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  1. #141
    Pandaren Monk Kuthe's Avatar
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    Honestly, after The Battle for Undercity, the reason Alliance bailed was due to the Horde and Alliance forces meeting after slaying their own bosses, and having to go back to Northrend.
    In Org it is the same boss, both going for Garrosh, so it works weird. But then I'm expecting Stormwind to be under attack by Legion forces 'after (4.5/5.0)' the SoO is complete, thus meaning the Alliance have to immediately bail from Orgrimmar to defend themselves and not attempt to take over Orgrimmar.
    We stopped searching for monsters under our beds when we realized that they were inside us.

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  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Yeah. I know from an in character standpoint, my character's attitude will be like 'where was your revolution when the people of Gilneas were forced to flee for their lives across the sea, to escape forsaken plagues? ..."
    I don't know. Where was you King's spine when the only thing stopping the Gilneans from pushing the Forsaken all the way back to Brill was a lame kidnapping plot?

    Seriously, you kicked the Horde's ass so hard (and I played both sides) in Gilneas, my worgen would have committed regicide if she found out why they retreated in the end. You king treats your people and land like so much fodder for his precious daughter. He's scum, unworthy of his crown.
    Last edited by Darmalus; 2013-04-03 at 04:05 AM.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    I don't know. Where was you King's spine when the only thing stopping the Gilneans from pushing the Forsaken all the way back to Brill was a lame kidnapping plot?

    Seriously, you kicked the Horde's ass so hard (and I played both sides) in Gilneas, my worgen would have committed regicide if she found out why they retreated in the end. You king treats your people and land like so much fodder for his precious daughter. He's scum, unworthy of his crown.
    Actually the Horde quests when I did them in silverpien indicate that the Forsaken are turning the tide and winning, but it was going to be very costly for both sides, so Sylvannas does the kidnapping to force Crowly to retreat instead of fighting to the death. And there were no kings involved in that. Varian and Genn were both not there.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  4. #144
    The Insane GennGreymane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    I don't know. Where was you King's spine when the only thing stopping the Gilneans from pushing the Forsaken all the way back to Brill was a lame kidnapping plot?

    Seriously, you kicked the Horde's ass so hard (and I played both sides) in Gilneas, my worgen would have committed regicide if she found out why they retreated in the end. You king treats your people and land like so much fodder for his precious daughter. He's scum, unworthy of his crown.
    hey! crowley does not have my crown!
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  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    Actually this is false, the 'Alliance' was just not simply prepared for the Horde, but the Horde was prepared for Alliance. Hell there was not even an Alliance until the Horde came, the Alliance kingdoms were basically arguing with each other before they came. But i do not think they were outnumbered, just simply surprised.
    Overpowered then.

    But most what I've read indicates that the orcs seemed to keep pouring through the Dark Portal. They didn't exactly have a shortage of "soldiers" to raze Stormwind to the ground. And in Warcraft, Stormwind was basically the equivalent of "The Alliance" just as the Horde was just orcs at the time.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2013-04-03 at 04:24 AM.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Overpowered then.

    But most what I've read indicates that the orcs seemed to keep pouring through the Dark Portal. They didn't exactly have a shortage of "soldiers" to raze Stormwind to the ground. And in Warcraft, Stormwind was basically the equivalent of "The Alliance" just as the Horde was just orcs at the time.
    Well, Stormwind was not prepared at all for WC 1's events. But Lothar got to Lordaeron in time and the Alliance formed to meet the Horde in combat. Unfortunately, Silvermoon and I think Gilneas were stingy with the troops until later in the war, allowing the orcs to get off to a good start, instead of stopping them right away. (Which if the full might of Quel'thelas had been mobilized instead of a token force they likely would have been.)
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  7. #147
    Yes, but even amidst all that, the Horde ran through Kaz Modan, hit Arathi, Kul Tiras, and managed to press into Lordaeron and even over into Quel'thalas before the Alliance managed to gain momentum in pushing them back.

