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  1. #1
    Brewmaster Sarithus's Avatar
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    Level 30 - Trouble tanking

    Hello. I've rolled a Paladin and am currently level 30. This is my first tank ever. Things were going pretty good until recently.

    - I seem to lose aggro quickly even on a target I'm attacking and on which I've used reckoning.
    - It's sometimes hard to control large packs of mobs, especially if my spells are on CD.
    My 'rotation'

    Righteous Fury is on
    Pull with Avenger's shield if more than 1 mob/Use reckoning on 1 mob
    Next I'll use Holy Wrath so I can hit every target in range
    Use reckoning on targets that are yellow, ones that I'm not sure I have
    Continue and use Crusader strike and judgment
    And repeat, using those spells as they become active

    But if there's a lot of mobs I can't control them. I feel like I really need Consecration. Also recently pet's that don't have taunt on seem to be pulling aggro even on a mob I'm working on. There was also a Warrior that was pulling aggro sometimes even after I applied all of the stuff mentioned.

    Am I missing something?
    Last edited by Sarithus; 2013-03-28 at 01:14 AM.
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  2. #2
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
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    Pull using AS everytime. Reckoning is a tuna, you should only save those for mobs that go after your other dps/healer. At level 30, you're likely to be grouped with people with full heirlooms, and it's almost impossible for you to hold aggro if you aren't decked out in heirlooms yourself. There's not much you can do really, and it's not a big deal until you have a bigger repertoire of spells.

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  3. #3
    Epic! Gracin's Avatar
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    Are you not using Hammer of the Righteous? Also, Reckoning only has a taunt effect on mobs that aren't already attacking you. Using it on mobs that are already attacking is a useless.
    Last edited by Gracin; 2013-03-28 at 01:22 AM.

  4. #4
    Brewmaster Sarithus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    Pull using AS everytime. Reckoning is a tuna, you should only save those for mobs that go after your other dps/healer. At level 30, you're likely to be grouped with people with full heirlooms, and it's almost impossible for you to hold aggro if you aren't decked out in heirlooms yourself. There's not much you can do really, and it's not a big deal until you have a bigger repertoire of spells.
    Thanks for the input, but that seems sort of unrealistic. The only way to properly tank countless dungeons is to wait on AS CD every pack? Still, that is what I do most of the time if the rare occasion that we're finished with a pack before the CD resets comes up and I have to pull before it's done. So I use AS on most pulls, and I still have the trouble described. Things still get out of hand even with me using reckoning a lot more than I probably should. If a tank can't hold aggro against people with heirlooms, then I guess I better prepare to be called a horrible tank countless times.
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  5. #5
    You didn't list Hammer of the Righteous which is a pretty important ability.


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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    Pull using AS everytime. Reckoning is a tuna, you should only save those for mobs that go after your other dps/healer. At level 30, you're likely to be grouped with people with full heirlooms, and it's almost impossible for you to hold aggro if you aren't decked out in heirlooms yourself. There's not much you can do really, and it's not a big deal until you have a bigger repertoire of spells.
    I'd say that's the biggest problem, they are very likely decked out in heirlooms while the OP isn't, tanking against heirloomed players when you're not is a huge pain a lot of the time.

    Though if you're not using HoR that could be a problem too.

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer ViridianWRA's Avatar
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    Also, you're level 30?


    Who cares until 90? A mage in grays could tank vanilla dungeons >.>

    You mean I have room for text now?

  8. #8
    Brewmaster Sarithus's Avatar
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    So AS as soon as I can, obviously.
    HoR (I had it on my bar, but I misread the description and didn't know it hit multiple targets)
    Holy Wrath
    Other melee attacks (Assuming I'll have time for those in between stuff)
    Repeat (or save AS for the next pack if the current one is almost dead)

    and save Reckoning for a time of need?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 01:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    Also, you're level 30?


