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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Then you've been lucky and yet to have one of those awfully dreadful RNG pulls.

    Trust me, they happen. If log didn't get deleted, I'd dig to find one. Hasn't happened in ToT yet, but it definitely has in T14.
    If logs dident get deleted you could try and dig up mines as well they are open.. and i was fire until the nerf 1 week into 5.1, after the nerf, yes rng would make you middle of the pack, and good rng would put me in top 1-5(rare)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyliria View Post
    I'll just leave this here.

    Just running a quick simcraft for DPS on my profile (fire) and yours (frost was the active one), over 100k iterations each, you can see that:
    Please read the context in witch we are posting.. we are talking 5.0. I am frost right now cause we are progressing on horridon hc, and i got really really tired of that fucking pink dino.

    As for simcraft.. its been well know throughout mop(5.0-5.1 and again here in 5.2) that a proper firemage will do consistently better dps than the simcraft. Simcraft as far as i know does not use hs+hu either.

    I know if your undergeared it can be rng. but thats not the point you should not be undergeared.. If you still feel like fire is Rng, your either undergeared or playing it wrong, cause i am not seeing it. Combustion is such a little part of our dps, that improving on other things such as bomb snapshots and other things such as movement, ignite/pyro spread, when to use hs+hu and when not to etc etc, will make a bigger impact. Another thing that will make a bigger impact on your dps than "rng" is boss mechanics.


    But hey this discussion is not new, ive had similar ones during 5.0 where people also claimed rng, and i dont know why cause i am not really seeing it, sure there is small swings but nothing like you claim. But at the same time most people during 5.0 was not taking elpadrino's hs+hu findings important to the point where even EJ disregarded it, and infracted me for false info(lol). So it was not strange that people called Rng when they effectively missed out on ~25% hs's.

  2. #202
    The Patient
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    I currently asked my raidlead if I can go /sticky during trash so that I get at least one proc in the boss fight.

  3. #203
    I am Murloc! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    But hey this discussion is not new, ive had similar ones during 5.0 where people also claimed rng, and i dont know why cause i am not really seeing it, sure there is small swings but nothing like you claim. But at the same time most people during 5.0 was not taking elpadrino's hs+hu findings important to the point where even EJ disregarded it, and infracted me for false info(lol). So it was not strange that people called Rng when they effectively missed out on ~25% hs's.
    I could post my logs for Durumu one night where I was dominating the entire night on him and then the one time we actually killed him, I ended up last.

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  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    As for simcraft.. its been well know throughout mop(5.0-5.1 and again here in 5.2) that a proper firemage will do consistently better dps than the simcraft. Simcraft as far as i know does not use hs+hu either.
    I dont know what your post says because I stopped at this sentece. Simcraft is not what you think it is. Its not a system that spits out relative DPS ranking accross the board. Since it is an amalgamation of different models, each spec will be completely different accuracy. Don't use it to rank classes for expected DPS or that its output reflects the max "theoretical dps".

    It's best used as a tool to measure relative gearing differences within a single spec. I would even caution against using to compare within a single class, especially mages. If you want to know stat weights and relative upgrades within a single spec then its a good resource. If you want to know which class does the most DPS then its terrible. Its not at all realistic since it excludes boss mechanics. Anyone who claims "Simcraft says Firemage A should do 120k DPS and he did 110k DPS that means he is bad" is flat our wrong. It has no predictive value of DPS really beyond stat scaling values.

  5. #205
    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 41m

    @Polarthief We think there might be a problem with Fire's gem in particular.

    Looks like they are aware of the issue according to GC on twitter.
    Last edited by Whardy; 2013-04-22 at 08:10 PM.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I could post my logs for Durumu one night where I was dominating the entire night on him and then the one time we actually killed him, I ended up last.
    Again your undergeared or doing something wrong....

    Quote Originally Posted by Proakryt View Post
    I dont know what your post says because I stopped at this sentece. -Snip
    Did you read the context i was posting in ? some one used simcraft to compare rng between frost and fire etc. i was saying he should not rely on simcraft.... and pointing out the flaws using it.