    And it's questionable if the Alliance would have pulled through at all if not for the Horde splintering and collapsing from within.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  8. #148
    Immortal apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Well, Stormwind was not prepared at all for WC 1's events. But Lothar got to Lordaeron in time and the Alliance formed to meet the Horde in combat. Unfortunately, Silvermoon and I think Gilneas were stingy with the troops until later in the war, allowing the orcs to get off to a good start, instead of stopping them right away. (Which if the full might of Quel'thelas had been mobilized instead of a token force they likely would have been.)
    Actually now that I think about it the Horde might have had more Warriors because they did make most of their young older via warlocks, so we might have had more warriors but they were very unskilled. Though most of the Alliance would have been too so...

    Though now it would mean the old is filled with a lot of old people and has a big age gap. Though I would not be surprised if Garrosh ends up doing this again...
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Yes, but even amidst all that, the Horde ran through Kaz Modan, hit Arathi, Kul Tiras, and managed to press into Lordaeron and even over into Quel'thalas before the Alliance managed to gain momentum in pushing them back.

    And it's questionable if the Alliance would have pulled through at all if not for the Horde splintering and collapsing from within.
    If not for Gul'dan's betrayal, they would have almost certainly won. But if not for Perenold's betrayal they wouldn't have made it through those passes without heavy losses.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Warcraft has been a story about the misunderstood orcs and their trials since Warcraft III. Everything since then has been a plot device or a support for the Horde's story. I fell for the bait and switch expecting MoP was supposed to be the Alliance's expansion to shine, but nearing 5.3 I get the feeling it was another trick.

    Maybe a Legion expansion will put the draenei in the spotlight and the Alliance will have its time with Alleria and Turalyon returning, but with Blizzard kind of botching Alliance development (don't get me wrong, MoP is still far better for Alliance than Cata was), I'm not really sure.

    And no, despite fans claiming otherwise, the Horde have never been the underdogs. They outnumbered and decimated the Alliance in Warcraft, their infighting is the only reason the underdog Alliance had a comeback in Warcraft 2, and Warcraft 3 was on rather even footing. Going into WoW, the Horde may have been underdogs in Classic, but from BC onward they have most definitely not been the underdogs.
    This is total nonsense, you do not get an expansion where each faction gets to "shine" or the story is more "focused" on them. The story just advances and each side ebbs and flows.

    And the Orcs were VERY much the underdogs in Warcraft III. The Horde was shattered, the Orcs were just a handful that managed to escape from internment camps and flee across the ocean. In fact they spent the whole game in retreat until Medivh convinced Thrall to fight the Legion in Hyjal, alongside the Night Elves. In the expansion they didn't even have a bloody role in the main plot, we got a solo RPG experience centered on local Kalimdor events instead!

    P.S. In response to your sig, the Alliance of Lordaeron was formed out of Azeroth (now called Stormwind - in exile as it did not at that time exist as a nation), Stromgarde, Kul Tiras, Gilneas, Dalaran and Alterac and eventually their allies in Quel'Thalas and Khaz Modan (notably the playable dwarves in WC2 are actually Wildhammer - well except maybe the Demo Squad which might be any clan) under the command of the King of Lordaeron. After WC3 the Alliance of Lordaeron was destroyed - the nation of Lordaeron was annihilated by the Scourge, Dalaran was destroyed (eventually rebuilt but was neutral until just recently), Kul Tiras and Gilneas dropped off the face of the earth (until Gilneas rejoined the Alliance in Cata) and Alterac betrayed the Alliance and was obliterated. Stromgarde somehow got itself wiped out by Ogres and thieves.

    The new Alliance - the "Alliance of Stormwind" I suppose - was formed years later by a rebuilt Stormwind. It was under the Kings of Stormwind, a totally different dynasty to the Kings of Lordaeron. Not to mention on the other side of the continent. At WoW release none of the other six core human nations of the old Alliance were allied with it. Quel'thalas was MIA until BC when it declared itself for the Horde. The Dwarves and Gnomes of Ironforge declared themselves for the new Alliance but the Wildhammer dwarves weren't a part of it until Cata, so that's only a third of the Dwarves (to be fair I don't know whose side the Dark Irons were on in WC2 or if they just stayed in their mountain).

