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  1. #21
    never liked alliance anyway

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimator View Post
    Such a major player in WoW universe as Horde should not need or allow help of Alliance or any other faction. This just shows weakness of the Horde, its shows that they cannot deal with situation themself and must rely on help of their enemies to clean up mess within.
    Hmmm, are we role playing here ? US and Germany got along, Germany goes nuts against the world, Europe can't handle it themselves, US joins in world war with people they don't particularly love (Russia), defeats Germany. Some years later, US and Germany pretty good friends US and Russia, have strange relationship still. I'm sure Europe has had many many more changes of friends and enemies over the years.

    Your enemies don't have to be forever your enemies and Friends\Allies may not always be your Allies.

    The Horde is not weak for needing help with Garrosh. Granted for in game PvP reasons we need to be dislike each other, but I think WoW would be a more interesting place is races switched around every Xpac or so. It would definitely be more realistic to the way the real world works.
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-04-02 at 04:11 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimator View Post
    We know, that Alliance is joing Horde revolutionists in attempt to Siegie and ewentually assault Org.
    And why this is bad news for Horde? Because politically speaking its weaking the faction. Such a major player in WoW universe as Horde should not need or allow help of Alliance or any other faction. This just shows weakness of the Horde, its shows that they cannot deal with situation themself and must rely on help of their enemies to clean up mess within.
    The alliance contingent that will arrive at gates of Org will use Horde supplies, they will see Horde tactics, logistics etc. up close.
    Varian might want peace treaty with Horde after Garosh's demise but others might have diffrent point wiev.
    He may be "king" of the Alliance but dont forget about Jaina, Garosh head might be not enoigh for her.
    What you think?
    'Sorry for syntax, english is not my native.
    i think the hordes pride would have been there downfall if that was there case.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Hmmm, are we role playing here ? US and Germany got along, Germany goes nuts against the world, Europe can't handle it themselves, US joins in world war with people they don't particularly love (Russia), defeats Germany. Some years later, US and Germany pretty good friends US and Russia, have strange relationship still.

    Your enemies don't have to be forever your enemies and Friends\Allies may not always be your Allies.

    The Horde is not weak for needing help with Garrosh. Granted for in game PvP reasons we need to be dislike each other, but I think WoW would be a more interesting place is races switched around every Xpac or so. It would definitely be more realistic to the way the real world works.
    ... And that would never work in a faction based online game.
    *broken link*
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  5. #25
    Org has the bulk of the Horde military infrastructure. Naval assets are useless since the city is land-locked. Org has the demolisher yards and probably build most of the catapults there too. The rebels would be limited to infantry and those tiny forsaken catapults, and I doubt they want to plague up their own city. And the terrain around the city is ideal for mechanized warfare, flat and empty. And our airforce is worthless, it crashes and burns it you give it a harsh look.

    Face it, the rebels need the Alliance. Otherwise the only thing the rebellion would do is make a lot of dead rebels and an even more overconfident and warmongering Garrosh.

  6. #26
    Or maybe they're trying to bring more ties so there's an excuse to team up yet again when the Legion comes knocking. This tired, cliche, overdone, overwrought war story is getting ridiculously contrived to keep it going.

    This game suffers from the core story never evolving. Every conflict, every victory, every event is just another layer of paint plastered on top of a 20 years old core story that has hardly changed.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Here's the thing though. The Alliance isn't at war the with Horde as such, it's at war with Garrosh's Horde, there's a major difference.
    That excuse will only apply during and after 5.3.
    Like it or not the events prior to this are still "Horde" there is no Garrosh's Horde or Thrall's Horde and are simply different philosophies and goals, not organisations.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    ... And that would never work in a faction based online game.
    Why not ? Because people are sooooo hardcore Horde or Alliance that they would quit at the thought of playing a different faction ? Is that so different than people not wanting to incorporate other races into their culture today ? Granted there would have to be some tweaks made to the system and it would probably end up like the current Panda race, where each person chooses which faction they want or if they hated it too much, they would be giving a free race change.

    But I did say it would be more interesting, Not a great idea to implement immediately
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-04-02 at 04:23 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aixiz View Post
    Undercity says hi again.. Same thing. Horde problem; Alliance fixes it
    Uh no again that was both factions trying to take control. Thrall and company made it to Varimathras before Wrynn and company did. And If Jaina had not teleported them to Stormwind Wrynn would be dead.

