Girl 14 raped on bus.

[Deleted]

I'll probably regret replying to this thread. Probably get infracted, called a sick fuck, called a rape enabler, a rapist etc but here goes.

There's a difference between blaming a girl for getting raped, and pointing out that maybe it could have been prevented. The blame is squarely on the rapists, they committed the crime, without them there is no rape.

But there comes a point where you have to wonder about the actions of the girl and whether avoiding them would stop the rape from happening. In an ideal world with no crime feel free to leave your friend on the crowded downstairs of the bus to go chill with two older guys upstairs. In this world where there are rapists, murderers, gangs, thieves and generally bad people around, I don't understand why you'd take the chance. In Glasgow I'm sure she has exposure to news (Papers, TV) so surely the knowledge is there that there are bad people.

Not saying it's her fault, but I am saying there are ways she could have avoided having to deal with getting raped.

[Felya]

nope. Wouldn't assume that would be a thing to be infracted apon aslong as the general post was constructive. I would assume that the person doing said acts would receive an infacture first.

Yeah, you can get infract for insulting people, even if the rest is constructive. I have never reported anyone and will never do. But, for the sake of the thread and the fact that the insults simply make you look bad, just don't do it. Mods have been posting here. It shouldn't be hard to remove insults and leave something constructive.

[Kasierith]

I am not trying to prove they are inherently dangerous. Not in the least. I am merely stating that the what causes it to become dangerous is going to it alone with two strangers out of the sight of people who were able to help and protect her.

But she was in a situation where the standard expectation was that she was safe, while personally lacking the life experience (see age 14) to be held accountable for not recognizing that the ordinarily safe situation was no longer safe.

I think you're using the wrong wording when you say 'social norms'. I think what you're meaning to say is "You have yet to prove that being raped on the top level of a bus is a reasonable fear that would warrant avoiding such an area."

That would be more accurate, yes. Posting when sleepy seems to do me little good.

[Felya]

I am not trying to prove they are inherently dangerous. Not in the least. I am merely stating that the what causes it to become dangerous is going to it alone with two strangers out of the sight of people who were able to help and protect her.

Again, this was not a bus full of deaf. It's a public bus and we have more senses than sight. You know this, because you keep downplaying the length they ad to go to keep her quiet.

[Zantos]

But she was in a situation where the standard expectation was that she was safe, while personally lacking the life experience (see age 14) to be held accountable for not recognizing that the ordinarily safe situation was no longer safe.



That would be more accurate, yes. Posting when sleepy seems to do me little good.

I can't say I have ever heard of the standard expectation of being alone where someone can't see you with two strangers would be that its safe. Being alone with two strangers in that situation where not even the driver can see them is not safe nor can ever be considered safe. Especially for a lone girl late at night.

Again, this was not a bus full of deaf. It's a public bus and we have more senses than sight. You know this, because you keep downplaying the length they ad to go to keep her quiet.

I am not downplaying anything at all. It is simply that she provided the opportunity by going upstairs alone with them for them to be able hold her down and keep her mouth covered with their hands. They would not have been able to do so had she remained in sight of the rest of the passengers, her friend, and the bus driver. They did have to go through great lengths, but they had the opportunity to do so without being to worried about being noticed.

[Deleted]

why is a 14 year old girl out at 00:30 at night anyway?

[Kasierith]

I can't say I have ever heard of the standard expectation of being alone where someone can't see you with two strangers would be that its safe. Being alone with two strangers in that situation where not even the driver can see them is not safe nor can ever be considered safe. Especially for a lone girl late at night.

You're adding specifics to the setting in attempt to make the abnormal a normal event. Unless you can assert that the two strangers in the top of the bus that also happen to be an eminent threat is the norm, your statement is not applicable.

[Deleted]

I can't say I have ever heard of the standard expectation of being alone where someone can't see you with two strangers would be that its safe. Being alone with two strangers in that situation where not even the driver can see them is not safe nor can ever be considered safe. Especially for a lone girl late at night.

The driver is a stranger, a priori. And had her friend not been there at all, the lower floor would be full of strangers too, making her choice to be alone at the top much safer.
Maybe everybody in the lower deck were rapists too!
Unless you think that you can identify rapists by their looks. If you do, you totally should write a guide about it.

---------- Post added 2013-04-03 at 07:18 AM ----------

why is a 14 year old girl out at 00:30 at night anyway?

Are you kidding me?
Don't know how Scotland is, in Spain 14 y.o. people go out till 1-2am.
And NOTHING happens.

