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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    I never understood why 25-man needs more incentive. I thought people who raid 25-man do it because they like raiding 25-man. Logistical increase - is a natural payment for the entertainment. The ability to raid 25-man - is the reward in itself. No?

    All the Blizzard does with the loot in 25-man is simply calling 25-man raiders - LOOT WHORES.
    By this statement surely people who run 10 mans should be content with the loot they get because after all, people run 10 man to play with 9 close friends.

    This argument is totally dumb.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    I never understood why 25-man needs more incentive. I thought people who raid 25-man do it because they like raiding 25-man. Logistical increase - is a natural payment for the entertainment. The ability to raid 25-man - is the reward in itself. No?

    All the Blizzard does with the loot in 25-man is simply calling 25-man raiders - LOOT WHORES.
    25 mans are easier for quite a few reasons. I don't know a raider that did both 10 and 25 mans at a decent level (let's say top 2000) and says that 25 mans are harder.
    And people don't even complain about the amount of gear you get in 25 mans. They complain about the shit gear in 10mans.
    We didn't have a holy paladin or an agility leather user last tier and guess what, all the loot was just that so we had to DE it. I myself went ~4months without getting a new piece of loot, pala/priest/warlock tiers were simply not there and my first heroic item dropped in the last week before ToT.
    We finished our heroic "progression" at ~494 guild average level and our highest ilvl was a monk, a healer monk... he had 507 ilvl ON HIS DPS OFF SPEC GEAR and 490 on his main spec.


    I don't give a shit about how many items 25mans get... but when we have healers and tanks forced to go into HM''s still with blue and later in THRONE OF THUNDER HEROIC still with fucking 471 blues it kinda of hurts you >.> . I'm fine with getting 2 items off a boss but please for the love of god make them useful.
    We are currently making our 3rd pair of boots with Haunting Spirits.
    That's 20 (sold 2) items DE'd out of 36 boss kill (72 drops)... that's almost 25% loot that gets thrown away in 10mans >.< .

  3. #43
    Brewmaster Voidgazer's Avatar
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    I'm absolutely fine with the loot amount differences in 10 and 25 AS LONG AS THE ILVL IS THE SAME.
    That's why you need me.... Need someone to punish you for your sins.

  4. #44
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    By this statement surely people who run 10 mans should be content with the loot they get because after all, people run 10 man to play with 9 close friends.
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    This argument is totally dumb.
    Are you arguing with yourself?

    1. People raid in 10-man for various reasons (that are not loot). "Close friends" being just one of them.
    2. There's too much loot and there's too little loot. Too little loot is a bad thing for a raid of ANY size. 10-man gets too little loot due to the inflation of the loot table which in turn has only 2 slots to give loot out. Most of the loot goes to DE - not because everyone is decked out already (like in 25-man), but because the loot is for a class or spec that is not present or present but is decked out already (that 1 lucky person). This can happen in 25-man but to a lesser degree.
    3. There's 0.2 items per raider in 10-man. For 25-man it's 0.24. And most importantly 6 items provide more diverse loot per drop, so some one will get an upgrade from EVERY boss. Compare it to 2 items in 10-man - one item is for the hunter you don't have (a bow), the other is for the protection paladin/warrior you don't have (a shield) or it's 2 items for two classes you have but they already have items in the slots via Valor Points (that means they raided empty-handed long enough to accumulate enough VP) or craft.
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2013-04-01 at 12:57 PM.
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  5. #45
    Bring a better raid comp if loot goes to waste.

  6. #46
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    Bring a better raid comp if loot goes to waste.
    Are you suggesting that we should bench the guy for a particular boss because he has everything he needs from it?
    Ok, who are we gonna bring in his stead? And what if boss drops loot for that benched guy's class? How can we predict what boss drops?
    And aren't we entitled for bonus loot for increased logistics?
    My Little Borg: Friendship is Irrelevant

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Woceip View Post
    You get less loot because you don't have to deal with the logistics of recruiting and maintaining a roster of 25 people who are skilled enough to do the content and execute mechanics. That is the tradeoff. It does not have to be equal when you choose to look at only one facet. You gearing slower is the price of convenience. Deal with it.
    how is it any more difficult than managing a 10 man team?

    More people are present, But by that definition oondasta should be dropping hundreds of thunderforged pieces every kill.

    It's not like the burden is that much heavier, Any coordinated 25 man guild has management delegated to like 4 or 5 different people. Sometimes more if there's loot council.

    You could even go as far as to say a lot of 25 man fights are easier, and their 10 man counterparts are overtuned (prenerf horridon, Council off the top off my head). Although i hear this is also reverse for other fights, but i'm not sure which.

    10 man teams still have to be skilled and execute mechanics perfectly, Sometimes even more so because there's only one cr and each individual person carries more responsibility and is less expendable in 10 mans. i don't get why this means 25 mans should get the advantages it does? 2.5x times the loot is appropriate, not having wasted loot is an advantage in itself. getting 3x plus 2.5x the chance to get thunderforged is silly.

    As far as recruitment for 25 mans, My current guild has 3 10 man teams plus a set of reserves. We could field a 25 man raid with no problem. we choose not to because we prefer 10 mans, just like most other guilds. Why should we be at a statistical disadvantage to a 25 man raid because of that? They're clearly not significantly more difficult or we wouldnt have 9/10 of the top 10 raid teams be 25m.

    It does have to be equal, and i won't "deal with it".

