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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Warriors don't use Shield Block except in very specific circumstances. I was of course referring to the base chance to block that puts Warriors at least over 50% chance to not have a straight unmitigated hit through. In that specific circumstance, if the warrior hasn't used Shield Barrier to absorb some damage at least once every 3 or 4 seconds, they're just playing wrong. Speaking of reactive healing/damage reduction...

    More maximum health increases not just your healer's buffer zone to react, but yours as well. Does it matter if you get into EH spam range if you die one second after you're at 35%? What if you go straight from 36% to 0%? How do you react with GotO orbs when you're spiking so much that you're at 60% health after every attack?

    The numbers involved in the Agility and Stam comparison aren't technically relevant to the logic of the question: why is reducing damage taken over the length of the entire fight, or decreasing the time in which you're vulnerable from 50% of the time to 55% of the time matter so much more than making sure you don't get gibbed when that inevitably will happen? I know asking Brewmasters that have been performing "just fine" for 6 months to reevaluate their thought process is a lot, but just look at the merits of the argument itself and forget what the current paradigm is for a moment. Why is using 2 DPS trinkets better if you're sitting at such a low max HP that you can die before anyone can react? The fact is that pure stamina is the only thing that increases your "unlucky EH" (effective health if you don't happen to get those dodges/parries), and choosing Agility over it at every possible junction is not smart gearing.
    We really must be playing a different game the more I read your posts. You talk about needing 700k hp for normal ToT and melee swings taking 40% of your hp? What bosses are that exactly? Abilities like that are special abilities, like talon rake, hydra breaths, snapping bite, etc. Most of which you can have some sort of cd up for mind you. Melee attacks that require 700k for normal modes? Wow. Get healers that aren't sleeping please. Or learn to use your own abilities better.

    In case you're pushing content with lower than intended gear, sure, you may need more EH. That doesn't apply to most raiders tho. And even in THAT case, why on earth would you go for stamina instead of mastery? Stacking mastery currently can go to insane levels already (especially with new 2pc) so it's so much better than stamina for any fight that isn't magic heavy. Oh. You must be talking about all those awesome stamina trinkets that are available. Let's see... Either you get 489/476 ones, or you get lucky on lei shen and get the static stamina one there with the amazing 55k absorb. At least the agility trinkets have 2 useful stats.

  2. #22
    You should actually taken amongst the least amount of total damage on this fight. During the entire time of Devastating Combo you're building stacks of Elusive Brew, Guard should come off CD, etc. When Combo is finished pop Guard, when thats depleted pop EB and use Expel Harm and Chi Wave as appropriate to keep your health up. Then the next Combo should begin. Assuming you aren't getting hit by any Dev. Arcs, you should only be facing really heavy damage during Titan Gas, in which case you pop Fort Brew or an Armor potion and ask for a healer CD.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Derpette View Post
    We really must be playing a different game the more I read your posts. You talk about needing 700k hp for normal ToT and melee swings taking 40% of your hp? What bosses are that exactly? Abilities like that are special abilities, like talon rake, hydra breaths, snapping bite, etc. Most of which you can have some sort of cd up for mind you. Melee attacks that require 700k for normal modes? Wow. Get healers that aren't sleeping please. Or learn to use your own abilities better.
    You're confusing different things that I'm talking about. If a melee swing is taking 40% of your health, you definitely don't have 700k health, but it's what happens when you're at 525k and tanking Will of the Emperor, which doesn't even do melee attacks for half of the fight. The point was to get enough health so that melee attacks are not 40% of your health.

    What I also meant by minimum health levels aren't what you omg absolutely positively need or you're gonna die, but that if you're below that level gemming/enchanting for different things is probably not a great idea. I was also not talking about ToT normal and heroic modes, obviously, because trinkets are a much different situation, the tier bonuses make crit far more important, and most importantly: the OP was talking about 10 man normal Will of the Emperor in 490 ilvl gear, not Throne of Thunder in 510 ilvl gear. We can reasonably assume that what happens in ToT is irrelevant for this particular thread.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by stellvia View Post
    You should actually taken amongst the least amount of total damage on this fight. During the entire time of Devastating Combo you're building stacks of Elusive Brew, Guard should come off CD, etc. When Combo is finished pop Guard, when thats depleted pop EB and use Expel Harm and Chi Wave as appropriate to keep your health up. Then the next Combo should begin. Assuming you aren't getting hit by any Dev. Arcs, you should only be facing really heavy damage during Titan Gas, in which case you pop Fort Brew or an Armor potion and ask for a healer CD.
    I disagree with when you say to use guard. If you use guard right away you will have hardly any vengeance and guard scales exponentially well with attack power.

  5. #25
    The Patient
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    It really is a BrM second best fight in MSV. I wish my monk was levelled while we were progressing through there!