[Zantos]

The driver is a stranger, a priori. And had her friend not been there at all, the lower floor would be full of strangers too, making her choice to be alone at the top much safer.
Maybe everybody in the lower deck were rapists too!
Unless you think that you can identify rapists by their looks. If you do, you totally should write a guide about it.

Bus drivers are usually safe. They go through background checks. There is also the fact that most buses have security cameras in place to watch over the whole bus. The police said they were unable to get footage, implying the bus did have a camera for at least the buttom layer.

---------- Post added 2013-04-03 at 03:21 AM ----------

You're adding specifics to the setting in attempt to make the abnormal a normal event. Unless you can assert that the two strangers in the top of the bus that also happen to be an eminent threat is the norm, your statement is not applicable.

No. The norm is for a 14 year old to avoid going anywhere alone with strangers. Most kids are told from a young age that they should never talk to strangers, nor go anywhere alone with them. It was late at night. Given the time of day, the location, and the fact she didn't know them and left her friend to go with them, it wasn't normal at all what she did.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

No. The norm is for a 14 year old to avoid going anywhere alone with strangers. Most kids are told from a young age that they should never talk to strangers, nor go anywhere alone with them. It was late at night. Given the time of day, the location, and the fact she didn't know them and left her friend to go with them, it wasn't normal at all what she did.

This is a failed argument because it's reversed. You're attempting to point out the abnormality of the girl's actions when the focus should not be on whether her actions were abnormal, but whether there is a reasonable fear of being raped on a bus. If there is not, it doesn't matter how abnormal her actions are, as that doesn't specifically mean anything.

[vetinari]

You're adding specifics to the setting in attempt to make the abnormal a normal event. Unless you can assert that the two strangers in the top of the bus that also happen to be an eminent threat is the norm, your statement is not applicable.

"Alone in the dark, with no friends in sight".

That is the dangerous situation. It doesn't matter whether its on a double decker bus, an alley, a stranger's house, a park or forest. Are you guaranteed to be raped/assaulted/murdered when in such a place? No. But then, you aren't guaranteed to die from playing russian roulette either.

[Zantos]

This is a failed argument because it's reversed. You're attempting to point out the abnormality of the girl's actions when the focus should not be on whether her actions were abnormal, but whether there is a reasonable fear of being raped on a bus. If there is not, it doesn't matter how abnormal her actions are, as that doesn't specifically mean anything.

Ok, maybe I should be more specific. A bus is generally a safe place. However, going to an isolated part of the bus late at night where no one can see you with two strangers isn't safe and shouldn't be viewed as safe. On a single layered bus, this wouldn't even be a fear. Its the fact that the bus had two tiers instead of just one. With the top tier providing a perfect place to be ensure no one would see anything.

[Deleted]

There's a difference between blaming a girl for getting raped, and pointing out that maybe it could have been prevented. The blame is squarely on the rapists, they committed the crime, without them there is no rape.

You are technically correct. The problem with this line of thinking is that it gives the victims the impression that they had the power to stop rape from happening, increasing their shame and making more rapes go unreported. So laying responsibility on the victim to avoid "bad places" actually makes the rape problem worse, by increasing the impunity of the rapists.

What you say goes in line with rapes as a crime of opportunity. But not when rapes are planned through stalking. Also, if the rapist sees a person they want to victimize but the opportunity doesn't appear, they often switch to stalking right after. So even if the girl had not gone upstairs with them, as soon as she was seen, she was already marked as a victim.

[Mavecryst]

Actually I'm confused now. Are some of you saying that she wasn't raped, but rather it was statutory rape (i.e. she was willing albeit underage)? Are there any further reports on this case?

Edit: Just reread the article linked.. Seems like an actual rape case, really, unless you can verify that she was lying about being scared and traumatised..

[Sorrior]

Yeah modern society sucks, the past was much better. When instead of sitting meekly, the men around it would give an approving nod/cheer the rapist on/join the rape, and the women would look at the victim as if she was to blame, because "she was asking for it".

Sure assume all men would join..MANY men would probably kill the rapists instead...Not all men are natural born rapists ya know.

---------- Post added 2013-04-03 at 07:59 AM ----------

So like, I think the main message we can take from this thread is that buses are a bad influence on people and we should discontinue their use to better our society. They're turning all of our nice young men into violent rapists and thugs.

LOL ok best post here.

And damn has this ever devolved i swear.