    Ill stop here this is not the place to discuss this, and really i dont wanna discuss it, tried that during 5.0 and it was the same thing. claim rng as much as you want, always nice to have something to blame for bad perfomance. I will still argue that my personal sample size by now this long into expansion is enough(11hours/week 99% attendance.)

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Whardy View Post
    Looks like they are aware of the issue according to GC on twitter.
    How is it an issue when its proccing as much as they decided to be good(refering to the 0.3 multiplier here). It's more like a mistake if they are considering something to be wrong..

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    Snip
    I apologize for taking that out of context. At the same time the dps output of simcraft is just an arbitrary number; it has really no real use besides comparisons with other simcraft results of the same class/spec. Saying that "proper" mages should do more DPS than simcraft results is like saying a feather and rock should fall at the same rate on earth because gravity is the same. It ignores all other variables.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Proakryt View Post
    I apologize for taking that out of context. At the same time the dps output of simcraft is just an arbitrary number; it has really no real use besides comparisons with other simcraft results of the same class/spec. Saying that "proper" mages should do more DPS than simcraft results is like saying a feather and rock should fall at the same rate on earth because gravity is the same. It ignores all other variables.
    I said that because during 5.0 fire mages was doing way more dps than simcraft was telling us(simc said ~90k, we did 110 easy). i used it as an argument for how flawed simC can be. The reason for this was among other things that it used combustion with a 10k ignite, and in game we used it at 50-60k+(early 5.0, later we got 100k+)

  10. #210
    It's gettin buffed, don't worry about it

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Somaa View Post
    It's gettin buffed, don't worry about it
    Source Please

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Proakryt View Post
    Source Please
    Trust my friend TRUST is the source!

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    I said that because during 5.0 fire mages was doing way more dps than simcraft was telling us(simc said ~90k, we did 110 easy). i used it as an argument for how flawed simC can be. The reason for this was among other things that it used combustion with a 10k ignite, and in game we used it at 50-60k+(early 5.0, later we got 100k+)
    The takeaway from that is that simcraft is wrong, not that mages "should" perform higher than it. My argument is that there is no point comparing any aspect of simcraft dps to in-game dps. They live in two different worlds entirely. The only valuable data from simcraft is stat weighting really.
    Last edited by Proakryt; 2013-04-22 at 10:17 PM.

  14. #214
    I am Murloc! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    Again your undergeared or doing something wrong....
    This is getting annoying. Please stop.

    Do you not understand what "Luck" and "RNG" is? It's very VERY rare, but there are those outliers when you get 0 crits or 100% crit, regardless of your crit rating (unless it's 0 or 100, then it's a given). Even if your crit is 5%, you could get 100% crit rate, or if your crit is 95% crit, you can get 0% crit. It's HIHGLY UNLIKELY, BUT IT CAN STILL HAPPEN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Somaa View Post
    It's gettin buffed, don't worry about it
    That is NOT what he said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proakryt View Post
    Source Please
    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...16790991273984 is the source to my tweet to GC (Yes, "Polarthief" is me, if the icon wasn't obvious enough [Please don't follow me, you won't be happy if you do >_>]), but he didn't say it's going to be buffed. He did say there's a problem at least though, so I'm glad he's well aware.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 06:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    I said that because during 5.0 fire mages was doing way more dps than simcraft was telling us(simc said ~90k, we did 110 easy). i used it as an argument for how flawed simC can be. The reason for this was among other things that it used combustion with a 10k ignite, and in game we used it at 50-60k+(early 5.0, later we got 100k+)
    Correct reasoning as to why SimC is wrong: They overvalue L90 talents. That's why Arcane is #1 for us, and as we know, unless you're in a 25m guild and allowed to stand still for a whole fight, you'll NEVER outDPS Fire or Frost.

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  15. #215
    Fire depends on crits to actually use our highest damage ability, pyroblast, in any efficient way. Frost just gets bonus damage from crits becuase its mechanics function independent of crit/hit rolls (frost relies on proc rates of BF and FoF but that is not controlable). I dont want to discuss normal distributions but suffice it to say that since spell crits are independent events you will experience a more or less normal distribution of total fight crit rates with the mean being your character sheet crit rate(assuming infinite iterations).

