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  1. #21
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    I find that GW2s PvE suffers greatly as a result. As mentioned previously none of the encounters can have complex mechanics.
    While few of the current GW2 encounters have complex mechanics (whether by design or as a result of design failure), that's unrelated to the presence or absence of a trinity mechanic. A standstill fight in WoW or Rift is not particularly complicated, either; there's nothing inherently complicated about tank/DPS/healing.

    What makes WoW raid encounters difficult is not that pushing healing buttons is harder than pushing a dodge button at the right time, but that GW2 is roughly at the encounter design stage of early/mid vanilla WoW, which were largely relatively straightforward execution/gear checks (where much of the complexity came from herding 40 cats). The major advance in encounter design in WoW since then -- aside from more multi-phase bosses -- has been the addition of multiple concurrent encounter mechanics. Dealing with multiple mechanics concurrently means multitasking, which humans are generally not very good at natively, and so that has to be learned and mastered for every individual encounter, until dealing with multiple encounter mechanics simultaneously or in quick succession becomes second nature.

    The classic example was the combination of Val'kyr Shadowguards and Defile on the Lich King (or, on heroic mode, Shadow Trap + Necrotic Plague management, too). In short, more recent WoW raid encounters rely much more on multitasking/coordinating through (often multiply incompatible). E.g., on the Lich King, Val'kyr Shadowguards required you to stack up near the center of the platform, while Defile required you to spread out away from it, and you didn't know in which order it was going to happen for the second one. Lei Shen is also full of such mechanics (as has been pretty much any fight since T11). This is in contrast with vanilla WoW raids (or even current WoW dungeons, which for the most part, are a far cry from current WoW raids), which were/are largely about not standing in stuff, avoiding one-shot mechanics, or maximizing DPS/healing (a lot of vanilla encounters were also made difficult by simply having insufficient mechanics, such as aggro-trading on untauntable bosses without a threat meter, or the limited multi-mob threat of tanks, but that's a different story).

    There's little reason to believe that more complex encounter mechanics couldn't be adapted to GW2; whether ArenaNet wants to (or is willing to invest the effort to design, debug, and test these) is of course another story.
    Last edited by Sylvanie; 2013-04-04 at 04:45 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Xalzel View Post
    Its horrible for PvE and wonderful for PvP. Anything not warrior or Guardian will never get into instance groups. But it removes the crazy healing in PvP.
    That means all the other classes must be running solo content only then.

    Oh wait, they still get into groups... the non-trinity system works well in both areas, while there are areas you can gear and spec to do better (Take more dmg, deal more dmg, support the group in various areas) it's not a must and all the content (bar high level fractals) is doable geared and specced as you want.
    Quote Originally Posted by Potboza View Post
    I created a black human male called "Pedopriest" and ran him to SW.
    I started asking where the schools were.
    Someone said "My kids play on this server you creep! How can you live with yourself?"
    I whispered back, "How old are they?"
    Yeah.

  3. #23
    WoW has some pretty "simplistic" heroic encounters which are hard purely due to the healing/damage requirements. GW2 couldn't ever have the same. That itself is a downfall: you're limiting encounter design on purpose for no good reason. Is PvP balance in GW2 any better? From what I've read here and experienced first hand it isn't.

  4. #24
    WoW encounters are "hard" in that they put pressure on a few individuals -- either role-based, like healing or dps checks, or with specific encounters that a single/few people need to handle (ie, bells on Atramedes), or a combination of the two. Sure, dps checks mean that deaths may lead to a wipe, because the loss of dps can't be covered by the rest of the raid, at least at that given snapshot of gear+players. However, you're still "limiting encounter design for no good reason". You can't go into current content without tanks, or without healers, or without dps. In fact, the only time an encounter is actually difficult is when they throw new mechanics (such as Ultraxion with the extra action button) at the players -- and that's a "when do I hit this single button" problem, and completely out of the scope of the trinity. Gear check encounters, on the other hand, are not fun, they just artificially limit progression. And that's all that "healing/damage requirements" are. So I, for one, am thankful that that region of encounter design is avoided -- even though technically, it's possible to include such mechanics, i.e. via continually spawning adds (ie, if you kill them, that's less time on the boss, and if you don't, that's more potential incoming damage).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    Is PvP balance in GW2 any better? From what I've read here and experienced first hand it isn't.
    As compared to WoW? Yes, it's leaps and bounds better. As compared to GW1 no, not there yet.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    As compared to WoW? Yes, it's leaps and bounds better. As compared to GW1 no, not there yet.
    It doesn't matter if it's better though, if it's not perfectly balanced the only reason for not having a holy trinity is (seemingly) because they couldn't be bothered exploring diversity. All classes can DPS with utility (which is the same in WoW mind you) yet none have the ability to tank or heal, I think it just reeks a bit of 'laziness' n a developmental process.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    All classes can DPS with utility (which is the same in WoW mind you) yet none have the ability to tank or heal, I think it just reeks a bit of 'laziness' n a developmental process.
    wow, this just boggles my mind

