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  1. #61
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    The best part is when you have to seriously think about if you actually even want to use a "Legendary" meta gem over its normal counterpart when it's released. I mean... why even give it to fire mages at that point? Seems like a terrible way to balance a spec if that's what they're after.
    ^

    Worst way to balance a class ever.

    What's funnier is that NO OTHER LEGENDARY works like that. They're all the same RPPM across the board.

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  2. #62
    A longer, more controlled test might be a good idea.

    Try spec'ing fire and spamming scorch into a dummy for 20-30+ mins and post your log here (shouldn't need to execute a full rotation since RPPM isn't affected much by how often you cast). I can compare your results against what SimC predicts for whatever duration you decide to test, both with a 1.00 coefficient and a 0.302 coefficient.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    A longer, more controlled test might be a good idea.

    Try spec'ing fire and spamming scorch into a dummy for 20-30+ mins and post your log here (shouldn't need to execute a full rotation since RPPM isn't affected much by how often you cast). I can compare your results against what SimC predicts for whatever duration you decide to test, both with a 1.00 coefficient and a 0.302 coefficient.
    20-30m? x.x;

    *Sighs* Gimme a bit on that one...

    Also, gonna use Frost Armor to basically give me a bit of extra haste (to make up for 5% spell haste buff)
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-04-20 at 03:04 AM.

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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    20-30m? x.x;
    The longer the better, unfortunately.

    Even 20-30 minutes might be low (translates into say 2-3 ~10 minute boss fights), as I imagine you're familiar with how RNG these RPPM effects are (e.g. from one boss to the next seeing uptimes of 10%, 20%, 15%, 40%, 25% for your meta/trinkets).

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    ^

    Worst way to balance a class ever.

    What's funnier is that NO OTHER LEGENDARY works like that. They're all the same RPPM across the board.
    Please look into the physical DPS gem.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    ^

    Worst way to balance a class ever.

    What's funnier is that NO OTHER LEGENDARY works like that. They're all the same RPPM across the board.
    Don't know what you've been looking at but,...:

    Capacitive Primal Diamond – 21.00 base RealPPM on landing melee/ranged abilities and swings. No ICD.
    - At 5 stacks, fires a Lightning Strike, which deals [280 + 75% AP] Nature damage. This is considered a ranged attack for Hunters, and a melee attack for everyone else.
    - Base proc rate is multiplied by an additional coefficient:
    1.136 Combat
    1.789 Assassination
    1.114 Subtlety
    1.339 Arms
    1.152 Fury SMF
    1.257 Fury TG
    1.721 Feral Cat
    1.532 Frost DK 2H
    1.134 Frost DK DW
    0.838 Unholy
    1.295 Retribution
    0.809 Enhancement
    1.087 Monkbot
    0.950 Beast Mastery
    1.107 Marksmanship
    0.950 Survival
    1.000 Anyone Else

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    The longer the better, unfortunately.

    Even 20-30 minutes might be low (translates into say 2-3 ~10 minute boss fights), as I imagine you're familiar with how RNG these RPPM effects are (e.g. from one boss to the next seeing uptimes of 10%, 20%, 15%, 40%, 25% for your meta/trinkets).
    Just did 20m, and my fingers can't take much more of spamming one spell DX

    Anyway, here's the 20m log

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/e...d54/details/0/

    Still super low. 9.3% (11 proccs).

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 11:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    <snip>
    Huh. They must have changed it when I wasn't looking.

    My bad on that one, but still. At the very least, NONE of those are super low. The lowest being Enhancement, and it's only at 0.8. Fire is at 0.3. That's quite a huge difference.

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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Huh. They must have changed it when I wasn't looking.
    It's always been like that. Anyways, that's mostly irrelevant. I do agree that the low coefficient for fire could lead to the legendary being marginally better than just the regular meta, which just doesn't feel right. I expect if that is the case, Blizzard will be open to changing it, given there is some proof of it being barely better/worse than the regular meta.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    It's always been like that. Anyways, that's mostly irrelevant. I do agree that the low coefficient for fire could lead to the legendary being marginally better than just the regular meta, which just doesn't feel right. I expect if that is the case, Blizzard will be open to changing it, given there is some proof of it being barely better/worse than the regular meta.
    The low procc should be proof enough, plus it greatly matters WHEN you get proccs. On streaks when you get no crits and/or when Combustion isn't ready, the procc won't mean nearly as much. Plus, all your IBs will be 3% weaker, in addition to ALL of your crits (which leads to weaker Ignites and Combustions on top of the damage itself).

    The legendary needs to be significantly high-proccing for Fire because we need our crits to be big. It's counter-intuitive to make it such a low coefficient for Fire and I'm shocked the Developers are so blind to this issue. It's obviously untested or non-calculated.

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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Just did 20m, and my fingers can't take much more of spamming one spell DX

    Anyway, here's the 20m log

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/e...d54/details/0/

    Still super low. 9.3% (11 proccs).

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 11:26 PM ----------



    Huh. They must have changed it when I wasn't looking.

    My bad on that one, but still. At the very least, NONE of those are super low. The lowest being Enhancement, and it's only at 0.8. Fire is at 0.3. That's quite a huge difference.
    For a 19:46 scorch-spamming fight against a target dummy, SimC pegs your theoretical meta gem uptime at ~8% with a 0.302 coefficient (~10% uptime in simulated raid combat), so I think it's pretty safe to say that the hotfix is live (especially when combined with what I'm hearing from an elemental shaman on my RealID).

