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  1. #101
    Even if Blizzard nerfed Smite Damage AND Atonement Healing Priests couldn't complain... Disc Priests are simply too strong right now, doing HPS like a Holypaladin while also pushing 40-50k DPS was simply too much.
    Didn't Blizzard say they want DPSing Discpriests/Fistweaving monks doing 50% DPS and 50% Healing while a Holypaladin is 100% Healing and 0% DPS for example?
    Even after the nerf its something like 50% DPS and 90% Healing for Priests.
    This is fiction but the facts are quite different. Disc has no where near the HPS potential that paladins have, or monks for that matter. In real terms when overheal is not a factor monks can push 50% more HPS than disc and paladins can push 20-25% more HPS than disc (check tortos 25hc as an example).

    In this tier blizzard has used encounter design rather than healer mechanics to balance healers out. There are a lot of low to moderate HPS fights that are bursty and have reasonably high overheal, which work fine for disc, but disc is just balanced. Aside from lei shen no other encounters so far give you an overriding reason to take disc.

    High HPS fights or fights with prolonged high damage phases really suck for disc right now. Not many of those around right now. Even so paladins, monks and druids are taking the top spots. And this is just the start of the tier. Lets see what happens as we get further ahead and people gear up more.

    I don't disagree with this nerf. I think its good. I really hate how much I use atonement right now. I am happy with atonement as a filler and for stacking evangelism, but right now its a major part of disc healing no matter what you do. The nerf is certainly needed, but I don't think it will change things much. Look carefully at your parses and you will see that atonement heal is calculated in a pretty weird manner and it seems to be capped. Depending on how blizzard implements this nerf and on intellect inflation with the 522+gear, this is probably not going to be felt much.

    The main reason for the nerf is because atonement scales faster than heals with intellect and with the new gear we can actually reach a point, where atonement gets so good we won't be using anything else.

    in heroic modes, in 10man, discipline priests use a lot more then just atonement. and to be clear - atonement comes from 3 different spells, so actually its 3 kinds of heals. just named the same.

    compare to monks - 40% of healing done by ranking monk is renewing mist - noone cries.
    or to ranking paladins, 30% of healing is their mastery - noone has a problem with it.

    why the whole drama has to be always about disc priests? :/
    im not against a reasonable nerf, but i believe that 20% to whole mechanic is too much and i also believe that the whole war-against-atonement is very extravagated.
    That is an odd argument. Is there any difference to using solace, smite or penance on the boss? It is a DPS sequence, you use the solace/penance on CD and smite in between. You don't control who it heals where it heals or the right situation to use it. You don't even need to look at the healthbars. You just dps the boss, whether its 3 spells or 10^1000000 spells it makes no difference. You are DPSing the boss and its passively healing people. Especially with intellect proliferation atonement as it is right now can become good enough to eclipse every other spell. You already want to use penance and solace effectively on CD, which uses up to 30% of your available heal time.

    Your arguments about monks and paladins is really out there. Pala mastery procs from every single spell they cast and these are spells they actually have to target and made decisions on. It is just a straight % boost to their spells and factored in the class mechanics. Holy light heals for x + mastery. You can't separate the mastery and say this is something separate from holy light. Shaman mastery has a similar high value in terms of healing healing done for shamans, but you don't actually see it, because its rolled into the spells so its not visible on the logs. Paladins have a lot of passive healing, but its not something they actually spend their healing time on. It has zero relevance to how they heal.

    For monks renewing mists is their major source of healing, but that does not mean the monk is using nothing but renewing mists. He is using a lot of other abilities to keep renewing mists up and get them to do a lot of healing. So unlike atonement, which is just straight DPS, renewing mists really is an agglomeration of different spells and abilities.

    Monk healing is relatively simple without question, but comparing renewing mists with atonement is comparing red apples with lead paint. Renewing mists and atonement both produce healing but their similarities end there just like the lead paint and apples have absolutely nothing in common aside from both being red.

    Atonement nerf is good and the current disc playstyle is really lacking.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-04-03 at 12:38 AM.

  2. #102
    High Overlord Aregios's Avatar
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    I like my old out-dated PoH. Do you really want to gain a CoH with casttime and without cd? Right now I have to weight up betweeen healing an entire group of people or try healing individual targets with atonement/PWS/GHeal.
    In 25man a PoH without group limitations will be your bread and butter spell you press every time you've got nothing better to do because there will always be someone how isn't topped off.
    In 10man it will also become your main healing but at least you will be casting a PWS/GHeal from time to time.