    Who cares until 90? A mage in grays could tank vanilla dungeons >.>
    I know, but it's not a great feeling being called a bad tank by idiots. Especially bad when people leave when I'm doing all I can. (Apart from forgetting HoR) That's only happened a couple of times though, in Scarlet halls and monastery where there are more mobs to deal with.
    Last edited by Sarithus; 2013-03-28 at 01:35 AM.
    My Warrior
    Arms Proving Grounds Guide
    When you walk among the Black Forest...you will see.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarithus View Post
    So AS as soon as I can, obviously.
    HoR (I had it on my bar, but I misread the description and didn't know it hit multiple targets)
    Holy Wrath
    Other melee attacks (Assuming I'll have time for those in between stuff)
    Repeat (or save AS for the next pack if the current one is almost dead)

    and save Reckoning for a time of need?
    That sounds about right. Make sure to use HoR as much as you can as it is your biggest Holy Power generator, together with Judgement. You could also save using AS for caster mobs to make them come to you since AS has a silence effect in case you didn't know that. HoR is the most important tanking spell you have against pack of mobs, Crusader mostly use it when tanking single target mobs. After using HoR, you have a few secs to use another spell before you need cast HoR again, which where you have already listed, can use Holy Wrath, Judgement, AS etc.

    Hopefully that helped. Don't listen to other people who call you bad. Everyone learns at one point, so did they. People these days have no patience with others. Do it in your own pace and if they don't like it, they have the option to leave, just don't feel too offended by it. And as others have stated, it is a low-level dungeon and the chance of encountering heirlooms-packed players is a high probabililty, in which case it's not easy at all to keep threat off them.

    Good luck.

  10. #10
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarithus View Post
    Thanks for the input, but that seems sort of unrealistic. The only way to properly tank countless dungeons is to wait on AS CD every pack?
    No, that's not what I meant. I mean you shouldn't pull using Reckoning if you have AS up, because even on single target, AS will give you a threat lead. You shouldn't "save" it, to put it another way. When you get higher level, you will have an ability to reset its cooldown, so get used to always using it.

    And yes, hammer always. Hammer gives you a 10% reduction to physical damage done by enemy. On multiple targets, use that in place on CS. On single target, use it to keep the debuff up on the mob.
    If a tank can't hold aggro against people with heirlooms, then I guess I better prepare to be called a horrible tank countless times.
    Keep your chin up. Who cares if someone calls you horrible? You are learning, and losing threat to heirloom geared players is not a shame. Keep using this period of leveling to learn and get used to tanking, because at level 90, you don't have any excuse for losing threat anymore.

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  11. #11
    One thing that has been hinted at but not fully ran with is the way your taunt (reckoning) actually works, you'll need to understand this later.

    Taunts do not actually give you any threat on a target that is out of combat, it simply forces that target to attack you for x number of seconds. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's 6 seconds that it forces the target to attack you. If you taunt a target that is attacking someone else, it gives you threat equal to their current threat value while still forcing it to attack you for x seconds. Taunt has no effect if the target is in combat and attacking you.

    The yellow bars you mentioned in the first post typically (some addons and/or settings alter this) mean that the mob is attacking you but someone else in the group is about to take over threat. This means that if you taunt it while the bar is yellow, it will have no effect and you have wasted your taunt CD. Instead of taunting a 'yellow' mob, simply target it and hit it with whatever happens to be next in your rotation. This will get that mob back on you under normal circumstances, given dps that have a significant gear advantage on you the mob will sometimes still go after them. If that happens, you'll see it (if you don't have target of my target turned on, go turn it on now) and your taunt will be available to get that enemy back where it needs to be.

    That is why people correctly advise you to pull with a damage ability, so that you get initial threat on the target instead of just making it yours for 6 seconds. I do not know the theorycrafting behind how much more powerful initial threat is but I know that it is much harder to get threat on a target that someone else hit first than to keep it on a target that you hit first.