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigeri View Post
    This kind of stupid argumentation makes me just mad so I'm not going to bother after this one post. If you're that ignorant that you can't admit 25m having way easier time to gear up... I feel sorry for you.
    Right of course as having to handle ~35 people in comparison to ~13 is of course exactly the same. And of course you gear slightly faster as a guild and nobody claimed otherwise. Don't know about the status of your reading comprehension but I don't really see myself or someone else claiming it wasn't the case. Point was it's irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    And aren't we entitled for bonus loot for increased logistics?
    For that increased logistics of having one person benched. Chuckle worthy.

  9. #49
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    For that increased logistics of having one person benched. Chuckle worthy.
    Per boss.
    We must have a roster of up to 20 people in guild online to not waste loot from bosses.
    If you think managing 25 raid members is hard - think about managing 20 raid members with 10 of them on the bench. Each one has to be baby-sat.
    My Little Borg: Friendship is Irrelevant

  10. #50
    loot in 10mans was always an issue, noting has been done for years, I donr really expect anything to be done either. of course its ridiculous, when you kill 4 heroic bosses for the first time and 2 items go to offspecs and rest gets sharded, but it just means you are gonna do the raid next weeks and pay more money for subsriction.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by DakonBlackblade View Post
    Paragon ran alt 25 mans runs to funel gear to theyre mains so it doesnt count at all.

    I agree 25 mans should have more loot per player but I also agree 10 mans drop way too few intes per boss, Id liek to see 10 mans dropping 3 itens and 25s 9 per kill, youd keep the proportion of itens dropped on 25 to 10 the same and would help 10 mans alot. And you may say 9 itens per boss for a 25 is just too much but the loot tbales nowadays are sper bloated its not realy an issue.

    I just find the whole argument of 25 mans need incentives or itll die kinda dumb realy, ppl were given an option and they chose to run 10 man for a variety of reasons, so stop trying to "save 25s" ppl who like it run 25s, theres still plenty of 25 guilds out there its alot less tham the 10 man guilds but theyre far from dead.
    I wish people like you could actually get their facts straight about paragon because they did not run any 25 man to funnel gear this tier, they only did it during t14, this tier on the other hand they ran 3 10 man runs. The fun part here is that they were still far off the 25 mans I lvl by around 3. One could argue that they should have run 6 10 man runs as blood legion did but the thing is that 3 is the optimal way because there is 3 tokens and as long as u have 1 each of cloth/leather/mail/plate in each run u will optimize the gear by just running 3 10 mans. So in theory that should make paragon have the same I lvl or close to the 25 mans right? They were as far off as 3 item levels, now add the ridicoulos tuning to the 10 man heroics this tier and you see why paragon took as long as they did to clear the tier before the 25 man guilds
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  12. #52
    I know it would cause some loot headaches for the 10mans but just have 10 man bosses drop the same number of pieces as 25, they get to pick 2 of those and the rest vanish. would solve allot of the issue of loot getting de'd, sure could have some arguments about what loot to keep if you get allot of useful things but ide rather have that then a bank full of shards like we have now.

  13. #53
    just... try... to lead.... a 25-men HL raid...
    just... try... to organize... 25-men raids...
    so... shut up, and thanks blizz for your 10-men freeloots.

    Infracted. -Azshira
    Last edited by Azshira; 2013-04-02 at 12:01 AM.

  14. #54
    Stood in the Fire Deztru's Avatar
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    25 man also has more people rolling as example for tier pieces, in 10man you (hopefully) don't have 4 people after 1 tier piece.

    So 25man gets more loot per player, but player's get less loot per kill.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Pej View Post
    just... try... to lead.... a 25-men HL raid...
    just... try... to organize... 25-men raids...
    so... shut up, and thanks blizz for your 10-men freeloots.
    This is exactly why we can't have nice things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destruktio View Post
    25 man also has more people rolling as example for tier pieces, in 10man you (hopefully) don't have 4 people after 1 tier piece.

    So 25man gets more loot per player, but player's get less loot per kill.
    The problem is there's a huge chance loot in 10mans will get wasted while in 25mans someone else could use it. If a plate drops in a 10-man, you might have 1 guy that needs it vs 3-4 in 25mans. We were disenchanting more loot (we had one week where we had to DE 20/24 items) while progressing than we were actually using. Until now in ToT we DE'd 25%~ish of the items we got ><.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Destruktio View Post
    25 man also has more people rolling as example for tier pieces, in 10man you (hopefully) don't have 4 people after 1 tier piece.
    How do you run 10man without atleast one token being desired by 4 people? ...

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    How do you run 10man without atleast one token being desired by 4 people? ...
    get pro and run with only 9 duh

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Are you suggesting that we should bench the guy for a particular boss because he has everything he needs from it?
    Yes, 25 man guilds do that. 10 man guilds should as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Ok, who are we gonna bring in his stead? And what if boss drops loot for that benched guy's class? How can we predict what boss drops?
    And aren't we entitled for bonus loot for increased logistics?
    This is why 25 man guilds normally have a roster of 35-45 people and thus need the extra loot in order to gear people up sufficiently. 10 mans, on the other hand, can often run with 11-13 as their roster.

  19. #59
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    Yes, 25 man guilds do that. 10 man guilds should as well.
    25 man guilds only do that if they have extra people in the guild who want to raid - same as 10 man guilds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    This is why 25 man guilds normally have a roster of 35-45 people and thus need the extra loot in order to gear people up sufficiently. 10 mans, on the other hand, can often run with 11-13 as their roster.
    Don't be ridiculous. A 25-man guild doesn't need more than 30 people in the guild. If they have 45 online - they can raid 1 25s and 2 10s at the same TIME.
    My Little Borg: Friendship is Irrelevant

  20. #60
    You guys do realise that the difference come from thundeforged being 10% in 10 man and 25% in 25 man, which is an intentional feature.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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