    Our MW Monk is pushing out more than 70k dps in low hps phases, leaving me miles behind in dmg done. I'd love to see a buff to atonement >spells< (maybe even +50% dmg) and another nerf to atonement >skill< (maybe down to 50%). Giving me the chance do deal high damage when no healing is needed and switching back to healing (with 5xAA) when damage is coming in. well...have fun balancing it in pvp although

  3. #103
    I could sort of see it coming. Blizzard has been increasing disc DPS bit by bit since the beginning of the expansion. Either DPS had to go down (taking healing with it) or something had to happen to healing.

    20% seems like a pretty big swing with the nerfbat and it might be less by the time the patch goes live. Or something else might change instead.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 10:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Miatela View Post
    The idea that the Atonement nerf got the wrong end is definitely interesting. The complaint would then be that Discipline wouldn't be good for questing and PvP if the DPS were to be reduced. Would this be an acceptable change?
    Well, I hate the "new" version of shadow.

    Chastise works fine for DPS too, might be higher DPS than disc, but I don't play Holy.
    Last edited by HardCoder; 2013-04-03 at 06:09 AM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Iannis View Post
    Well according to official non-mined ptr patch notes, nothing about the nerf is in them =)
    Ghostcrawler has stated on twitter that Atonement is overpowered, in response to someone seeking clarity/confirmation of the aforementioned patch notes... I think we can rest assured that the nerf is going through.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinforce View Post
    Ghostcrawler has stated on twitter that Atonement is overpowered, in response to someone seeking clarity/confirmation of the aforementioned patch notes... I think we can rest assured that the nerf is going through.
    He would be right. Atonement is overpowered. It's, in reality, only a 3-5%~ nerf to throughput.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    He would be right. Atonement is overpowered. It's, in reality, only a 3-5%~ nerf to throughput.
    I think the issue is that our throughput sucks and they're nerfing our best throughput ability. I agree Atonement should be nerfed, but the nerf should be at least partially offset somewhere else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Karragon View Post
    I'd like WoW to be a single player game

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by blargh312 View Post
    I think the issue is that our throughput sucks and they're nerfing our best throughput ability. I agree Atonement should be nerfed, but the nerf should be at least partially offset somewhere else.
    Disc Priest throughput sucks? Are we playing the same game?

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    Disc Priest throughput sucks? Are we playing the same game?
    I guess not because Disc's sustained throughput isn't very good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Karragon View Post
    I'd like WoW to be a single player game

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by blargh312 View Post
    I guess not because Disc's sustained throughput isn't very good.
    Disc's throughput is through the rooftops but?
    old mistweaver probably still better than u

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Disc's throughput is through the rooftops but?
    That explains why Disc gets stomped on high damage fights like H Tortos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Karragon View Post
    I'd like WoW to be a single player game

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by blargh312 View Post
    That explains why Disc gets stomped on high damage fights like H Tortos.
    Uhg comments like this are so nieve it hurts.

    Disc is slightly lower on heroic Torres because f mechanics of the fight not because it doesn't do well on high damage sustained fights.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    Uhg comments like this are so nieve it hurts.

    Disc is slightly lower on heroic Torres because f mechanics of the fight not because it doesn't do well on high damage sustained fights.
    You mean the fact that Atonement doesn't work well? Doesn't that just prove my point that without Atonement Disc throughput is subpar?
    Quote Originally Posted by Karragon View Post
    I'd like WoW to be a single player game

  13. #113
    You realise heroic Tortos categorizes -NOTHING- as overhealing? Hence why MWs are at the top.

  14. #114
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    You realise heroic Tortos categorizes -NOTHING- as overhealing? Hence why MWs are at the top.
    Yeah this. Even though the environment shows healing for "1" when a shield is maxxed, the rest of that healing is actually counted as absorbed and healing done on World of Logs - thus super super high parses on that fight. There really isn't much damage going out on that fight lol.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by blargh312 View Post
    You mean the fact that Atonement doesn't work well? Doesn't that just prove my point that without Atonement Disc throughput is subpar?
    it doesn't work well? What are you talking about..

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  16. #116
    Bloodsail Admiral Manabomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vixene View Post
    Yes, spamming 3 abilities was a thrilling and joyful rotation for dps and healing. Sadly tanking requires a brain which..... mhm

    The nerf isn't that hard, but good luck in your new chosen role.
    Tanking requiring a brain? That's a hilarious sentiment if I've ever heard one. I feel as if you have little knowledge of the entire priest toolkit which includes atonement, halo/cascade, PW:S raptures/movement speed increases, spirit shell+PoH for heavy incoming damage and lastly PoH sans spirit shell for times of raid damage when spirit shell is on cd and perhaps the occasional flash heal spot heal for tanks/random dps taking damage.