    If you start seeing that your 3 dps players are all hitting 3 different targets with single target dps rotations, start marking targets. It is nigh impossible to hold threat on all the targets when this happens, as the damage they are doing to the individual targets will be significantly higher than your aoe capabilities can handle. This will remain true all the way to level cap. If for some odd reason they refuse to aoe, they need to all be hitting the same thing so that you can focus that target as well and stand a chance of holding threat. Remind them that aoe will almost always increase their numbers on recount, that's what matters most at the end of the pull. Sarcasm intended.

    I'll echo what others have said about HoR usage. You'll get there, you have a decent idea of how this works and asking for information is NEVER a bad sign.

    PS - Some Warriors (ie, the bad ones) have a habit of dpsing in defensive stance, which has the same effect as your righteous fury. If that is in fact the case, you will lose threat to them constantly. Remember that they are the bad warriors. I suggest communication with the healer so that they die repeatedly until rage quit or they change stances.

  12. #12
    Who cares? If you're not tanking 90 content, it doesn't matter.

    You're wasting our time. Wait until 90 content before you ask, then wipe an LFR and be beaten and berated in a way that would have made Mussolini blush. Then reroll out of frustration.

    (Make optimal use of HoR in multi-target situations. Once you hit 32, you'll be able to run with Seal of Insight, and even glyph it with "Battle Healer" to bring some massive healing utility to your groups. It should be smooth, smooth sailing from there on out.)

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer ViridianWRA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarithus View Post
    I know, but it's not a great feeling being called a bad tank by idiots. Especially bad when people leave when I'm doing all I can. (Apart from forgetting HoR) That's only happened a couple of times though, in Scarlet halls and monastery where there are more mobs to deal with.

    People will call you a bad tank more often then they'll say hello. Just ignore them and knuckle through! It'll pick up in the 60s.

    You mean I have room for text now?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarles Malarkey View Post
    (Make optimal use of HoR in multi-target situations. Once you hit 32, you'll be able to run with Seal of Insight, and even glyph it with "Battle Healer" to bring some massive healing utility to your groups. It should be smooth, smooth sailing from there on out.)
    I don't know if glyph of Harsh words until level 40 would be much better than Glyph of Battle healer. After 40 when you get SotR Battle Healer is better, but until then Harsh Words would give you much better output and better thread generation

  15. #15
    Brewmaster Sarithus's Avatar
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    This isn't fun anymore. I feel like I'm missing something crucial.

    - A hunters pet that I'm doing dungeons with continuously pulls aggro upon coming out of stealth. (Apparently he hasn't got the taunt spell on)
    - A Warrior without hierlooms that assured me he isn't taunting sometimes takes aggro.

    This happens on a new pack where I:

    Righteous Fury on
    Open with AS
    Proceed to use HoR
    Then Holy wrath
    repeat

    Not sure what more I can do.
    My Warrior
    Arms Proving Grounds Guide
    When you walk among the Black Forest...you will see.

  16. #16
    I don't know about the warrior but I wouldn't immediately trust a low level hunter who says he doesn't have taunt on. He probably doesn't know what it is. I think it's called growl to them? And they have to learn to right click the ability.

  17. #17
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froggi View Post
    Taunts do not actually give you any threat on a target that is out of combat, it simply forces that target to attack you for x number of seconds. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's 6 seconds that it forces the target to attack you. If you taunt a target that is attacking someone else, it gives you threat equal to their current threat value while still forcing it to attack you for x seconds. Taunt has no effect if the target is in combat and attacking you.
    Taunt does 3 things:

    1) Sets your threat equal to the highest threat on the mob's table (if it's not you already)
    2) Immediately changes the mob's target to you
    3) Puts a 3 second, with DR, debuff on the target that makes it only attack you and ignore everyone else (even if rooted, etc.)