    Even your 11 hours a week/99% attendance numbers are anecdotal at best. Dragon has a tendency to overstate things but he has the right idea about fire damage. It is entirely possible to have 0 crits for an entire encounter; its also possible to have 100% crit chance. Just because you don't see it happen doesn't mean it won't or can't. Fire DPS is entirely dependent on crit rates for our rotation so yes RNG luck will cause it to fluctuate more than frost. Its the nature of the beast. Fire has higher potential DPS but frost has more consistent damage. Scaling aside.
    Last edited by Proakryt; 2013-04-22 at 10:39 PM.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Breakee View Post
    Yeah , I guess that's why moonkins get 10 times our uptime on the meta gem , even though they benefit from haste more than we do.
    GG blizz. At least try to be honest and say you suck at balancing.
    1. we dont get 10x your uptime we get around 44%

    2. we get such a higher uptime because we gcd haste cap so easily so only spells like starfire and our dots end up benefiting the proc when we have natures grace up. haste past gcd haste cap drops severely in value.

    3. the way to get people to listen is to say why yours is broken to you not point out what other people have. especially when you don't take into account all the data.

  17. #217
    I am Murloc! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proakryt View Post
    I dont want to discuss normal distributions but suffice it to say that since spell crits are independent events you will experience a more or less normal distribution of crit rates with the mean being your character sheet crit rate. A longer fights will have smaller standard deviations since in the long run (infinite time) you will achieve your "theoretical" crit rate. Even your 11 hours a week/99% attendance numbers are anecdotal at best. Dragon has a tendency to overstate things but

    If you dont understand RNG its effects please do some reading. It is entirely possible to have 0 crits for an entire encounter; its also possible to have 100% chance. Just because you don't see it happen doesn't mean it won't or can't. Fire DPS is entirely dependent on crit rates for our rotation so yes RNG luck will cause it to fluctuate more than frost. Its the nature of the beast. Fire has higher potential DPS but frost has more consistent damage. Scaling aside.
    I definitely won't deny that I tend to over-exaggerate things. Probably one of my worst tendencies is trying to use the right fucking words for what my brain is TRYING to say but always fail to do so; I apologize for that! XD (Note: After typing this, I had to edit it because I can't even read wtf I was trying to say >_>)

    That being said, yes, it's entirely possible, and yes, I HAVE experienced it a few times in my 5ish years of being a Mage (Since 2.4.3!).

    Anyone who says otherwise is flat out wrong and hasn't played Fire long enough, especially around the beginning of an expansion (or is just incredibly lucky and never gets those outliers).

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  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by dark666105 View Post
    1. we dont get 10x your uptime we get around 44%

    2. we get such a higher uptime because we gcd haste cap so easily so only spells like starfire and our dots end up benefiting the proc when we have natures grace up. haste past gcd haste cap drops severely in value.

    3. the way to get people to listen is to say why yours is broken to you not point out what other people have. especially when you don't take into account all the data.
    1. Ok 5 times.
    2. No, fire mages have higher damage than moonkins so they gave you a better rate to balance out dps.
    3. We have to compare to someone. We are not advocating for you to be nerfed but when we see a class get 5x the benefit of the same item we are going to say something.

    Also I edit my posts all the time Dragon, sometimes it takes a few iterations to communicate the message you want. I mean I already edited mine from when you quoted it. The message is cohesive; it just reads better.

  19. #219
    I am Murloc! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dark666105 View Post
    We get such a higher uptime because we gcd haste cap so easily---
    "We haste cap so easily, so we get a higher uptime on further haste".

    Do you realize how foolish that sounds?

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  20. #220
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    "We haste cap so easily, so we get a higher uptime on further haste".

    Do you realize how foolish that sounds?
    They haste cap so easily that they need higher uptime on something that's only really benefitting half their damage past that point. It does make sense, yes.

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