    So I think it's demonstrably a completely different political entity. The only link is the nation of Stormwind which didn't exist at the time of the Alliance and some of Khaz Modan. And now Gilneas as it's back in the fold. It's more like the old Alliance now than it was at WoW release, but still.

    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    Actually this is false, the 'Alliance' was just not simply prepared for the Horde, but the Horde was prepared for Alliance. Hell there was not even an Alliance until the Horde came, the Alliance kingdoms were basically arguing with each other before they came. But i do not think they were outnumbered, just simply surprised.
    We don't know what their relative numbers were (unless some non canon RPG book gives those figures), but we do know that Stormwind and Lordaeron were much less militarised than the Horde and the Horde's military push of course was highly successful. At least until the tide turned at Lordaeron City.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Well, Stormwind was not prepared at all for WC 1's events. But Lothar got to Lordaeron in time and the Alliance formed to meet the Horde in combat. Unfortunately, Silvermoon and I think Gilneas were stingy with the troops until later in the war, allowing the orcs to get off to a good start, instead of stopping them right away. (Which if the full might of Quel'thelas had been mobilized instead of a token force they likely would have been.)
    Mmm, Silvermoon didn't really have a massive military at the time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-03 at 05:09 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    If not for Gul'dan's betrayal, they would have almost certainly won. But if not for Perenold's betrayal they wouldn't have made it through those passes without heavy losses.
    Both betrayals of course were necessary so you could play at least one story mission as Horde vs Horde and Alliance vs Alliance
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  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    This is total nonsense, you do not get an expansion where each faction gets to "shine" or the story is more "focused" on them. The story just advances and each side ebbs and flows.

    And the Orcs were VERY much the underdogs in Warcraft III. The Horde was shattered, the Orcs were just a handful that managed to escape from internment camps and flee across the ocean. In fact they spent the whole game in retreat until Medivh convinced Thrall to fight the Legion in Hyjal, alongside the Night Elves. In the expansion they didn't even have a bloody role in the main plot, we got a solo RPG experience centered on local Kalimdor events instead!

    P.S. In response to your sig, the Alliance of Lordaeron was formed out of Azeroth (now called Stormwind - in exile as it did not at that time exist as a nation), Stromgarde, Kul Tiras, Gilneas, Dalaran and Alterac and eventually their allies in Quel'Thalas and Khaz Modan (notably the playable dwarves in WC2 are actually Wildhammer - well except maybe the Demo Squad which might be any clan) under the command of the King of Lordaeron. After WC3 the Alliance of Lordaeron was destroyed - the nation of Lordaeron was annihilated by the Scourge, Dalaran was destroyed (eventually rebuilt but was neutral until just recently), Kul Tiras and Gilneas dropped off the face of the earth (until Gilneas rejoined the Alliance in Cata) and Alterac betrayed the Alliance and was obliterated. Stromgarde somehow got itself wiped out by Ogres and thieves.

    The new Alliance - the "Alliance of Stormwind" I suppose - was formed years later by a rebuilt Stormwind. It was under the Kings of Stormwind, a totally different dynasty to the Kings of Lordaeron. Not to mention on the other side of the continent. At WoW release none of the other six core human nations of the old Alliance were allied with it. Quel'thalas was MIA until BC when it declared itself for the Horde. The Dwarves and Gnomes of Ironforge declared themselves for the new Alliance but the Wildhammer dwarves weren't a part of it until Cata, so that's only a third of the Dwarves (to be fair I don't know whose side the Dark Irons were on in WC2 or if they just stayed in their mountain).

    So I think it's demonstrably a completely different political entity. The only link is the nation of Stormwind which didn't exist at the time of the Alliance and some of Khaz Modan. And now Gilneas as it's back in the fold. It's more like the old Alliance now than it was at WoW release, but still.



    We don't know what their relative numbers were (unless some non canon RPG book gives those figures), but we do know that Stormwind and Lordaeron were much less militarised than the Horde and the Horde's military push of course was highly successful. At least until the tide turned at Lordaeron City.



