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  1. #401
    The Patient Tenaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    The problem is that absorbs are too strong and can't stay that way, so if the nerf comes and blizzard handles it as usual disc wont have enough absorbs nor direct healing. If the healing other than absorb was stronger, then there could be (more) encounters working around absorbs. Look at the other side of the medal for once.

    look up what 'doubledip' actually means, the only thing currently double dipping for disc in the sense of the word is twist of fate.
    I this wasnt clear by now, I play a disc priest as my main. I'm quite aware of how our absorbs work, how strong they are, and how ridiculous atonement is at its present state.

    You argue that if absorbs get nerfed we need something to compensat that berf. But as it stands, I havent seen a blue post on SS being nerfed, as well as I havent seen a post on PWs being nerfed. These too are very strong, and as long as they stay this strong, we most certainly shouldnt get buffed through more throughput.

    I am so sorry if my use of the word doubledipping wasnt politically correct enough, my sincere apologies. For your convenience I shall rephrace this as follows: in my opinion disc should not be entitled to very strong absorbs (which will always override straight heals) as well as decent dps utility as well as strong straight healing abilitis, which in essence makes other healing classes seem pointless.

    If you cant see where Im coming from with this opinion so be it, we can agree to disagree. But it's slightly silly to say we need more straight heals to offset for absorb nerfs, when ther are, afaik, no planned SS nor shield nerfs in the near future. Instead we have offensive spells that deal a significant amount of dmg, whilst smarthealing AND generating shields for preventing further dmg, effectively double-sniping heals.

    Id love to hear which bosses you find yourself having significant issues with healing throughput, where you feel disc is so weak we need to get stronger spells to make us viable? This is in no way meant in an hostile tone, but in a curious manner, as Ive only cleared half of TOT n 25 heroic, and would like to prepare myeself in case further bosses cause issues for discs, as Ive yet to run into a situation where Ive thought "crap, my raid would be so much better off if they used another class over me here". As in the end, we are a desired class, thus I dont think we need to be stronger if you compare to druids and shamans for instance.
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  2. #402
    I would have agreed with you about DA and atonement before the crit heal change, in fact, I think it would have been better to take DA away from atonement and leave the crit around - while not reducing the value of crit and upsetting the balance between stats as much, it would slow down the increase in effectiveness with damage multipliers around, as those big chunks of healing would result in more overheal instead of big shields.

    My comment about the use of 'double dipping' was motivated by the belief that unprecise wording will hurt all sides of a discussion by distracting from the real points that need to be talked about.
    I can follow your point about 'double-sniping' heals, even if I wouldn't choose that wording. Sniping is a problem. Curiously it would be our problem the other way around were we to rely only on our very slow direct heals, which was why PoH had such high hps in the past - to offset overheal caused by sniping - which then became a problem with newer encounters in turn.

    I am of the belief that absorbs will need and get a change similar to the one to block value in the near future and would pefer for it to happen without repeatedly nerfing the spec to the ground and overbuffing it again, as has happened the last few times. It think atonement is a better idea than some versions we had in the past and it has potential, but current changes while not totally into the wrong direction take place at the wrong points. Instead of adding to the complexity of atonement and introducing more (potential) interaction with direct healing and targeting it is instead made more simple without really touching the underlying problems.

    I don't want to have disc made stonger, I think its strength need to be shiftet a bit, otherwise they will get too strong and break encounters followed then by the spec in future.
    Last edited by Noradin; 2013-05-11 at 01:15 PM.

  3. #403
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    most of that post I can agree with
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  4. #404
    hmmm i do agree attonement healing shouldnt really proc DA when it crits......(but still crit heals)

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    hmmm i do agree attonement healing shouldnt really proc DA when it crits......(but still crit heals)
    my problem with ideas like this is it introduces yet more caveats to a spec already riddled with them. "Your mastery buffs absorbs. O except for SS." "Atonement heals for 90% of damage done, that is unless it heals you, in which case it heals for 50%". "SS doesn't crit, but figures in your crit rating in determining the absorb". "Penance hits for different amounts used offensively to attack as opposed to defensively to heal". Etc. Not saying that these things aren't necessary for balance concerns (or that they haven't always been present in at least some form), but it makes for an incredibly messy/sloppy spec in terms of mechanics.

  6. #406
    Stood in the Fire PhillieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    I don't see 70-80k both possible without either big damage buffs or heroic thunderforged 4t14, or maybe your 'bosses' are actually mobs that die in 6s?

