1. #1

    Stat snapshots and skills.

    So I've got a few questions: Which of our skills use stat snapshots from the moment they were used in (*) and which scale dynamically?
    I know that AMoC scales dynamically and Serpent Sting doesn't but can someone with more knowledge on the topic provide some wrap-up?

    (*) A similar question: when I fire Arcane Shot or use Glaive Toss - do they use my stats at the moment of their usage or at the moment they hit the target? How does Bestial Wrath interact with it? When I use Glaive Toss while BW is active but it hits the target after BW has expired does it benefit from the dmg bonus BW grants?

  2. #2
    Unless I happen to have missed something, I believe only Murder of Crows updates dynamically. Refreshing Serpent Sting with Cobra Shot or Chimera Shot updates it with your current stats but the DoT does not update with procs or buffs by itself.

    As for projectiles landing right after getting a buff, I honestly don't know. I'm assuming from when they are shot and not when they land. But aside from Glaive Toss right before Bestial Wrath, is this really something you can calculate in?
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-04-02 at 12:44 PM. Reason: Grammar error.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawtdawg View Post
    So I've got a few questions: Which of our skills use stat snapshots from the moment they were used in (*) and which scale dynamically?
    I know that AMoC scales dynamically and Serpent Sting doesn't but can someone with more knowledge on the topic provide some wrap-up?

    (*) A similar question: when I fire Arcane Shot or use Glaive Toss - do they use my stats at the moment of their usage or at the moment they hit the target? How does Bestial Wrath interact with it? When I use Glaive Toss while BW is active but it hits the target after BW has expired does it benefit from the dmg bonus BW grants?
    This is not a 100% correct info, its just my experience - Glaive Toss definetly takes a snapshot on the moment of hitting, probably the same with Arcane Shot. Afaik all our dots scale dynamicaly, this should apply to Serpent Sting as well.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Kibu View Post
    Afaik all our dots scale dynamicaly, this should apply to Serpent Sting as well.
    That is incorrect, or it was before 5.2 at least.

    This is quite simple to test as well. Apply Serpent Sting and after that try to get some procs and use a potion, the ticks will do the same damage. There has been some talk about using Lynx Rush once you got Renataki's Soul Charm and apply the final stack of the DoT right when the trinket is about to drop off. This way your Lynx Rush will do the whole DoT with the trinket's power.

    Admittedly the last time I actually tested this was right before 5.2. But I find it very unlikely this has been changed and went under my radar.

    EDIT:
    Just tried it in-game once again, I used Serpent Sting on a dummy, attacked a different one for procs, then used a potion and used Serpent Sting on another 3rd different dummy. The first Serpent Sting's damage did not change at all, while the 2nd did considerably more damage.

    Conclusion, Serpent Sting does not update with stats. It keeps it's stats when it is applied. I have absolutely no reason to believe Black Arrow and Lynx Rush are any different. They weren't before 5.2, and nothing has changed in terms of their mechanics.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-04-02 at 12:39 PM.

  5. #5
    Dire Beast should update its stat dynamically as AMoC does.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by spiattalo View Post
    Dire Beast should update its stat dynamically as AMoC does.
    Crud, I should have mentioned in my first post that I was talking about DoTs specifically.
    But yea I believe that is correct.

  7. #7
    Thanks a lot, you've been very helpful guys.
    Now there's only the second part: which stat snapshot is used while calculating the damage - when I hit the button or when the skill hits the target?

    I'm mailny interested in this because I have Renataki's. Say I have 1.5 sec left on Renataki's and have GT off cd. What do I do?
    Scenario 1: Damage is calculated upon skill hitting the target.
    I delay GT and fire Arcane Shot which will get to my target in this 1.5 sec and benefit from Renataki's. GT because of its slow speed wouldn't make it to my target within this 1.5 sec.
    Scenario 2: Damage is calculated upon me hitting the button.
    Obviously I use GT.