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    WoW has some pretty "simplistic" heroic encounters which are hard purely due to the healing/damage requirements. GW2 couldn't ever have the same. That itself is a downfall: you're limiting encounter design on purpose for no good reason.
    Well, WoW has largely abandoned raw gear check fights. The last tier that I recall with a significant number of fights that focused on gear checks was T10 (Deathbringer Saurfang, Festergut, Bloodqueen Lana'thel), and even those fights had significant confounding mechanics, especially on heroic mode. Since then, pure gear check fights have been few and far between (of course, especially heroic modes have significant gear checks on top of complex mechanics as an additional constraint, but not as the principal source of difficulty). Right now, we seem to get at most one per raid (e.g. Lei Shi).

    The primary reason is simple: gear check fights just aren't very interesting. Once you've got the very basic mechanics down, it's just a numbers game. Heroic Deathbring Saurfang 25 was the classical example: Bring enough holy paladins and hope that nobody gets a lag spike. These fights are interesting for the adrenaline rush effect and for people who do enjoy the numbers game, but you can do that only so often and keep it interesting.

    Gear check fights also impose limitations on game design: You need fairly homogeneous classes (so that class stacking does not become an effective strategy) and a fairly standardized raid composition. You also pretty much require hard (instead of soft) DPS checks, such as fixed enrage timers, so that healer stacking does not become a viable strategy (in mechanics-heavy fights, you pay for more healers with longer fights and more opportunities to screw up and an increasing likelihood to do that).

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    It doesn't matter if it's better though, if it's not perfectly balanced the only reason for not having a holy trinity is (seemingly) because they couldn't be bothered exploring diversity. All classes can DPS with utility (which is the same in WoW mind you) yet none have the ability to tank or heal, I think it just reeks a bit of 'laziness' n a developmental process.
    Tanks only exist to make encounters easier (from a server standpoint, mainly -- and a balancing standpoint). Healers only exist to make up for dpsers mistakes and because tanks need healing. Remove tanks, and then healers only become about either making up for dps mistakes, or because the damage output is greater than the ability to avoid/prevent/minimize incoming damage.

    Giving players the tools to survive on their own, or fail on their own, is lazy? Mind=blown

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    Tanks only exist to make encounters easier
    That's one way to look at it.

    Or, you could say "tanks only exist to allow encounters to be designed in a way that's harder/more complex".

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    That's one way to look at it.

    Or, you could say "tanks only exist to allow encounters to be designed in a way that's harder/more complex".
    How does the presence of tanks make encounters harder/more complex? Nobody has had to worry about aggro management in WoW for years; tanks do have more survivability, but you could tune down boss damage by a factor equivalent to the mitigation difference between tanks and DPS and replace them with DPS classes with an aggro aura (such as Righteous Fury) and it would not change the encounter design one bit.

    If you want to say that having predictable aggro (which is different from having tanks) changes encounter design, true enough, but predictable aggro can make encounters both easier and harder. With predictable aggro, the rest of the group never have to worry about being attacked by a boss, with unpredictable aggro, it's more difficult to design an encounter where the boss's positioning is controlled precisely.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvanie View Post
    How does the presence of tanks make encounters harder/more complex? Nobody has had to worry about aggro management in WoW for years; tanks do have more survivability, but you could tune down boss damage by a factor equivalent to the mitigation difference between tanks and DPS and replace them with DPS classes with an aggro aura (such as Righteous Fury) and it would not change the encounter design one bit.

    If you want to say that having predictable aggro (which is different from having tanks) changes encounter design, true enough, but predictable aggro can make encounters both easier and harder. With predictable aggro, the rest of the group never have to worry about being attacked by a boss, with unpredictable aggro, it's more difficult to design an encounter where the boss's positioning is controlled precisely.
    Having a tank doesn't make the encounters harder. But because having tanks and healers makes encounters easier(whole is greater than the sum of its parts), that means the encounter itself can be designed harder.