---------- Post added 2013-04-03 at 08:03 AM ----------

That's the only assumption that can be drawn when a girl is blamed for doing a fairly routine and normal activity. Either A) it was a normally safe setting with normal actions on her impeded on by those operating outside the bounds of society, or B) busses are a horrible rapey place and she should have known better than to step on board.

No the ONLY possible bad choice she made was to go upstairs alone....And since those who say things like i am have to deal with an army of hornets i'll say it now. NO it should NOT have happened. However this isn't some modern fairytale(ironically in an oldschool one she probably woulda been raped as some kinda curse or some such they were messed up...) but it happened and it could happen. She went into an even relatively isolated place ALONE LATE...

Again merely saying bad choices were made and it never should have happened but it did....And i do NOT blame her i merely say she made some bad choices...Again those guys should probably be killed or castrated but still.

---------- Post added 2013-04-03 at 08:04 AM ----------

So if a 14 year old girl gets on a bus and sits on a different level to her friend, that's totally asking to get raped?[COLOR="red"]

---------- Post added 2013-04-03 at 06:31 AM ----------

OF COURSE NOT...However it DOES increase the odds i'm sorry to say.

---------- Post added 2013-04-03 at 08:08 AM ----------

I'll probably regret replying to this thread. Probably get infracted, called a sick fuck, called a rape enabler, a rapist etc but here goes.

There's a difference between blaming a girl for getting raped, and pointing out that maybe it could have been prevented. The blame is squarely on the rapists, they committed the crime, without them there is no rape.

But there comes a point where you have to wonder about the actions of the girl and whether avoiding them would stop the rape from happening. In an ideal world with no crime feel free to leave your friend on the crowded downstairs of the bus to go chill with two older guys upstairs. In this world where there are rapists, murderers, gangs, thieves and generally bad people around, I don't understand why you'd take the chance. In Glasgow I'm sure she has exposure to news (Papers, TV) so surely the knowledge is there that there are bad people.

Not saying it's her fault, but I am saying there are ways she could have avoided having to deal with getting raped.

No man alot of us think like you..

---------- Post added 2013-04-03 at 08:10 AM ----------

This is a failed argument because it's reversed. You're attempting to point out the abnormality of the girl's actions when the focus should not be on whether her actions were abnormal, but whether there is a reasonable fear of being raped on a bus. If there is not, it doesn't matter how abnormal her actions are, as that doesn't specifically mean anything.

And there shouldn;t be..But on a seperate level alone late at night...It is sadly something that quite obviously can happen...

[Deleted]

Sure assume all men would join..MANY men would probably kill the rapists instead...Not all men are natural born rapists ya know.

Not natural. I said in "the past". When culture encourages it through impunity, most men will be rapists. Even if there were laws against rape, they mostly referred to highborn women, and such laws were enforced only when it was politically convenient. Rape of the nobles/burgeois against commoners, or among commoners, went unpunished.

[Sorrior]

Not natural. I said in "the past". When culture encourages it through impunity, most men will be rapists. Even if there were laws against rape, they mostly referred to highborn women, and such laws were enforced only when it was politically convenient. Rape of the nobles/burgeois against commoners, or among commoners, went unpunished.

No i got that..I was just saying to some people no matter the time it IS an incredibly messed up crime.

[Venziir]

Nice try; but they were both native Scots. Scotland doesn't have the same immigration woes that Britain has, 98% of our population are white. Bit peculiar really, Scotland doesn't really seem to get many immigrants, those who do are pretty well integrated culturally however.

I'm guessing it's got to do with the shite weather and the location :P

[Deleted]

No i got that..I was just saying to some people no matter the time it IS an incredibly messed up crime.

It's impossible for me to know what i would think, or what i could be capable of doing if i had been born and raised under very different circumstances.
I have quite a high empathy, but historically many heinous criminals have been able to "work around" that "problem".

In short, i'm quite happy to have been born in the time and place i was.

[Awbee]

In this thread:

999 comments saying: "What an irresponsible girl! Why didn't her parents teach her to be more careful and that you shouldn't drive the bus after dark!"

Not a single comment saying: "Why didn't the rapists' parents teach them to be decent human beings and that you shouldn't rape people?"


This is victim-blaming at its finest. Rape is being seen as a "force of nature", something that just can't possibly be prevented. Boys will be boys. Men are just terrible cavemen, and women need to know that and act accordingly. If a man rapes a woman, it's because he just can't control himself, and she was provoking it. In some strict Islamic countries, if a woman walks around without being covered from head to toe, she was asking for it. She's to blame, at least as much as her rapist.

... do you guys notice how wrong this is?