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Armory isn't working right now, so I can only guess as to your gear choices. The most common mistake I see with Brewmasters that are dying when they have good Shuffule uptime and are purifying regularly is an overvaluing of Agility. If you are using two DPS trinkets, gemming haste or Agility, and using Agility leg/shoulder enchants, you likely are only sitting at 525-550k health raid buffed. As great as Agility is for threat, black ox shields, and EB uptime, healers do have cast times and reaction times, and all the EB uptime in the world won't help you when it's down if you've only got 550k health (to contrast, my warrior alt in 481 ilvl has 580k, awful avoidance stats, but I do have a deep enough health pool to not die in 2 hits). For any content you do, there is a minimum health level for all tanks, even if Agility is your best stat. For T14 normals, I'd put it around 600k fully buffed, T14 heroic around 650k, and ToT normals around 700k. I know a lot of people will disagree with that, but it's the truth, healers care a LOT more about your ability to go 100-0 than they do how much overall damage you take throughout a fight.
    I never had this much health, I only hit 600k in this tier. I'm also the preferred tank for any single tank fight for our group, our healers couldn't keep the dk up doing things like solo tanking H Wind Lord, but I was no issue. Even without that health, I never came close to dying while making errors from time to time on the will fight, so I'm honestly inclined to believe there's more to the story, but we have no logs.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 10:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinchib View Post
    It really is a BrM second best fight in MSV. I wish my monk was levelled while we were progressing through there!
    popping EB will also lengthen the life span of that guard once you have the vengeance, while freeing you to build more stacks if you managed to get high stacks prior to returning to this phase.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danund81
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  7. #27
    The Lightbringer Radio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    You're confusing different things that I'm talking about. If a melee swing is taking 40% of your health, you definitely don't have 700k health, but it's what happens when you're at 525k and tanking Will of the Emperor, which doesn't even do melee attacks for half of the fight. The point was to get enough health so that melee attacks are not 40% of your health.

    What I also meant by minimum health levels aren't what you omg absolutely positively need or you're gonna die, but that if you're below that level gemming/enchanting for different things is probably not a great idea. I was also not talking about ToT normal and heroic modes, obviously, because trinkets are a much different situation, the tier bonuses make crit far more important, and most importantly: the OP was talking about 10 man normal Will of the Emperor in 490 ilvl gear, not Throne of Thunder in 510 ilvl gear. We can reasonably assume that what happens in ToT is irrelevant for this particular thread.
    I first started killing Will of the Emporer normal at about 475 ilvl with something silly like 450-480k raid buffed. I took about 5-10k less DPS than our DK tank and the healer on me always said I was a dream to heal on that fight.

    One funny moment though: More recently, when my monk was about 500-505ilvl, I joined in an alt run for a guildie, we get up to Will normal (with 10% nerf engaged) and pull. During the 2nd Titan Gas phase, I die.... Because I didn't receive a SINGLE external heal for 15 seconds after the titan gas started, not even a lifebloom! Embarrassing but healers are there for a reason.

  8. #28
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    Gonna go ahead and assume you were standing in Devastating Combo. You have to move for that. If not, dunno what could cause that without looking at logs.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by annarion View Post
    Gonna go ahead and assume you were standing in Devastating Combo. You have to move for that. If not, dunno what could cause that without looking at logs.
    That doesn't hurt monks as bad as other classes, it's still not good, but we get far more mitigation from shuffle and other abilities than armor.
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  10. #30
    Were you building up Elusive Brew stacks while dancing?

    If you really work at it, you can have a significant stack of EB up in-between every dance. Just tanking the bosses normally pretty much requires rolling active mitigation and cooldowns. They just hit really, really hard.

    I disagree with when you say to use guard. If you use guard right away you will have hardly any vengeance and guard scales exponentially well with attack power.
    This.
    Last edited by Felade; 2013-04-03 at 03:53 PM.

  11. #31
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    TBH for content where the abilities aren't 1 shotting you I like to glyph guard anyway and just soak up the +30% healing from gift of the ox / wave / expel harm. Only time I'd consider using guard as a proper shield (outside of magic fights) would be when I literally can't survive without it.

    Coming from a 10man perspective only ofc.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparowe View Post
    TBH for content where the abilities aren't 1 shotting you I like to glyph guard anyway and just soak up the +30% healing from gift of the ox / wave / expel harm. Only time I'd consider using guard as a proper shield (outside of magic fights) would be when I literally can't survive without it.

    Coming from a 10man perspective only ofc.
    Why? you're wasting an ability. If not for a specific magic ability or fight, why'd you glyph it? the healing has nothing to do with the glyph.

  13. #33
    The Lightbringer Fhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manu9 View Post
    Why? you're wasting an ability. If not for a specific magic ability or fight, why'd you glyph it? the healing has nothing to do with the glyph.
    When glyphed on non-magic fights, the guard stays up for the entire 30s, giving you a 30% increased self healing for the entire fight. I've read that it's inferior to having the actual absorbs though.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    When glyphed on non-magic fights, the guard stays up for the entire 30s, giving you a 30% increased self healing for the entire fight. I've read that it's inferior to having the actual absorbs though.
    The +/- of the glyph on non-magic fights is easy to figure out. For ease, assume a vengeance buffed guard is going to absorb 200k damage. If you take zero magic damage over 30 seconds, you will have to self-heal with no overheal for ~600k over 30 seconds. That's 20k per second of healing. That much healing is possible between chi wave, EH and GoTO orbs if you're using all those abilities on cooldown/generation. The question is, why?