  11. #71
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    I was checking on my boomkin, and I got 43% uptime with 1 Wrath every 10 seconds (controlled test). Only a 20-minute log, but the PPM is indicative of the hotfix actually live.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/j...zvf/details/0/

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    For a 19:46 scorch-spamming fight against a target dummy, SimC pegs your theoretical meta gem uptime at ~8% with a 0.302 coefficient (~10% uptime in simulated raid combat), so I think it's pretty safe to say that the hotfix is live (especially when combined with what I'm hearing from an elemental shaman on my RealID).
    How do you figure 8% with .302? I'm trying to work out the math to compare the legendary with the regular meta for comparison, and I'm coming up with a 5.9% baseline uptime

    (1.18RPPM baseline * 0.302coeff), multiply by proc time, divide by 60 seconds. If I factor in my baseline 15.38% haste, it bumps up to 6.8%.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Eyliria View Post
    How do you figure 8% with .302? I'm trying to work out the math to compare the legendary with the regular meta for comparison, and I'm coming up with a 5.9% baseline uptime

    (1.18RPPM baseline * 0.302coeff), multiply by proc time, divide by 60 seconds. If I factor in my baseline 15.38% haste, it bumps up to 6.8%.
    Bad luck protection averages out to ~13.07% more procs for the infinite duration case, and there's also a high chance to proc at the start of an encounter on top of that, depending on how long you've stayed out of combat (basically +1 proc over what you'd ordinarily expect unless you're chain-pulling).
    Last edited by Nitwit; 2013-04-20 at 04:21 AM.

  14. #74
    Anyways, this sort of seals the deal, that only time you want the meta is when you can pop combustion in those first ~14 seconds with hero, which frankly is like 3-4 bosses in ToT depending how you do them. So I hope it gets buffed to around 12.5-15% uptime at least.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Anyways, this sort of seals the deal, that only time you want the meta is when you can pop combustion in those first ~14 seconds with hero, which frankly is like 3-4 bosses in ToT depending how you do them. So I hope it gets buffed to around 12.5-15% uptime at least.
    TBH I felt it was a tiny bit lacking even with the 20-30% uptime because it didn't line up too well.

    With this though... This is like the developers are literally mocking us with RNG.

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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    TBH I felt it was a tiny bit lacking even with the 20-30% uptime because it didn't line up too well.

    With this though... This is like the developers are literally mocking us with RNG.
    Are you implying that it should be balanced around being up for most of the combustions? If so, do you really believe that having that proc up for most of the combustions wouldn't make fire a little too strong?

    It just really seems that you're implying that it should be up for most, if not all combustions and I'm not quite sure if you've really thought it through with how much it would increase fires damage.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    TBH I felt it was a tiny bit lacking even with the 20-30% uptime because it didn't line up too well.

    With this though... This is like the developers are literally mocking us with RNG.
    You're going about the wrong argument for this.
    The point to be made is whether or not this is a big enough upgrade vs the current meta gem.

    To think that this should 'reliably' line up with combustion is insane. It's a plus when it does, but it shouldn't be expected.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    It just really seems that you're implying that it should be up for most, if not all combustions and I'm not quite sure if you've really thought it through with how much it would increase fires damage.
    This is my reaction as well. For a spec that has no real care for haste outside of combustion, having what amounts to 3/4 to a full extra heroism over the fight seems decent. To expect it up for every cooldown set is asking a lot. The ~10% uptime is already a gain over burning if sims are anywhere close to being right.
    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2013-04-20 at 05:14 AM.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    This is my reaction as well. For a spec that has no real care for haste outside of combustion, having what amounts to 3/4 to a full extra heroism over the fight seems decent. To expect it up for every cooldown set is asking a lot. The ~10% uptime is already a gain over burning if sims are anywhere close to being right.
    This is the part that interests me, but I really fail at math to work out the numbers on my own.
    What is our relative power gain with the meta, vs the normal one, compared to some of the other classes?

    Are we 'that good' with the way it was before? And at what point does nerfing the legendary gem make it not feel very much 'legendary' anymore?

    at 10% uptime, what's the relative power gain? I had my uptime math wrong without the failsafe numbers worked in, and the normal meta-gem also scales with gear/crit (the 3% more crit dmg part) so it isn't exactly super linear.

    As long as it's a decent gain, I think it's fine. My problem is if this coefficient going in, which cut the uptime by just a bit under 3/4ers, makes the gem now be just a very small up from the normal gem, which would warrant some adjusting from a TC standpoint, but also, the gem has to feel useful, something up 10% of the time isn't very fun either.

  20. #80
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    I like how I make an observation and you all jump on that one thing o.o; I don't EXPECT it to be up for Combustions, but I'm just saying if it doesn't line up with any, it's a minor DPS boost at best unless it proccs a fair bit. At < 10% uptime, how often do you expect it to line up? Almost never is the right answer here.

    The problem is at its current state, the gem is barely better (if even) than Burning, and when it's a fucking LEGENDARY that's barely better than a JC cut, that's pathetic.

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