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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Arayaa View Post
    The whole premise of atonement healing was that you sacrificed healing to do damage. The problem is that atonement currently doesn't work that way, it is a core part of disc healing. Something has to change - it is just unfair to the other healers as it is. Doing 40-50k DPS in a 10m raid is huge.
    The problem with this are the low HpS requirements of current Encounters. Because of those we were able to push other healers out of the meters with the absorb Portion of our healing, to make others appear better instead of raising the damage output of the encounters they decided to nerf our normal healing leaving it just as low as atonement and changing the choice from throughput or lower thoughput and some damage to lower throughput or lower throughput and some damage, the cluncy PoH meachanic just compounds that even more. The whole thing will fall flat on ist face as soon as there is an encounter with continous high HpS requirements, which disc can't match currently.

    PS.: Could we please cut back a bit on the whining from uninformed holy priests?
    Also, nobodysbaby, look up what double dipping actually means. Atonement double dips on Twist of Fate, on nothing else (unless you count mastery, which is designed to to make all crits form all healing effects of disc priests 'double dip' on its two effects, the second of which is balanced around that).
    Absolute mana return means nothing on its own if you compare different specs btw..
    Last edited by Noradin; 2013-04-09 at 11:08 AM.

  2. #182
    High Overlord Vilbu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    The whole thing will fall flat on ist face as soon as there is an encounter with continous high HpS requirements, which disc can't match currently.
    That's correct, when there is going to be an encounter with continuous and high raid-wide damage going on disc is pretty much screwed, and redesigning the crit-heal mechanic didn't really help. I don't mind so much because disc will manage those situations too, just that our actual healing power outside of absorbs is already pretty limited.

    All in all disc is in a really good and goofy place right now, and I don't think this nerf will change anything that much.
    Last edited by Vilbu; 2013-04-09 at 11:56 AM.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    The problem with this are the low HpS requirements of current Encounters. Because of those we were able to push other healers out of the meters with the absorb Portion of our healing, to make others appear better instead of raising the damage output of the encounters they decided to nerf our normal healing leaving it just as low as atonement and changing the choice from throughput or lower thoughput and some damage to lower throughput or lower throughput and some damage, the cluncy PoH meachanic just compounds that even more. The whole thing will fall flat on ist face as soon as there is an encounter with continous high HpS requirements, which disc can't match currently.

    PS.: Could we please cut back a bit on the whining from uninformed holy priests?
    Also, nobodysbaby, look up what double dipping actually means. Atonement double dips on Twist of Fate, on nothing else (unless you count mastery, which is designed to to make all crits form all healing effects of disc priests 'double dip' on its two effects, the second of which is balanced around that).
    Absolute mana return means nothing on its own if you compare different specs btw..
    You can match healing output just fine, idk why you keep bringing that up as some sort of justifying. You do your part, others do theirs, the actual healing doesn't look the same but in the end Disc doesn't have low healing (absorbs) at all considering "dps should cost healing" wich seems completly forgotten here aswell!

    Whining uninformed Priest? Erhm... Yeah, right.

    Mana return differs a lot (and is unbalanced) if you compare Holy and Disc, and comparing spellcost it's clear Disc has got an advantage, especially if you count in Disc also have PI and Inner Focus. Or are you saying I am uninformed here to?

    Our Disc already start to go for output stats and trinkets while I still struggle on many fights. It's kind of not a secret Holy's been lacking compared to Disc for ages.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-09 at 12:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilbu View Post
    That's correct, when there is going to be an encounter with continuous and high raid-wide damage going on disc is pretty much screwed, and redesigning the crit-heal mechanic didn't really help. I don't mind so much because disc will manage those situations too, just that our actual healing power outside of absorbs is already pretty limited.
    I don't see Disc being bad in any high dmg fight.

    Have you tried to heal a fight with actual healing spells (outside of stacking Eva for AA and using HF/Solace/Penance on CD) and ofc SS? I can't imagine it would be so incredibly bad since the Mastery change, and if it really is that horrible, then buff it. Actually, I need to try this in some LFR with baddies today, that can actually be quite challanging to heal.

    Besides, doing damage should cost as GC say. Utility should cost in terms of output or we will have a forever unbalance.

