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  1. #121
    Even on jin'rokh 25 hc ( there's no point in watching jin'rokh 10 man normal , wtf ) , on top 100 , firemages do 10k more dps than boomkins. So well , like i said , moonkins are good on single target , and better than fire on 2 target fights. Fire is only better on 3-4 target fights ( council ).

  2. #122
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    Of course they're better than fire on 2 target fights. Unerring Vision -> DoT both targets -> spam starsurge. 2 target fights aren't fire's specialty.

  3. #123
    @Kuni where do you get the 3% avg raw dmg gain from? patchwerk fights?. If we are only going to get 2-4 procs per boss, as reported by some in this thread, those could easily fall on bad times where all the proc will benefit us is 2 bombs and maybe a Fb/pyro.

    They could proc just as megaera heads are going down or you got ice torrent. they could proc when flying to a platform on jikun. could proc on jinrokh when you have the orb. Could proc during primordius buff build up, and not at all when fully mutated. proc during shields and lightning debuff still up on iron qon/ windstorm. lei shen intermission phase. i could go on. My point is if we only get 2-4 procs during a fight they could easily be wasted. They could have fixed this with a Class/spec specific on use cooldown on the gem. Or by doing class balance on on spells instead of a meta.

    It is properly going to be a slight gain, sometimes. But if your unlucky with when it procs, it will be a equal to burning if not worse. The fact that we have a 7 page thread on the topic clearly shows that something is wrong. Even when many posts are irrelevant.

    Not many have the gem in my guild, im still stuck on 16/20. But one of our Spriests got it and saw a 20-30k increase in dps...

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    @Kuni where do you get the 3% avg raw dmg gain from? patchwerk fights?. If we are only going to get 2-4 procs per boss, as reported by some in this thread, those could easily fall on bad times where all the proc will benefit us is 2 bombs and maybe a Fb/pyro.

    They could proc just as megaera heads are going down or you got ice torrent. they could proc when flying to a platform on jikun. could proc on jinrokh when you have the orb. Could proc during primordius buff build up, and not at all when fully mutated. proc during shields and lightning debuff still up on iron qon/ windstorm. lei shen intermission phase. i could go on. My point is if we only get 2-4 procs during a fight they could easily be wasted. They could have fixed this with a Class/spec specific on use cooldown on the gem. Or by doing class balance on on spells instead of a meta.

    It is properly going to be a slight gain, sometimes. But if your unlucky with when it procs, it will be a equal to burning if not worse. The fact that we have a 7 page thread on the topic clearly shows that something is wrong. Even when many posts are irrelevant.

    Not many have the gem in my guild, im still stuck on 16/20. But one of our Spriests got it and saw a 20-30k increase in dps...
    Gonna get mine next week. So i'll be able to give feedback for average ilvl frostmage. I don't know if its a 5/6k upgrade or more in frost.
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    @Kuni where do you get the 3% avg raw dmg gain from? patchwerk fights?. If we are only going to get 2-4 procs per boss, as reported by some in this thread, those could easily fall on bad times where all the proc will benefit us is 2 bombs and maybe a Fb/pyro.
    Yes, patchwerk fights. That's the only way to even begin to compare it against burning. 2 bombs and some hard casted spells is all that's needed to make it decent. It's probably not going to be up for combustion. You might get one, if you have quick crits at the start of a fight but that's about it. Our bombs are ridiculously good, and they're getting better in 5.3.

    They could proc just as megaera heads are going down or you got ice torrent. they could proc when flying to a platform on jikun. could proc on jinrokh when you have the orb. Could proc during primordius buff build up, and not at all when fully mutated. proc during shields and lightning debuff still up on iron qon/ windstorm. lei shen intermission phase. i could go on. My point is if we only get 2-4 procs during a fight they could easily be wasted. They could have fixed this with a Class/spec specific on use cooldown on the gem. Or by doing class balance on on spells instead of a meta.

    It is properly going to be a slight gain, sometimes. But if your unlucky with when it procs, it will be a equal to burning if not worse. The fact that we have a 7 page thread on the topic clearly shows that something is wrong. Even when many posts are irrelevant.

    Not many have the gem in my guild, im still stuck on 16/20. But one of our Spriests got it and saw a 20-30k increase in dps...
    You could just as easily have to run ice torrent as you're preparing combustion, or your trinkets procced, or even as another spec with cooldowns up. Shit happens. You don't think it sucks having to sit still on Iron Qon with all CDs and procs up, but the frost dog's shield happened to pick your side? It sucks for any spec, but that's what happens. Downtime on Lei Shen gives you the bad luck protection proc modifiers, so it's not an entire loss for that phase, but yes, it can suck as well. Primordius, you've gotta kill those adds anyway. Enjoy the debuffs for the boss, enjoy procs for adds.