    Also, Phillie, I normally don't look at the armory to agrue against people, but you didn't just claim that those dps were possible but to have reached them yourself, so while you might have another character that I don't know about I just looked up the one in your signature to see how you are geared and which encounters you could refer to, you might after all be quite ahead of me in the content.
    While you are currently wearing pvp-equip, it states your maximum item level to be 516, lists no heroic encounters that character has beaten.
    Because of that I'm inclined to disblieve your claim. Do you have any logs?

    Otherwise maybe because you like holy better (as you stated yourself) you are exaggerating the problem hoping to provoke a stronger nerf to disc so your raid lets you switch back to holy, which should be ok anyway, unless your damage dealers have much worse gear than you have and/or are playing horribly your dps should not be needed to beat the bosses you are attemting right now. If they are bad, maybe the more potential in reactive healing holy offers would be better anyway.

    I for one don't even reach that hps on horridon lfr where I'm doing nothing but dps as disc and my gear is good enough to kill him on 10hc together with one other healer.
    (Since I am honest I will admit to use quite a bit of atonement on that fight due to range issues, I hate those terrors he spawns.)
    No I do not run any logs. Not really sure why you would have trouble believing I can reach 50k DPS in 516 gear? I'm still away on holiday so I'm still not in in my PvE gear. On most i go full attonement, and reforge my spirit down to 8-9k in favor of crit and haste and more or loss do a 95% DPS attonement rotation, since most can be 2 healed. I'm just there as a 0.5 dps on if things go pear-shaped. Though i'm sure someone in similar gear can show you relevant logs of 50k+ DPS. If you can't reach that levels of Dps, I am guessing you are most likely reforged wrong or doing something wonky in your rotation. As for the HPS ok fine- I do toss out the occasional shield and pop halo/casc on meta proc usually but nothing really appart from that.

    This has nothing nothing to do with my raid group or your related analysis so you can shelf that. I want to play disc for an encounter I play disc if I want to go holy I go holy. My raid group will never argue that. This has to do with me not wanting to gimp our progress, since we only raid once a week betweem 19:30 - 23:30 every second we can shave off an encounter is worth it since we are still gearing some people up and therefor not saving. We have several former world top 10 guild members in our group please do not confuse frequence with skill.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuma8244 View Post
    my problem with ideas like this is it introduces yet more caveats to a spec already riddled with them. "Your mastery buffs absorbs. O except for SS." "Atonement heals for 90% of damage done, that is unless it heals you, in which case it heals for 50%". "SS doesn't crit, but figures in your crit rating in determining the absorb". "Penance hits for different amounts used offensively to attack as opposed to defensively to heal". Etc. Not saying that these things aren't necessary for balance concerns (or that they haven't always been present in at least some form), but it makes for an incredibly messy/sloppy spec in terms of mechanics.
    I lol'd so hard at this. Most games are designed with these kinds of stuff though so I don't think its sloppy spec mechanics.


    And to all those people saying disc has low healing output I don't get where that comes from. With archangel up (18 sec duration with 30 sec cd so it is up a lot) we are basically a holy priest with absorbs instead of hots and we have spirit shell. Disc has no problems healing anything.

    Btw I actually think after 5.3 people will QQ about disc more than they do now ; because the nerfs to discs are very minor while the nerfs to holy pallies are major and they are our biggest competition.
    Last edited by Rorschachs; 2013-05-12 at 10:25 AM.

  8. #408
    Maybe an "okay" solution for absorbs is to have them absorb up to a maximum of 80% of incoming damage, but have their duration increased by 20% to balance the nerf. I don't know, I really like absorbs on my disc priest, I don't really play the Atonement spam game too much anymore, now that I have the meta and Horridon's trinket, my healing is usually PW:S first, Spirit Shell second and Divine Aegis third. But if absorbs don't get changed in anyway, I wouldn't be totally upset if they nerfed out raw healing even more. I would like having obvious strengths and weaknesses, all healers having them, so guilds don't stack too many of one kind. If we can predict the damage disc wins, if the damage is constant and hard hitting, disc falls behind (theoretically).