  4. #184
    I'm not trying to justify anything, why would I? I did nothing wrong. I'm pointing out problems.
    About the 'forgotten damage should cost healing bit', please reread the post you were quoting unless you want to say disc priests should be forced to respec when not wanting to sacrifice healing for damage?
    PI is available to both holy and disc you can't name it as an advantage for on of them over the other. So yes, you just implied you are uninformed by posting that question right after stating an obvioulsy incorrect fact.
    That change to mastery was actually more a change to crit and not so much to mastery and it took away quite a bit, especially from IF, which basically lost one third of its (healing) value.
    The problem with our normal healing is that our absorbs push the contributions of others into the overheal category on the meters making them appear to have high overheal and us very low, both is bad, since overheal means there is a margin of error. Thats just the same kind of common sense that should tell you planning to end a fight with zero mana before it even begins as a healer is bad as it makes every unforseen complication break that strategy and WoW is a RPG not Chess game, there is chance involved here.

  5. #185
    Yeah, because Holy could just skip DI and take PI, that would make sense. I think you very well can understand my points instead of looking for technical "errors" in my posts.

  6. #186
    We aren't attonment healing because there is low damage, we are attonment healing because it is stronger than our actual heals. The 20 percent nerf will hurt both attonment and aegis because the current build is crit build. But even so disc is still going to remain a top healer. We might lose 3-5 percent of our overall healing at most. Just be smart and PoH when 3-4 targets are damaged, use inner focus often, use prayer of mending, shield a target taking critical damage, spirit shell/power infusion when required, cascade, barrier. The kit is still wide guys, and attonment will still be better than your healing kit after this. The playstyle won't change, the problem is that we are doing 40k damage AND topping heals the majority of the time. At most this patch will put us even with the other top healers, maybe a percent below. But we bring a ton of damage mitigation the other classes don't.

  7. #187
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Nevermind.
    Last edited by Tehterokkar; 2013-04-09 at 06:58 PM.

  8. #188
    I'm well aware that the holy version of DI is quite good, I wish disc priest had access to it instead of their current version which in my eyes has only potential to further the problem of stacking to much absorbs on a target - that needed to get nerfed before.

    Edit: Ah, seems like they think so, too, they just (indirectly) nerfed it on the PTR xD
    Last edited by Noradin; 2013-04-09 at 08:59 PM.

  9. #189
    Brewmaster chaosjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuma8244 View Post
    Inc illogical and self-contradictory PWS nerf, you heard it here first.
    it came.... and a big one of that. so basicly im getting my arse handed to me by our holy pala in the team and now im getting nerfed even more while they are still op.

    Yep logical.

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  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by chaosjones View Post
    it came.... and a big one of that. so basicly im getting my arse handed to me by our holy pala in the team and now im getting nerfed even more while they are still op.

    Yep logical.
    The cruel irony of my fully sarcastic comment coming to fruition is not lost on me. I had forgotten I even said that :/

  11. #191
    A lot of the QQ folks are upset because they may not be #1 in healing for every fight. Common ppl, Disc Smite spam needed a nerf. You can STILL use it as a "Heal" replacement. And you can STILL do substantial DPS. So what is the problem? Are you really that upset that you might have to reduce your dps in order to do the same amount of healing?

  12. #192
    Im glad there nerfing this I think disc priest have to much of a big advantage over other healers in a raid group so thank blizz for this. No class should be able to spam one button and do amazing hps. I mean you guys already got spirit shell which is op enogh.

  13. #193
    Brewmaster chaosjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tricksterjim View Post
    A lot of the QQ folks are upset because they may not be #1 in healing for every fight. Common ppl, Disc Smite spam needed a nerf. You can STILL use it as a "Heal" replacement. And you can STILL do substantial DPS. So what is the problem? Are you really that upset that you might have to reduce your dps in order to do the same amount of healing?
    Apparently its guys like you who don't know about the class.

    First off i think we deserve the nerf i would just have preferred it to be by lowering the max heal possible with atonement to say like 15% of a priest health. at least it would not be broken on Horridon and similar fights.

    Second if you smite spam you are doing it wrong. Only fight where that is valid is Horridon in my opinion.
    As a Disc priest you will do much better healing if you weave in other things. keeping 5 stacks for AA purpose using penance on CD. shields etc. only time you should be smite spamming is when the raid is taking minimal to no damage. and at that point big whoopie doo you are doing 10k hps tops.

    An excellent example is megaera on the first 2 heads maybe 3rd if the other healer(s) is good enough.

    3rd. If you are topping the healing meters as disc with smite spamming your other healers suck really badly. More so if you have a paladin in the group. Granted Restoration Shamans is in a bad spot atm but they should easily go past a priest that has 50% atonement healing 35% divine aegis and 15% everything else.