    I could go into detail about how ridiculously easy the controversial and "highly skill based" (lol) monk tanking spec can be preformed with one eye, one arm and while watching twitch streams, but I think something like that would honestly blow a simpletons mind.
    Last edited by Manabomb; 2013-04-03 at 10:50 PM.
    Reduce- Iconic class abilities, complexity and meaningful rotations, usefulness of any one class in a raid group
    Reuse- A continent from 3 expansions ago, a story arch from 3 games ago, characters that would otherwise be dead
    Recycle- A beaten to death plot-line, the nostalgia goggles for TBC, bossfight mechanics that make patchwerk seem complex
    The three R's of Warlords of Draenor and that doesn't even mention flying, #savekarabor, blizzard store, tier to tier ilvl skips.

  17. #117
    Atonement is too good because:
    That mythical 50% of a healer 50% of a dps ratio is off. And the smart healing component is too good. It's too sustainable.

    That 50/50 ratio would work if the fight had even damage expectations with healing requirements. But healing is a zero sum, and it's variable. And the smart healing is fast (even faster than a casting healer's reaction times in some cases), efficient (because it can also go into absorbs), and passable even during phases with higher incoming damage. The mana neutrality perspective I'm looking at is a case where the mana per second of the cost in atonement spells equals or is very close to passive regen. And with the evangelism multipliers the playstyle of sitting at 5 stacks is working because you're still doing more total numbers as long as you're still casting atonement spells.

    I would have taken off the mana reduction from evangelism before adjusting the percentage of healing that the spell does. To each their own. This still won't allow for hardcasting single target heals, which should have a time and a place and currently don't (mathematically).

  18. #118
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Yes, spot on. As Disc I feel no need to ST heal at all, why on earth use a slow targeted GH that will probably overheal before I finished casting? Perhaps AA should work with heals only and another big advantage is Atonment is guaranteed to hit the target that will need it the most at the time the smite is finished or even better; instant with HF or 3 heals in a rapid serie with Penance then why bother target heal when a smart dmg spell will do the job for you and at a very low cost.

    Disc became very mindless now. Atonment and then SS at convenient 1min boss AoE timer. No mana issues either.
    I say make real healing worth it again and raise the manacost of Atonment healing to match FH/GH. The dmg+heal is worth more than it cost. If you do these changes it will be worth to actually cast healingspells when you gain AA. And yes, numbers may need tweaking but you get the idea.

    I know this is from my Holy perspective, I know many like to dps heal a lot. I just think its getting a little monotonious and mindless and too beneficial compared to actually make choices about who to heal and what spell to use:O

    Time to hide from all Disc attacks... lol:-D

  19. #119
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    I dunno, I like atonement. To be more specific, I like the idea behind it and the dps-variable. The numbers should be tweaked, yes, but I wouldn't personally want to make discs "like every other healer" bringing back single target spamming. Either the mana cost of smite should be upped, dps of atonement should be tuned down, or the healing bit lowered even further (which would cripple us a bit with pure throughput (read: not absorbs)) but atm the numbers are a bit obscured. I'd personally tune down the dps factor, but again, that's from someone who quite likes the current playing of a disc.

    I'm not sure how many other healer classes some of the whiners play, nor am I sure if those people are just on a vendetta to get the "old healing style" back, but either way it's all a bit off. I play a resto druid (and an undergeared resto shaman) on the side of my disc and I have to say I'm not sure it's valid to say other healing classes are "more complicated" or requiring more brain usage. As a resto I have to mouseover a tad more with reju, but WG / SM spamming reapplying LB once a blue moon isn't much more exhilarating to be fair. Same goes for the meaningful positioning of Healing rain, facesmashing totems (woohoo there's a cd) and so forth, which equally so account for the majority of healing done with those classes. I used to love my resto druid, but nowadays it lacks the dps utility and "premeditation" abilities of a disc.

    So many people make it sound like 90% of your fights is sitting still spamming smite, but has it occurred you could actually do more than that? Granted; you dont have to in order to keep people alive, but the emphasize here is YOU CAN do other things. If you want to be a pure healing class: roll a pure healing class, not like here aren't choices out there. Spec holy for all it's worth. And if the argument there is "but disc is better" then you really need to figure out which one you are arguing for, the healing style of a disc priest, or that they're "just that good" on most bosses.

    It's brilliant to have a filler spell to cast instead of sitting down circulating your thumbs around your buttox, Blizzard just has the numbers a bit off with the "filler". I don't want to go back to having to precasting heals on a tank that takes 0 dmg for the next xx ages just for the sake of doing something, we've already done that, and paladins can still do that and feel like the important pillars they are. If you don't like the play style, roll something else (but I've always been a disc and I loved it: guess what, things/classes change) As for Blizz: tweak the bloody numbers already.

  20. #120
    The smart heal component of Atonement, as has been stated by several others in this thread already, effectively removes any complexity of healing alltogether. Whenever I go from my main (restoration shaman) to my disc priest (alt), I feel like I'm going from playing chess against Garry Kasparov to playing tic tac toe with Laurel and Hardy.

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