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Froggi View Post
    I do not know the theorycrafting behind how much more powerful initial threat is but I know that it is much harder to get threat on a target that someone else hit first than to keep it on a target that you hit first.
    Given an enemy with typical threat mechanics, if you are in or around melee range and pass 110% of that enemy's current target's threat, you'll pull aggro. If you are at range, you'll pull at 130% or more. A true taunt, as previously stated, will immediately grab aggro despite only equalizing threat with the highest aggro on the target.

    ---

    @OP:
    If your Avenger's Shield is on cooldown, and you're chain pulling (which is the case in most any dungeon group) just pull with Judgement (or, ya know, you can always just charge in and smack something with HoR). If you're approaching a spread-out group with more than one caster in it, charge toward one caster, Avenger's Shield another (as of 5.0, AS only silences the primary target, not all three of the enemies that it hits) and, if necessary, tag any melee stragglers with Judgement, then proceed with your good ol' AoE tanking rotation.

  19. #19
    A few extra pointers:

    Get an add-on that announces taunts. I use simple taunt announce. When it shows that pet spamming growl, you know the hunter is a liar or an imbecile.

    Warriors or whoever will sometimes pull aggro. That's fine. Most times they can handle the damage. Marking a skull helps focus fire - they should not pull aggro on what you are hitting, as you get a 5x threat multiplier to your damage. Otherwise, just taunt and start hitting their target. The taunt gives you their threat as a base so you should be able to keep a lead.

    Are you using the addons threatplates + tidyplates? I find them incredibly good for 5 mans. They make it very clear which adds you don;t have threat on (their nameplates are enlarged).

    I would pull with judgement, not avenger shield. It gives you holy power (yeah, not a big deal if you don't have shotr yet, but a good habit). And the mobs will start to bunch up so your AS is more likely to bounce. Try to AS an "outer" mob eg A-X-X or X-X-A not X-A-X, as in the latter case, the shield is likely only to bounce once.

    You may already be doing this, but generally I would be ultra-aggressive - run ahead into the mobs, perhaps even leaving the last one in a pack trailing, as just being there first gives you proximity aggro and if the mobs hit you, you'll start to get vengeance which is what turns post-MoP tank damage from being rather pitiful solo into equalling that of the dps in raids. Back in they day, BC heroics era, I used to use a static pulling style - marking targets, CCing, firing off AS, letting them come to me etc (I think this was because you needed to pull the free mobs away from the CCd ones and patrols). But nowadays, paladins pull ike warriors - charging into the pack, metaphorically at least.

    Do set focus on your healer though and keep an eye on their proximity/mana.

  20. #20
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarithus View Post
    This isn't fun anymore. I feel like I'm missing something crucial.

    - A hunters pet that I'm doing dungeons with continuously pulls aggro upon coming out of stealth. (Apparently he hasn't got the taunt spell on)
    - A Warrior without hierlooms that assured me he isn't taunting sometimes takes aggro.

    This happens on a new pack where I:

    Righteous Fury on
    Open with AS
    Proceed to use HoR
    Then Holy wrath
    repeat

    Not sure what more I can do.
    Ok first of all, if the hunter pet ability "growl" was turned off every dps in the party would pull aggro from that pet, so he obviously doesn't know what it is he needs to turn off. You will experience this a lot with warlocks and their felguard/wrathguard it's called intimidating presence or something so be prepared for it.

    I will put my money on the warrior was in defensive stance, you can still be in defensive stance having increased aggro when your in a dps spec, like a retribution paladin with righteous fury on which is also something you should keep an eye out for. General idea is to have a dps meter running, unless the dps is doing about 10 times more dps then you they won't pull aggro unless they have a threat boosting ability active they shouldn't have.

    Just like you miss-read how Hotr worked so have a lot of other people when rolling a new alt, so knowing why/to what you are losing aggro is part of the early tanking in low levels and will save you a lot of "tank is bad" remarks when it's the dps that made the mistake.

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