    To take an example.
    Our paladin denounce spam when he is bored and our druid uses the heart of something that makes him pretty insane dps with wrath.
    Also these number are not excatly what they were but aproximately from what i remember. i remember this stuff cause i always try to beat our paladin and fails
    Granted im not very far progressed we are a casual raiding team that raids 4-8 hours per week tops

    Jin'Rokh 40% damage buff 60% healing taken buff
    Disc (me) : 48k HPS | 78k DPS
    Paladin : 72k HPS | 8k DPS
    Druid : 56k HPS | 30k DPS

    Horridon (i'm dps'ing adds not boss cause its more fun)
    Disc : 40k HPS | 62k DPS
    Paladin : 65k HPS | 3k DPS
    Druid : 41k HPS | 5k DPS (no clue why he is low here)

    Council of Elders (I go shadow here)
    Paladin : 95k HPS | 1,6k DPS
    Druid : 76K HPS | 8K DPS

    Tortos (Don't have time to dps here can't stand still)
    Disc : 82k HPS | 12K DPS
    Paladin : 94K HPS | 2K DPS
    Druid : 72k HPS | 0 DPS

    Megaera (Smite spamming for the first 2 heads so does the druid)
    Disc : 54k HPS | 18k DPS
    Paladin : 84k HPS | 2k DPS
    Druid : 42k HPS | 13k DPS

    Just because we can our tanks
    Druid : 38K HPS
    DK : 48k HPS

    Ji-kun no clue im on nest duty and im pure dps healing here to help get birds down fast

    Durumu yet to get a kill

    Last note i only smite spam on horridon first 2 heads on megaera and ji-kun rest of the fights i barely touch smite other than getting AA
    Last edited by chaosjones; 2013-04-10 at 03:37 AM.

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  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    You can match healing output just fine, idk why you keep bringing that up as some sort of justifying. You do your part, others do theirs, the actual healing doesn't look the same but in the end Disc doesn't have low healing (absorbs) at all considering "dps should cost healing" wich seems completly forgotten here aswell!
    Atonement absolutely trades healing for damage... it does maybe 80-90k hps tops, which is very low compared to what any real healer can do (120k+, at least). The thing is, there are hardly any fights this tier where you actually need to do more than 80k hps, so you're generally perfectly fine just spamming atonement. But saying that atonement has the same output as a normal healer is flat out wrong.

    It would make much more sense to nerf the mana costs on smite/penance than the throughput... the only really "op" part about atonement is that it's permanently spammable because it costs so little mana.

  15. #195
    I don't like this change because it doesn't really solve the actual issues.

    I did some quick math on a few of our recent WoL reports and what I found is that my healing won't really go down much if I keep the same playstyle. Not even enough to be to be 2nd on the healing chart most of the time. I was worried a little at first because I feel like I rely on Atonement quite a bit, it's usually between 14-20% of my healing done, but after having done the math, it's really not significant at all. My playstyle won't change much and I doubt many others' will.

    If blizzard's motivation for this change is for healer DPS to be tradeoff for healing, then they are going about this the wrong way. Atonement is a cheap smart heal that you can mindlessly spam and it chooses the best target every time, this won't change. HoTs will still be sniped and crappy LFR healers will still use nothing else but Atonement. The whole mechanic needs a redesign.

  16. #196
    High Overlord Vilbu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    I don't see Disc being bad in any high dmg fight.

    Have you tried to heal a fight with actual healing spells (outside of stacking Eva for AA and using HF/Solace/Penance on CD) and ofc SS? I can't imagine it would be so incredibly bad since the Mastery change, and if it really is that horrible, then buff it.
    The way I used word "screwed" might have scared you (gotta choose my words more carefully from now on). Though if you would read till the end I also added that disc will manage those situations too.

    I don't mean that disc should be able to match the topping power of holy or other healers, but that sometimes* even topping off a single player in the raid feels pain in the *** without the grace stacks is something that makes me miss the good-old crits.

    When it comes to the performance though, it is very good and I don't think it will change after this nerf.

  17. #197
    Atonement at 80% is still going to be leaps and bounds ahead of Eminence. Seriously, give me AA, Solace, and Atonement and you can have Xuen, Jade Serpent Statue, TP, Jab, SCK, BoK and Eminence. Deal?!

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuga View Post
    It would make much more sense to nerf the mana costs on smite/penance than the throughput... the only really "op" part about atonement is that it's permanently spammable because it costs so little mana.
    It always makes me wonder, like, why shouldn't warriors run out of rage in the middle of a fight and have to drink a rage potion or ask for hymn of rage?

    Or rogues, quaff a combo potion or else be stuck with autoattack until combat ends.