    But this is different. The entire Revolution of the Horde is ccatering toward Thrall's peace oriented Horde. Who not better to bargain with than the enemy you no longer wish to fight?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    It's not a major Horde storyline - it's a major storyline, the end.
    At it's core though this is a very Horde orientated story, I mean that in just context and not execution of it (As in not "bias" story). How can it not be? Garrosh is a problem spawned by Horde politics. His actions have Horde players involved. He is the leader of the Horde. The final battle is the capital of the Horde.

    This is what I've been saying for a while about this story and the conclusion. It needs to be handled very carefully as there is a huge risk of isolating the Alliance out of the story. It's part of the reason I've remained somewhat disappointed with 5.3 as I feel that is also a Horde story.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    That excuse will only apply during and after 5.3.
    Like it or not the events prior to this are still "Horde" there is no Garrosh's Horde or Thrall's Horde and are simply different philosophies and goals, not organisations.
    Nope, it's been the case since MoP began really. Even before Theramore was blown up Baine returned his mace to Anduin, claiming that he couldn't keep it anymore, and that he didn't want war, but had to due to the fear of Garrosh. Same reason any other Horde race fights - the fear of Garrosh. And when we are dealing with these factions the philosophy and goals are alpha and omega.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 04:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Why not ? Because people are sooooo hardcore Horde or Alliance that they would quit at the thought of playing a different faction ? Is that so different than people not wanting to incorporate other races into their culture today ? Granted there would have to be some tweaks made to the system and it would probably end up like the current Panda race, where each person chooses which faction they want or if they hated it too much, they would be giving a free race change.

    But I did say it would be more interesting, Not a great idea to implement immediately
    Nah, because it would be a huge mess, that's why. Having say Trolls be an Alliance race for TBC, that means all troll players have to adjust to finding new guilds, new people, new friends etc, only to become Horde a year later with Wotlk.
    *broken link*
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    ... And that would never work in a faction based online game.
    It could. I mean that would only bother people that were diehard faction fans. What about the people that only care for their race?

    I agree though. WoW is based on (Horde v. Alliance) v. Big Bad Guy. Going away from that would ruin the entire premise.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    At it's core though this is a very Horde orientated story, I mean that in just context and not execution of it (As in not "bias" story). How can it not be? Garrosh is a problem spawned by Horde politics. His actions have Horde players involved. He is the leader of the Horde. The final battle is the capital of the Horde.

    This is what I've been saying for a while about this story and the conclusion. It needs to be handled very carefully as there is a huge risk of isolating the Alliance out of the story. It's part of the reason I've remained somewhat disappointed with 5.3 as I feel that is also a Horde story.
    You are disappointed with 5.3 despite the obvious fact that it's not done yet, and that we don't know the half of what will happen? Sure why not.
    As for Garrosh, Garrosh is a problem spawned by world altering aspects, such as the Lich King and the Cataclysm. Hadn't it been for the Scourge, Garrosh wouldn't have had the chance to prove that he's a "decent" soldier, thus earning fame. Had it not been for the Cataclysm, Thrall wouldn't have had to leave, leaving Garrosh in command. And yes, it's about taking down the leader of the Horde in the Horde capitol, why does that make it all Horde though? If anything the Alliance have a chance to feel like heroes, conquerors and liberators, and not just by-standers.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 04:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    It could. I mean that would only bother people that were diehard faction fans. What about the people that only care for their race?

    I agree though. WoW is based on (Horde v. Alliance) v. Big Bad Guy. Going away from that would ruin the entire premise.
    It's got nothing to do with the story or lore for once, it would simply just be a mess, being forced to leave guilds and learn new people etc with every expansion.
    Last edited by Venziir; 2013-04-02 at 04:31 PM.
    *broken link*
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Millie View Post
    This game suffers from the core story never evolving. Every conflict, every victory, every event is just another layer of paint plastered on top of a 20 years old core story that has hardly changed.
    It can't evolve because the story is game mechanically enforced. The Horde and Alliance will always be at war, neither side will ever win, territorial gains will always balance out, 99% of quests will mirror each other or be neutral.