    I can't imagine myself glyphing that way. If I am never in danger of dying, it's because we have the fight on farm and it doesn't matter what glyphs I use anyway. If I am in danger of dying, I would rather have guard as a possible "oh ****" button to buy my healers an extra global to bring me back up. My default is to not use the glyph, but I don't know that it matters on farm content anyway.

  15. #35
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    It sounds like something went horribly, horribly wrong, perhaps the fight bugged or something. The bosses only hit for around 90k now with the 10% nerf. Of course, thats about 120k on Monks, but you should NOT be going straight to red stagger after a single hit.

    Now, its possible that some coding went horribly, horrbly wrong for you, and that for some reason the 25% damage reduction+40% stagger thing was being misinterpreted as 65% extra damage taken for some odd reason...

    My first suggestion is to start keeping logs and uploading em, period. With that you could take a look at the fight and be able to say "Oops, i was actually in Tiger Stance" or "WTF? boss was meleeing me for 300k per hit but was meleeing other tank for 60k???".

    So, yea, if you ARE stating the truth, then chances are the fights bugged out on you. It's happened before by my reckoning, I do remember seeing a number of posts here during T14 stating that tanks were simply getting SMACKED by the boss, with a simple change of tanks downing the encounter easily.

    Start keeping logs so you can go through fights like that and see EXACTLY what happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  16. #36
    This really sounds like a case of broken armor as someone previously asked. I know that Armor itself isn't a huge deal for Brewmasters, but losing certain other stats could be bad.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    It sounds like something went horribly, horribly wrong, perhaps the fight bugged or something. The bosses only hit for around 90k now with the 10% nerf. Of course, thats about 120k on Monks, but you should NOT be going straight to red stagger after a single hit.

    Now, its possible that some coding went horribly, horrbly wrong for you, and that for some reason the 25% damage reduction+40% stagger thing was being misinterpreted as 65% extra damage taken for some odd reason...

    My first suggestion is to start keeping logs and uploading em, period. With that you could take a look at the fight and be able to say "Oops, i was actually in Tiger Stance" or "WTF? boss was meleeing me for 300k per hit but was meleeing other tank for 60k???".

    So, yea, if you ARE stating the truth, then chances are the fights bugged out on you. It's happened before by my reckoning, I do remember seeing a number of posts here during T14 stating that tanks were simply getting SMACKED by the boss, with a simple change of tanks downing the encounter easily.

    Start keeping logs so you can go through fights like that and see EXACTLY what happened.
    What? Monk mitigation is pretty high, there's no way a proper monk is getting hit on 120k avg to another tanks 90k avg.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danund81
    Just SAY IT.* "I'm right you're wrong and I know it because I have the power of a website's link."

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    So, yea, if you ARE stating the truth, then chances are the fights bugged out on you. It's happened before by my reckoning, I do remember seeing a number of posts here during T14 stating that tanks were simply getting SMACKED by the boss, with a simple change of tanks downing the encounter easily.
    I don't recall a lot of bugs with boss damage, just improperly played tanks. There is a big difference, even when geared, between a properly played tank and an improperly played one when it comes to damage intake.

    Honestly we can guess, we can talk about armor, about bugs, about whatever. But there's no way to tell what happened since the OP gave zero useful information. Maybe he just thought he had shuffle but didn't. Maybe the boss bugged out. Maybe he took extra damage from invisible mobs hiding in the ceiling.

    Even a screenshot of Recount/Skada or a copy-pasted death log would have helped but quite honestly, OP, you should have known that.

  19. #39
    Deleted
    I wrote half a page of info and gave "zero useful information", lol. Thanks for all the replies guys, except Mr. Voidspark whose every sentence just reeks with arrogance and thinly veiled hints at me being an improperly played tank. I killed Will on heroic pre-nerf, but apparently normal Will, nerfed, is too hard for me...

    Seriously, do you guys make logs of freaking alt runs done at 2 am? Because I certainly do not.

    And it truly seems like the fight bugged out for me, because I did look at my combat log after death, and I was taking regular melee hits between 150-170k. Definitely not 90-120k.

    Armor wasn't broken.
    Last edited by mmoc498e172801; 2013-04-04 at 12:40 PM. Reason: spelling

  20. #40
    Did this fight on my monk at ~368 ilvl, then on heroic at ~490 ilvl, pop elusive brew after every combo, and the fight is pretty easy. My healers even commented on how much easier I was to heal than our other tank. If you indeed did everything perfectly as you have said, then I truly have no idea.

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