    Let me give an example. Let's say we have an imaginary difficulty scale. Two groups, one in GW2 and one in WoW. Based on their skill and gear, they're able to defeat an encounter of difficulty level 6.

    So tanks make the encounter easier by 2 levels of difficulty and healers the same. So an encounter designed as a level 6 difficulty fight is much easier for the WoW trinity group because with a tank and healer, the fight feels more like a level 2 difficulty fight(-2 for tank and -2 for healer). BUT, that means that Blizzard can design a level 10 difficulty fight and it will feel like a level 6 to the WoW group. So in both games, the groups encounter 2 fights that feel like difficulty 6 which they defeat, but the WoW fight was actually difficulty level 10.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    Having a tank doesn't make the encounters harder. But because having tanks and healers makes encounters easier(whole is greater than the sum of its parts), that means the encounter itself can be designed harder.

    Let me give an example. Let's say we have an imaginary difficulty scale. Two groups, one in GW2 and one in WoW. Based on their skill and gear, they're able to defeat an encounter of difficulty level 6.

    So tanks make the encounter easier by 2 levels of difficulty and healers the same. So an encounter designed as a level 6 difficulty fight is much easier for the WoW trinity group because with a tank and healer, the fight feels more like a level 2 difficulty fight(-2 for tank and -2 for healer). BUT, that means that Blizzard can design a level 10 difficulty fight and it will feel like a level 6 to the WoW group. So in both games, the groups encounter 2 fights that feel like difficulty 6 which they defeat, but the WoW fight was actually difficulty level 10.
    Which is why GW2 encounters are vastly harder than WoWs? No, they are not. All of the encounters boil down to "kite and res people who are in a downed state."

  14. #34
    Editing a post from not that long ago, but here goes:

    Hey you, yes you:
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    Which is why GW2 encounters are vastly harder than WoWs? No, they are not. All of the encounters boil down to "kite and res people who are in a downed state."
    Answer this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Not really. Most fights from a tank's point of view are "Pick up adds (if relevant). Interrupt this thing. Move out of things. Said things will either Cleave or they will Saber Lash, and sometimes you have to kite".

    Cool. Now pick a DPS. Do your full damage rotation. You will either be doing it to a single target or occasionally groups. Also occasionally you will swap targets. Continue doing full damage rotation, when required incorporating movement to either avoid damage mechanics or occasionally pick up a rare beneficial element. Repeat.


    Go ahead and try to describe fights to me with elements outside of this.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Editing a post from not that long ago, but here goes:

    Hey you, yes you:

    Answer this:
    I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or you really are just being an annoyance.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    Which is why GW2 encounters are vastly harder than WoWs? No, they are not. All of the encounters boil down to "kite and res people who are in a downed state."
    You obviously haven't played the game.
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
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  17. #37
    Pretty much any class in the game can heal, tank, dps, kite, CC, be a dotter, support buffer/debuffer, etc. Some classes are better than others at certain role(s). Some classes can have almost completely different sub-playstyles depending on how you spec. Of course there are still some balancing issues with certain specs/whole classes but generally all the classes can fill at-least 1 standard role (as stated above) and be relatively good at it(for pvp at-least since i don't pve)

    But really if u want to play all roles at once, play a full kit & rifle spec engineer in pvp and pretty much do everything i stated above with ease. (imo obviously)

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    You obviously haven't played the game.
    Please argue more that GW2 PvE encounters have anything even remotely as complex as encounters in other MMOs which are driven by an active holy trinity.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    Please argue more that GW2 PvE encounters have anything even remotely as complex as encounters in other MMOs which are driven by an active holy trinity.
    I've yet to actually argue that Guild Wars 2 fights are harder. I agree that they are simpler, though explicitly not because of reasons that you say they are. You've yet to disprove my point, or make your case for why suddenly including a taunt button on a character suddenly automatically makes encounter design more fluid or dynamic, but now call me obtuse. I'm not the one missing a point here.

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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    Please argue more that GW2 PvE encounters have anything even remotely as complex as encounters in other MMOs which are driven by an active holy trinity.
    That's not the argument...who's being deliberately obtuse now? The argument that "all encounters boil down to kite and res downed players" is being contested -- and you still haven't answered Kel's question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

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