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by PhillieB View Post
    Not really sure why you would have trouble believing I can reach 50k DPS in 516 gear?
    I believe I spoke about (and you did quote it correctly) about 70k-80k hps and 70k-80k dps at the same time. 50k dps is quite a bit less than that and should be not unachievable gearing for dps which you are free to do as unlike other disc priests you are not playing an active healer from what you say. Thus I don't really care about logs for that, now the numbers we originally spoke about at the other hand...
    You are correct in your assumption that I did not gear, gem, and reforge for (atonement) dps, as my usual role is being one of those two dedicated healers, just without the backup of a damage dealer with passive and emergency heals.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    I lol'd so hard at this. Most games are designed with these kinds of stuff though so I don't think its sloppy spec mechanics.
    If you read my post I acknowledge these things are sometimes necessary. But the fact that disc is riddled with them seems indicative to me that blizz isn't at all sure what it's doing with the spec.

  11. #411
    Grunt VirtueTO's Avatar
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    I think it would've been a good move to up the mana costs. With these changes Atonement is going to be just as effective and spammable as it is now.

  12. #412
    As a disc priest, I agree that some atonement nerf's are definitely needed... I hate using this term but it is "OP"..with just a hit of a button we get to heal up any injured player before any other player even has a chance to mentally react. It is great for us, but it just makes it too easy. Even with this nerf, like most people mentioned.. we will still be spamming it regardless because 80% will only knock it down slightly so nothing to really worry about yet.

  13. #413
    Grunt VirtueTO's Avatar
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    It's more effective to Atonement spam for the better part of most heroic encounters than it is to actually heal. Somewhat diminishes your role as a healer imo.
    Last edited by VirtueTO; 2013-05-16 at 11:50 PM.

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  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by VirtueTO View Post
    It's more effective to Atonement spam for the better part of most heroic encounters than it is to actually heal. Somewhat diminishes your role as a healer imo.
    Where as Holy is just PoH spam (CoH and 90-talent filler), fishing for PoM procs, amirite? Amirite?

    What's understated, and rarely ever said (because...why?)...EVERY class is "easy to heal with" and has been "dumbed down".

    Top logs for a Paladin? Mastery is top healing.

    Top logs for a Shaman? Healing Rain.

    Top logs for a Mistweaver? Uplift/Renewing Mist.

    Top logs for a Druid? Rejuvenation.

    NONE of these require much foresight into raid damage taken, yet ALL account for anywhere between 20-50% of one's total healing.

    Face it, triage healing is dead (for the time being).

  15. #415
    Grunt VirtueTO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    Where as Holy is just PoH spam (CoH and 90-talent filler), fishing for PoM procs, amirite? Amirite?

    What's understated, and rarely ever said (because...why?)...EVERY class is "easy to heal with" and has been "dumbed down".

    Top logs for a Paladin? Mastery is top healing.

    Top logs for a Shaman? Healing Rain.

    Top logs for a Mistweaver? Uplift/Renewing Mist.

    Top logs for a Druid? Rejuvenation.

    NONE of these require much foresight into raid damage taken, yet ALL account for anywhere between 20-50% of one's total healing.

    Face it, triage healing is dead (for the time being).
    Your argument is a different discussion all together. Atonement being more effective than other healing spells in our toolkit on many encounters is problematic. Should MW Monk DPS outshine ReM/Uplift?

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  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by VirtueTO View Post
    Your argument is a different discussion all together. Atonement being more effective than other healing spells in our toolkit on many encounters is problematic. Should MW Monk DPS outshine ReM/Uplift?
    There's two separate arguments: 1) Atonement is boring/mindless/easy 2) Atonement is OP because it's DPS and healing.

    I addressed 1), because...

    For 2), let's say we...brought down the damage of Atonement to 10% of normal, but increased the healing to compensate and keep roughly the same as live. Does that really appease anyone?

    And so, back to my previous post.

    They're obviously not going to nerf the damage (at least not drastically like that) because...lolDisccan'tdodailiesnow. And they're not going to nerf Atonement into oblivion because they like the theme behind it. And they sure as hell aren't going to re-haul the spec this late into the expansion (crit change = re-haul? it still feels...weird) because *oops Blizzard made a boo-boo*. So all of these things are true, but what ALSO remains true is:

    Other classes use boring spells that make up the bulk of their healing, too. It's...a...dead...horse.
    Last edited by Spazzeh; 2013-05-17 at 05:25 AM.