    A spec specific on use would be interesting, but conflicts with engineering tinkers and possibly any future on use trinkets. It'd also be a fair bit less powerful than it is now, since you could control when you want it, as is the standard for on use effects. You can't balance classes first and then throw the gem on top of it. It breaks your balance attempts. Not all classes benefit equally from haste, and some only want haste during certain points in their rotation like fire. Every raider who is at all serious is going to have this gem. It has to be accounted for. Using it as another tuning knob is the only way to make it work. As I said earlier, fire's in an extremely good situation for the encounters it excels at, in addition to flat out single target.

    That it's a minimal gain means fire's in a good spot even without it. We already have people bitching and complaining that fire shouldn't be tuned for BiS, which is a BS argument to begin with. Can you imagine the tears that would have happened if it was nerfed without the meta? Holy fuck, I shudder at the thought. We have 2 pages of pre-fix speculation, a page of people being angry (some at me) that it's being fixed, and 4 pages of people ignoring math for average fights and picking fringe examples and general panic. That's hardly proof of anything, other than people don't listen to reason.

    Spriests are also not exactly high DPS compared to most, and you're comparing the broken proc rate against the slightly lower proc rate shadow should have now.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    And I'm talking about burning vs sinister gems, as they stand post-fix, and the relative difference between them. I find it oddly fascinating that you're complaining this much about it, when you have a thread based on trying to reason why you don't use MI for the damage gain, which is very nearly the damage gained from the legendary over burning. It's a 3% gain over burning right now. There's no real argument to use burning right now.
    I'd like to know how you come up with a 3% increase. On average?

    You do realize when it proccs greatly influences the DPS increase, right? (Unlike almost any other caster by comparison; Affliction, SPriests, and Boomers can instantly apply all their DoTs when it proccs, Ele just Flame Shocks and continues with their rotation, Destro continues and ignores. Arcane continues, Frost continues, Demo... Demo's weird and I barely know it, so I'm going to skip it. That just leaves Fire, which if they continue with their rotation, they won't get much out of it. Need Pyroblasts and a Combustion, both of which can only be used based on RNG, just like the fucking gem itself)

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  7. #127
    Something I don't think has been touched on exactly is this. Where was fire relative to other classes with the meta gem the way it was before? Its really hard for me to say as my gem went hand in hand with about 10 ilvls worth of gear.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Megae...14/60/default/

    Fire destroys boomers ST?

    Primordius is not a good fight to judge any DPS on due to buffs, ST, and AoE.

    But no, it's bullshit that Boomkins got a retardedly high (almost 2.0) coefficient, and we got a 30% coeff. Like what the fuck?
    That's boomkin dotting both target the whole fight which obviously inflate their number. Every other ST fight fire is above moonkin, but then fire is also above on multi target fight like horridon/council/tortos.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I'd like to know how you come up with a 3% increase. On average?

    You do realize when it proccs greatly influences the DPS increase, right? (Unlike almost any other caster by comparison; Affliction, SPriests, and Boomers can instantly apply all their DoTs when it proccs, Ele just Flame Shocks and continues with their rotation, Destro continues and ignores. Arcane continues, Frost continues, Demo... Demo's weird and I barely know it, so I'm going to skip it. That just leaves Fire, which if they continue with their rotation, they won't get much out of it. Need Pyroblasts and a Combustion, both of which can only be used based on RNG, just like the fucking gem itself)
    As I said earlier, simulated with and without. So yes, on average. While SimC's absolute DPS numbers are off, the relative gains within the same spec are fairly accurate, which is why I posted percent damage gains instead of hard numbers.

    I'm well aware.

    Frost doesn't just continue, it does refresh NT if it's at least 6-8 ticks into that application by the time the gem's effect will wear off, haste dependant. Earlier if you have a trinket proc up at the same time, later if it was applied with a trinket proc but not with the gem. I'm fairly sure fire should be doing the same, but I could be wrong. I'm saying that fire doesn't really have much control over the timing of their combustions vs gem proc except right at the start of a fight. Despite that, it's still a gain over burning because our bombs are fairly damned powerful given what they are, and faster fireballs = faster HS = hasted pyro DoT, for however short a time until your next one. Despite trying to be a best case scenario, SimC isn't adjusting the action lists based on the gem automatically. So that's 3% at nearly worst case scenarios, barring just not being able to damage things when its up. You're going to get more if you start adjusting things for it.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Frost doesn't just continue, it does refresh NT if it's at least 6-8 ticks into that application by the time the gem's effect will wear off, haste dependant. Earlier if you have a trinket proc up at the same time, later if it was applied with a trinket proc but not with the gem. I'm fairly sure fire should be doing the same, but I could be wrong. I'm saying that fire doesn't really have much control over the timing of their combustions vs gem proc except right at the start of a fight. Despite that, it's still a gain over burning because our bombs are fairly damned powerful given what they are, and faster fireballs = faster HS = hasted pyro DoT, for however short a time until your next one. Despite trying to be a best case scenario, SimC isn't adjusting the action lists based on the gem automatically. So that's 3% at nearly worst case scenarios, barring just not being able to damage things when its up. You're going to get more if you start adjusting things for it.
    Alright, I was assuming it was just average, but that does sound a bit better, but you also need to take into account a Combustion that crits on almost every tick with Burning vs a Combustion that wasn't during Tempus Repit. That'd probably swing a bit more towards Burning.