    To change that would require a degree of radical change I don't believe Blizzard is capable of.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    At it's core though this is a very Horde orientated story, I mean that in just context and not execution of it (As in not "bias" story). How can it not be? Garrosh is a problem spawned by Horde politics. His actions have Horde players involved. He is the leader of the Horde. The final battle is the capital of the Horde.

    This is what I've been saying for a while about this story and the conclusion. It needs to be handled very carefully as there is a huge risk of isolating the Alliance out of the story. It's part of the reason I've remained somewhat disappointed with 5.3 as I feel that is also a Horde story.
    I would hope that SoO will show all major lore characters from both factions during the encounters and scenes. (The alternative being none or an ICC style cutscenes).

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Nope, it's been the case since MoP began really. Even before Theramore was blown up Baine returned his mace to Anduin, claiming that he couldn't keep it anymore, and that he didn't want war, but had to due to the fear of Garrosh. Same reason any other Horde race fights - the fear of Garrosh. And when we are dealing with these factions the philosophy and goals are alpha and omega.
    But how does that change the Alliance being at war with the Horde? It is because of this that characters like Baine and Vol'jin are so unhappy, they see it as shaming their name. Having a different motivation and philosophy to Garrosh is all fine and dandy but the fact is that they are part of the Horde. If they were literally two different factions I could understand, but they are not.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    It's got nothing to do with the story or lore for once, it would simply just be a mess, being forced to leave guilds and learn new people etc with every expansion.
    I truly concur.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Yes, cut the Alliance out of the expansion pack's conclusion and give us absolutely no closure for all Garrosh has done to our faction in cata and mop. That sounds great.

    Both sides have an angle to complain about here.

    Horde say 'omg we shouldn't need the alliance to overthrow our own corrupt warchief!'

    Alliance say 'omg we're just doing the Horde a favor here by giving them back Orgrimmar'

    Ultimately though, the moral of the expansion is not to let pride get the better of us, 'proud races must admit they need help,' so of course garrosh becomes a threat neither can defeat alone.
    There are alternatives to letting the Alliance into Org to kill the Horde Warchief that accomplish that. The major Horde Garrosh resistance sieges Org to arrest Garrosh. Once he is arrested he is given to a council of Horde and Alliance faction leaders that can decide what they want to do with him. So Jaina can get her revenge personally if she wants.

    The Alliance doesnt think they are doing the Horde a favor, they think they are doing what the Horde couldnt or wouldnt and are happily going to take out the leader of the Horde. If they could they would do the same to the other leaders and raze every city.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    Org has the bulk of the Horde military infrastructure. Naval assets are useless since the city is land-locked. Org has the demolisher yards and probably build most of the catapults there too. The rebels would be limited to infantry and those tiny forsaken catapults, and I doubt they want to plague up their own city. And the terrain around the city is ideal for mechanized warfare, flat and empty. And our airforce is worthless, it crashes and burns it you give it a harsh look.

    Face it, the rebels need the Alliance. Otherwise the only thing the rebellion would do is make a lot of dead rebels and an even more overconfident and warmongering Garrosh.
    The majority of their fleet (Naval and air) resides in that nice port parked right behind orgrimmar. They could just aswell deploy a bunch of ships to assault Sen'jin and the Echo Isles from behind

    And yeh, I do believe they are going to ask the Alliance for help. My prediction is that Thrall won't find any like-minded people in Orgrimmar because of the insane Kor'kron presence. So he will probably meet up with Varian at one point, since Varian has become a good tacticion and trap builder (BUBBLES! BUBBLES ERRYWHERE!) and I believe he would gladly supply Thrall and Vol'jin's forces to get rid of Garrosh for what he has done to his son
    Last edited by ExtremeActionTess; 2013-04-02 at 04:37 PM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    But how does that change the Alliance being at war with the Horde? It is because of this that characters like Baine and Vol'jin are so unhappy, they see it as shaming their name. Having a different motivation and philosophy to Garrosh is all fine and dandy but the fact is that they are part of the Horde. If they were literally two different factions I could understand, but they are not.
    The thing is, at this rate, they almost are different factions. We have the Horde (Garrosh) on one side, beleiving in conquest, power and supremacy - then we have the Horde (Trolls, Thrall,Tauren, Blood Elves, Forsaken, Goblin - possible Huojin Pandaren) who believe in freedom, peace and diplomacy. They are litteraly two different factions, despite being the same.
    *broken link*
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