  17. #417
    Didn't they make smart heals smarter in 5.3? I wonder if that change is good enough to compensate for the %10 nerf to atonement and penance.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by VirtueTO View Post
    Your argument is a different discussion all together. Atonement being more effective than other healing spells in our toolkit on many encounters is problematic. Should MW Monk DPS outshine ReM/Uplift?
    Same time, if mistweavers do have the option of ReM/Uplift, does disc have such? If they didnt have atonement, what else would they have to take its place? I only play a monk as an alt, and what I can say is that monk dps feels more adaptable than disc one, having a good single target tool, a good cleave tool and a tool for aoe, whereas disc only has single target tools. Monk dps is also more mana expensive than disc one, as for hps, it prolly translates into what smite healing would be for priests (as in using only smite, which is fairly poor as an hps tool, the bulk of atonement comes from penance).

    I think its wrong to compare tools between classes that appear to be similar: considering all classes now have slightly different forms of things that basically do the same things, having their output similar aswell would lead to even less class flavor. It's simplistic to compare mw dps to hps output to disc hps to dps output, just because both of them do dps. Why roll one or the other if they both do the same thing? Just to be ranged or melee? I guess that could work as an argument, not sure how strong though.

    In my eyes, the bulk of atonement, and general disc healing comes from penance. Penance is an iconic spell to disc, its their signature, and its only right for it to be strong. Technically atonement is a signature feat for disc. Totems are the signature spells of a shaman, and therefor most of their healing comes from those. Circle of healing is a signature spell for holy. Rejuvenation is a signature spell for druid. And I think that ReM/Uplift are signature spells for monk, and the devs considered them better for the role than the dps part.

    So, from this pov, it makes no sense to compare atonement to fistweaving and Heal or other single target spells that other classes have. Given the current importance people give to meters, its easy to gloss over what is important in a healing meter really: when do you want your best healing, is it "oh, I dunno, generally", or is it "on those fecking rampages that bring my raid to 10% hp". Atonement's biggest advantage to other smart spells is the fact that it has no cd, which makes it a constant trickle, harvesting bits and bobs. However, atonement wont keep your raid up on critical aoe. It might save an ass or two, by being smart and all, but overall, its output isnt that impressive unless you gear for it and become unable to be an actual healer (see some poster above that is running with strictly the spirit needed for atonement and would go oom if she spread few shields).

    Sure, after comparing it with other class signature spells it might still turn up more powerful than them - but at least that is a better point to start wondering where it should be rather than comparing it with Heal and the sorts, which are spells the respective specs barely use, if ever.

  19. #419
    Yes, I would say a big yes to the question "If Disc can actually heal properly without using Atonment (more than just for AA ofc)", I just did that somewhat. Their capability to heal is about as strong as spamming Attonment I would say. It's certainly not "low" compared to other classes!

    I have an example from yday, maybe not the best of all since I could have used PoM and BH/other direct heals more for example, but I am not a 100% good Discplayer:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5...=10809&e=11187

    My fellow Disc in this fight (hc Animus) didn't use a single SS for example, pretty much only spamming Atonment and occasional PWS & Cascade while I was using SS nearly on CD. I could easily switch out some Penance to actually healing someone and some FH/GH, I had plenty of mana. You could argue "would that be wasted overhealing casts?", but that is what every healer out there has to face everytime they cast a heal pretty much. So yes, you can heal fine without Atonment as a healingspell, even as I have Holy gears with most parts reforged/gemmed for crit and from 15,5 to 12,5k spirit. Try it.

    This case also shows something that simply should not be; Attonent spam being just as effective as real healing (SSing). This is why the nerf to Atonment must be done, cause while he was at my healing done, he also did 53k dps, ignoring SS and pretty much anything other than Attonment, Cascade, PoM and Shields.


    This is perhaps a better example of "really using healing spells" (hc IQ) with more constant aoe:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5...=12418&e=12997

    You seem to forget just how freaking strong SS & Aegis is aswell! Aegis proccs from all crits and Inner Focus is strong as fuck to use. Those are very effective and causes not much overhealing usually. Also PWS is a very effective way to "heal".


    Atonment is way, way too mindless and really unfair to the other healers since it is the biggest sniper in game without a question + the extra dps added to it, I cringe at the bare thought it is just as effective as healing "properly". You don't see a problem with that Saph?
    Last edited by nobodysbaby; 2013-05-17 at 08:46 AM.

  20. #420
    Grunt VirtueTO's Avatar
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    I don't really know what you're trying to argue, Saphira. I'm comparing Atonement to MW Monk DPS because they're both similar in design. Would you not find it odd if MW Monks were DPSing for an entire fight and still doing the same amount of effective healing (if not more) than they would be if they were using ReM/Uplift? It becomes a balance problem because you're doing both effective damage AND healing.

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