    Even still though, that's a huge nerf to what it was just a day ago (well for Fire. It's a nice buff to quite a few speccs).

    I feel like at the very least, no specc should be below 0.75 as a coeff (even make it 1.0 if you have to), and adjust other speccs accordingly. There's no excuse to make such a low coefficient on the legendary, regardless of how 'ahead' a specc may be scaling with it. If a specc simply scales too out of control *coughFirecough*, then the specc should be fixed accordingly. [What I'm basically getting at is that Fire's scaling has always been pretty good that it almost begs to be scrapped and revamped, but at this point, they could at least buff the coeff for Fire, and scale up other speccs. Fire shouldn't have a shit coeff because other speccs don't scale as well]

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  11. #131
    Kuni I agree with you, Fire is in a good place and it would be OP with 25% uptime. Thats not the point though. The point is this is a legendary gem, and its on the edge of being obsolete for us.

    My point about the uptime and procs on bad times still applies, you refer to trinkets etc, My trinkets have 25%+ uptime, not 6-10. My point here is that with such a low uptime, we are getting punished even more, with a high % uptime its okay if some are wasted, with a low one the variable in our already somewhat variable dps gets even bigger.

    As for your latest comment, yes i would agree fire should use the proc for bombs only, its not going to line up with combustion, maybe sometimes on pull(we rarely wait 5min from trash->boss or wipe->pull), if it does proc, and we do get the crits and other trinket procs.
    But i doubt we will gain more than maybe 1 fireball in cast time. Also having to much haste can be a problem for firemages if we are standing at 20+ range(sometimes even closer), as we are firing Fb's so fast that we finish two casts before a crit lands and then we get HU loss and HS loss, any firemage will tell you that heroism can be a bitch if your standing at range. hasted pyro dot is of no relevance on single target, with current crit ratings it should not fall off.

    Any way keep in mind that i agree with your standpoint(s). I am not doing my arguments for a dps gain. And i am properly going to use it depending on my field tests once i get it(simC can be pretty meh)

    I just feel this Legendary meta is a really bad game design (just like that fucking pink direhorn grrrrrr. And a lot of other stuff).
    Last edited by stX3; 2013-04-21 at 04:22 AM.

  12. #132
    I don't know what you guys are complaining about. The meta gem is very good and the uptimes are fine. It is abit RNG swinging from 15% uptime to 30%, but it is still better then burning by quite a bit.

  13. #133
    I was getting between 25% and 30% uptime on the meta gem... but after they "fixed" the coefficients.. its now down between 4-8% on a consistent basis. I will agree that 30% uptime was ridiculous... but I also think that nerfing it down to sub 10% will make it equal or worse than the burning meta gem. It feels like the uptime should be closer to 15% or 20% to be on par with other classes.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Zavri View Post
    I don't know what you guys are complaining about. The meta gem is very good and the uptimes are fine. It is abit RNG swinging from 15% uptime to 30%, but it is still better then burning by quite a bit.
    It's not anymore.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 08:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauntedd View Post
    I was getting between 25% and 30% uptime on the meta gem... but after they "fixed" the coefficients.. its now down between 4-8% on a consistent basis. I will agree that 30% uptime was ridiculous... but I also think that nerfing it down to sub 10% will make it equal or worse than the burning meta gem. It feels like the uptime should be closer to 15% or 20% to be on par with other classes.
    It's not supposed to be on par with other classes because its a way to balance spec between them.

    If you give the same uptime to the best spec ou there and the worst, whats the point other than just a dps boost ?
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Zavri View Post
    I don't know what you guys are complaining about. The meta gem is very good and the uptimes are fine. It is abit RNG swinging from 15% uptime to 30%, but it is still better then burning by quite a bit.
    It's not anymore. Those were our previous proc uptimes, which nobody was complaining because the gem felt very good and procced enough that you knew it was there.

    Now, post fix, It's doing ~8% uptime, about half of what you listed as your lower plateau.
    It procs once or twice a fight.

  16. #136
    So where does all this feel this and think that come into play with the math?

  17. #137
    The up time is so pathetically low (6-7%) now that I'm just considering going back to the burning primal. What is the point of a legendary Meta if it feels extremely ordinary. =/

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Amelly View Post
    The up time is so pathetically low (6-7%) now that I'm just considering going back to the burning primal. What is the point of a legendary Meta if it feels extremely ordinary. =/
    Thats why I proposed to nerf fire then crank the uptime but apparently that would be stupid :P.
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Thats why I proposed to nerf fire then crank the uptime but apparently that would be stupid :P.
    Let's punish all the fire mages without the gem.

  20. #140
    You know it's poor design when some classes are getting more "fun" out of the effort it takes to obtain the item then others.

    At least the new 600 cloak will be equal to all classes.

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