    This thing where it seems like people want healers to be both short of mana and have a complicated rotation, but blame them whenever a group wipes, what exactly is that?

  19. #199
    Not all healers know that the overheal counts on world of logs, some healers cheese it, like I do. You really can't look at that fight AT ALL.
    It doesn't matter that not everyone knows or that healers cheese it. This is a direct live demonstration of the kind of HPS that you can push out when overheal is not a factor. It is the best fight to use when you want to see what the maximum output potential of each class is. Disc is extremely reliant on low overheal low HPS heals/absorbs, so when a fight has high overheal they don't lose as much as monks or holy priests. High HPS --> disc fails, low HPS ---> disc wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isheria View Post
    Please enlighten us, which other healing spec has a spammable smart heal that costs virtually no mana?
    Shamans are probably the only one with chain heal but chain heal actually costs mana and also doesn't have 40y on jumps which is exactly why the chaining glyph that increases jump range has a cd, every other smart heal in the game has a cd associated with it to prevent abuse like this.
    Penance and Solace/Holy fire has a CD. Smite may have no cooldown but it also only targets one person and it's fairly low HPS. I don't think that has anything to do with the problems associated with atonement

    The problem with atonement is that it gets too good with high intellect. Once you get to 40k+ spellpower, atonement starts to eclipse all other spells, for random raid damage, which is what you have a good chunk of the time on many encounters. That means you don't trade anything for DPSing. It is the best mode of healing for the majority of the fight anyway.

    Holy priests have PoM with divine insight.

    You guys talk about atonement as if we did that and nothing else. As if we were not putting a lot of shields, using PoM, Barrier, SS, and Pain Suppression, controling Rapture and all the things that makes disc so complex. And it's funny to hear a priest to say "Yey, we need a nerf just because I hate this spell!". It's so selfish!
    Disc was complex with bubble spam in 5.1. In 5.2 the complexity has been removed. There are no more branching decisions, no more keeping up short term buffs and because atonement is so good with high intellect it is the preferred method of healing between PWS and SS. Atonement is supposed to be a filler, not a huge chunk of our healing. Remove divine aegis which procs for all intents and purposes equally from all heals and you will see that atonement is an extremely large chunk of our normal healing.


    Nerfing the healing done from atonement means that Spirit Shell, Prayer of Healing, Prayer of Mending, Power Word: Shield, et al are all untouched. It means when you push archangel because you need to heal harder, that you still can and in doing so will be unphased completely, but your ability to stand at max range and spam a basic dps rotation with little regard to actual healing patterns is no longer supported.
    As pointed out, Atonement at one point in time replaced Heal. That's it. Not Flash Heal, not Greater Heal. Just Heal. At this point, with it being a top heal on most fights, it's pushed a few too many boundaries. Sure you could say it's "three spells", but given that the other spells are rotationally cast on cooldown and that all three spells are all smart heals using the exact same mechanic, I would like to call butts on that.
    Atonement nerf: Needed. Doesn't affect Discipline's PvP offensive burst, or its burst healing, cooldown usage, or actual utility when using "real" healing spells. If you want to spam dps spells on a boss all day long, and nothing else, roll a mage?
    Odd series of statements. PvP damage for disc is pretty lame. Healers don't stack pvp power. Disc hits like a limp noodle these days on players.

    Nerfing damage is not a good idea, as it takes away one of the main reasons for using atonement according to the blizzard design: To do offspec DPS.

    I think you don't quite see the problem here: Penance and holy fire have priority over flash and gheal unless you are using inner focus no matter what. They will still do so even after the nerf. PoH, spirit shell, pws, cascade and even renew in a few rare cases are higher priority than smite now and that will not change after the nerf. Flash heal is too expensive without the T142set and gheal is too slow AND too expensive compared to atonement. The nerf does not change the priorities much. It just reduces the amount of healing you will get from smiting. It just prevents smite from eventually becoming so good that atonement starts to eclipse more spells. It hits for 60k non crit with full evangelism and the glyph at 40k spellpower. With the same spellpower flash heal heals for 85k or so. It is not unreasonable to see 50k spellpower with hc ToT gear, which would make smite heal for nearly the same as flash heal, making it completely ridiculous.

    We already overuse atonement and it is a stupid brainless way to heal. The nerf will pretty much reset the relationship between atonement and all other heals at ~25k spellpower or so with hc ToT gear.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Tricksterjim View Post
    Are you really that upset that you might have to reduce your dps in order to do the same amount of healing?
    We are upset that we can't do that anymore.

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