    I know these are some minor differences but it really bugs me.
    Also despite it being something so minor it could add up to few hundred dps in favourable conditions therfore possibly earing me a bit higher rank on WoL

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawtdawg View Post
    Thanks a lot, you've been very helpful guys.
    Now there's only the second part: which stat snapshot is used while calculating the damage - when I hit the button or when the skill hits the target?

    I'm mailny interested in this because I have Renataki's. Say I have 1.5 sec left on Renataki's and have GT off cd. What do I do?
    Scenario 1: Damage is calculated upon skill hitting the target.
    I delay GT and fire Arcane Shot which will get to my target in this 1.5 sec and benefit from Renataki's. GT because of its slow speed wouldn't make it to my target within this 1.5 sec.
    Scenario 2: Damage is calculated upon me hitting the button.
    Obviously I use GT.

    I know these are some minor differences but it really bugs me.
    Also despite it being something so minor it could add up to few hundred dps in favourable conditions therfore possibly earing me a bit higher rank on WoL
    There's way more important shit to worry about if you want a high WoL ranking. I doubt even the #1 ranked players know or even give a shit if GT benefits from procs on cast or when it hits.

  9. #9
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    If only Black arrow updated dynamically

  10. #10
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    BA, ES, SrS are all snapshot, but the latter two don't matter since ES is so short a DoT anyways and has the Ignite mechanic for further ES's rolled into the original, and SrS can be updated via CoS.

    As for your Rentaki's question, I am almost positive all abilities snapshot on firing. It would make very little sense to do otherwise. Travel time would only matter inasmuch as debuffs are applied to the boss, not whether buffs are applied to the player.

    Of course, I'm saying that off the top of my head without testing, but I cannot fathom why you (IE, Blizz) would snapshot something on-hit as opposed to on-firing, it would be asking hunters to play essentially 1s behind all their buffs.

    Anecdotally, on my frost mage, my Fingers of Frost proc on casting a cast time spell, is consumed on casting ice lance, but if I deep freeze a target (IE, put a debuff on it), ice lance will continue to do Shatter damage on-hit til the deep freeze ends. That's why frost mages, when they have a FoF charge (in PvE), will frostbolt into Deep Freeze, because by the time frostbolt reaches the target, it gets frozen (as Deep Freeze has no travel time), and the frostbolt gets the multiplier to crit effect.

    Back to hunters though, AMoC and Blink Strike (obviously, it's a single GCD nuke) are dynamic, while Lynx Rush is effectively dynamic during its 4s cast (IE, each hit snapshots your stats on hit, but it's 9 hits in 4s so it's constantly updating), rolled up into a massive, snapshotted bleed. If you can time a LR in the last 4s of Rentaki's, it should theoretically be super powerful. Not enough to delay it though, and wait for a proc, since RPPM is so flaky about proccing sometimes. Like someone mentioned, DB is also dynamic.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2013-04-03 at 07:59 PM.

  11. #11
    I just tested on the dummies with glaive toss, naked except for a low level bow and gloves with engineering tinker.
    Glaive toss definitely snapshots stats upon impact, not casting.

    Using glaive toss followed by engineering tinker while it was in flight (doubling my agility) resulted in significantly increased damage.
    Using glaive toss with 1 second left on engineering tinker, and having it hit after tinker buff faded resulted in no damage increase.

    Hope that helps
    I will now be prioritising Arcane Shot over Glaive Toss when I have 1-2 seconds left on Renatakis.
    I also tested DoT snapshots and learned a couple of things. AMoC updates dynamically, Black Arrow snapshots at time of cast (I was previously delaying casting BA with a few seconds left on Renataki since I thought it was dynamic), Serpent Sting snapshots - however refreshing with Cobra will update stats (I may abuse that with multi-shot and trinket procs)

    Edit: Explosive does not update dynamically (except when recasting during LNL), so casting with 1 second left on Renataki's is good.
    Last edited by mediic; 2013-04-05 at 01:56 PM.

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