    Mmm, Silvermoon didn't really have a massive military at the time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-03 at 05:09 AM ----------



    Both betrayals of course were necessary so you could play at least one story mission as Horde vs Horde and Alliance vs Alliance
    Silvermoon certainly had some sort of military to deal with the forest trolls. And even if it wasn't huge they certainly had a lot more than the token force sent to fulfill their oath to Lothar's ancestor.

    As for the alliances, I know of no lore that suggests the old alliance disbanded and an entirely new one formed. From my perspective it seems more like the surviving members of the alliance of lordaeron, Ironforge and Stormwind, both of which never left even if SW didn't fight in WC 3 due to Onyxia and rebuilding, taking up the reigns and inviting new allies as time went on. It seems to me more like an evolution rather than one breaking and a whole new one forming.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  12. #152
    The problem is, Blizzard is going a bit crasy on the scale of the orcs. Since Garrosh have the support of all the young orcs, the ones who never where slaves under the burning leigion, not captured by the alliance. And some how This fraction of the orcs, are some how stronger then the rest of the hordes....
    So beside the fact, there is really not THAT many orcs who really can support garrosh, i mean fine, lets say all orcs support garrosh. That still leaves the troll, tauren, undead, goblines and blood elf. Okay 2-3 of thise are very few in numbers, The trolls, are only a small part of the "real" evil trolls, the taurens was being wiped out by centaure in warcraft craft, and goblines, all the goblines where the ones who could fit on a boat. But that still leaves a blooming blood elf race and a stronger then ever forsagen.

    But it all comes down to, Hey The Alliance also want a peace of Garrosh, and the horde is fighting itself so it's need help. Just be happy Jaina do not go all "tides of War" on ya ass'es
    (i am 19 and dyslexic so yes i suck at spelling)

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by ragemv View Post
    The problem is, Blizzard is going a bit crasy on the scale of the orcs. Since Garrosh have the support of all the young orcs, the ones who never where slaves under the burning leigion, not captured by the alliance. And some how This fraction of the orcs, are some how stronger then the rest of the hordes....
    So beside the fact, there is really not THAT many orcs who really can support garrosh, i mean fine, lets say all orcs support garrosh. That still leaves the troll, tauren, undead, goblines and blood elf. Okay 2-3 of thise are very few in numbers, The trolls, are only a small part of the "real" evil trolls, the taurens was being wiped out by centaure in warcraft craft, and goblines, all the goblines where the ones who could fit on a boat. But that still leaves a blooming blood elf race and a stronger then ever forsagen.

    But it all comes down to, Hey The Alliance also want a peace of Garrosh, and the horde is fighting itself so it's need help. Just be happy Jaina do not go all "tides of War" on ya ass'es
    Whatever you do, DO NOT THINK ABOUT POPULATIONS LOGICALLY. You will go stark raving mad. There should only be as many orcs and trolls in the Horde as can fit in 3 sailing boats, plus one extra generation of young adults. That is to say, the population of Org should be roughly that of Goldshire.

    My only explanation is both sides have the instant unit production and infinite resources cheat codes.

  14. #154
    Immortal apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    Whatever you do, DO NOT THINK ABOUT POPULATIONS LOGICALLY. You will go stark raving mad. There should only be as many orcs and trolls in the Horde as can fit in 3 sailing boats, plus one extra generation of young adults. That is to say, the population of Org should be roughly that of Goldshire.

    My only explanation is both sides have the instant unit production and infinite resources cheat codes.
    I have thought that Undead in horde has the largest population because they can not really die....Orcs then should the most populous but I think they will be quite smaller after this. But really I think every race has low numbers if you think about it.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    Whatever you do, DO NOT THINK ABOUT POPULATIONS LOGICALLY. You will go stark raving mad. There should only be as many orcs and trolls in the Horde as can fit in 3 sailing boats, plus one extra generation of young adults. That is to say, the population of Org should be roughly that of Goldshire.

    My only explanation is both sides have the instant unit production and infinite resources cheat codes.
    If i remember correctly blizzard retconned all the various races populations in some blue posts, with Nelf and Belf being at the top and forsakens being the lower but it was way back and numbers may have changed especially after soo many year (in lore) have passed.
    How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

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