don't, I clearly don't. I don't want to deal with 24(30~ with reserves) other people, it's too big of a social group, despite the statistical advantages, i shouldn't feel like we're missing out simply because nobody on the server wants to do 25 mans(There's no 25 man guilds on my server, it's medium/high with a nice amount of raiders)
And i don't understand why blizzard is incentivizing loot in 25 man while leaving open the blatant problems with 10 man. We have roster issues just the same(It can still be difficult to get the 8 buffs plus bl, cr when you have limited space and limited recruitment), I don't know about 25 man but in 10 man it's pretty difficult to just permanently bench someone who has had perfect attendance and performance who you now know well after 3 months of raiding. simply because you need another class to get the best out of the rest of your raid, or a certain buff, or to fill a certain loot hole.
loot is always getting sharded and thrown to offspecs constantly because nobody can use it on their mainspec. I find giving better loot to 25 mans extremely illogical when they already get more than 10 man and better use out of it. i'd like to see 3 or 4 pieces drop in 10 man, but have to choose 2 of those 3/4. I think that could assist with the distribution problems.
Saying all this, I'd prefer to move to 15 man and abolish both raid sizes completely.
You get less loot because you don't have to deal with the logistics of recruiting and maintaining a roster of 25 people who are skilled enough to do the content and execute mechanics. That is the tradeoff. It does not have to be equal when you choose to look at only one facet. You gearing slower is the price of convenience. Deal with it.
I never understood why 25-man needs more incentive. I thought people who raid 25-man do it because they like raiding 25-man. Logistical increase - is a natural payment for the entertainment. The ability to raid 25-man - is the reward in itself. No?
All the Blizzard does with the loot in 25-man is simply calling 25-man raiders - LOOT WHORES.
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