Page 1 of 18
1
2
3
11
... LastLast
  1. #1
    High Overlord Aqacia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    144

    Exclamation Sinister Primal Diamond for FIRE

    First, I'm sorry if this have already been brought up. Havn't seen anything about it.

    Will the new legendary meta gem actually be that much better then the normal meta gem? The crit rating on it will be equally as good as the int on the on the normal meta gem (atleast according to askmrrobot's fire mage stat values). If that is true, then it means that you chose between a 30% haste proc for 10sec vs 3% increased crit damage.

    The proc chance of the gem is as following:

    Sinister Primal Diamond – 1.18 base RealPPM on damage/absorb of harmful or periodic spell. No ICD.
    - That base proc rate is multiplied by an additional coefficient:
    0.761 Arcane
    0.302 Fire Mage
    1.387 Frost Mage
    0.625 Affliction
    0.598 Demonology
    0.509 Destruction
    1.891 Elemental
    1.872 Moonkin
    0.933 Shadow
    1.000 Anyone Else
    Proc chance for fire: 1.18*0.302~0.36.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but this means that the gem will proc (for a fire mage) about every 3 minutes (since its using RPPM). If that is correct, you basically gain 30% haste for 10 secounds every 3 minutes. I'm not 100% sure of how to do the math to calculate how much haste rating this would give assuming it proc's every 3 minutes. Someone please help me with this.

    Either way, to me it feels like a 10sec haste buff that you cant pop yourself (i.e. it might proc when you're running/not have any CD's up etc) is not better then the 3% crit damage. Crit damage = combustion damage = fire mage's major damage. There's a lot of movement in this tier so the chances that you will proc the gem whilst not standing still nuking is fairly big.

    What do you guys think? Someone have any theorycrafting proving wich gem will be the best? Unless it turns out to be a big DPS increase I will probably stick with the normal meta gem since I don't think taking the risk of being forced to move when the gem procs is worth it.

  2. #2
    Pit Lord gutnbrg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    New Mageland
    Posts
    2,270
    if wat u say is correct, that sounds like the biggest waste of a meta gem there could be...

  3. #3
    The Patient Mûe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    GER
    Posts
    239
    Mhm I think it is meant to be the other way around. It should proc more often on not "haste" heavy builts like fire... and less often on "haste" heavy built like frost, elemental, moonkin. But the number show the exact opposite...

    Mhm...

    If they wrote devided by these factors it would at least made more sense.

    That would mean it would proc 0.63... times for a boomkin in one minute and 3.6 times for a fire mage... --> Which would mean ... well 30seks+ of 30% haste... a little op aswell
    Last edited by Mûe; 2013-04-03 at 11:40 AM.

  4. #4
    High Overlord Aqacia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    144
    Is there really noone who've even considered this, since (almost) noone responded?

  5. #5

  6. #6
    Well, +3% crit damage is not as good as it looks, it is litteraly not more then a slightly harder hitting crit.

    Those numbers you posted are from an old PTR build, not a soul will have the Legendary meta gem any time soon, I doubt before 5.3. There is no way the gem will proc 6 times as much for other classes. It will all be about equal (jugh) in the end, because otherwise everyone keeps nagging and nagging.

    I have no doubt that the new gem will be BiS. I wouldnt worry about it.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nohara View Post
    Well, +3% crit damage is not as good as it looks, it is litteraly not more then a slightly harder hitting crit.

    Those numbers you posted are from an old PTR build, not a soul will have the Legendary meta gem any time soon, I doubt before 5.3. There is no way the gem will proc 6 times as much for other classes. It will all be about equal (jugh) in the end, because otherwise everyone keeps nagging and nagging.

    I have no doubt that the new gem will be BiS. I wouldnt worry about it.
    Why wouldn,t anyone have the metagem soon? Is there a hugely long part of the quest chain after the secrets of the empire?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    Why wouldn,t anyone have the metagem soon? Is there a hugely long part of the quest chain after the secrets of the empire?
    I have to be honost, I thought there was another collecting quest for the gem, but that is the quest after you gain the meta gem.

    Looking at wowhead, i cant even find a link between the legendary gem questchain, and secrets of the empire.

  9. #9
    Anyone have any idea why the coefficient for Fire is so low compared to other specs? It seems like it's going to be another DPS tuning knob for Blizzard to balance, and losing 3% crit damage for this isn't cool either. I think Blizzard might have to hotfix this just like they had to hotfix Fire after the 5.1 and 5.2 launches. Live is like the new PTR, lol.

  10. #10
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    8,030
    Quote Originally Posted by Mûe View Post
    Mhm I think it is meant to be the other way around. It should proc more often on not "haste" heavy builts like fire... and less often on "haste" heavy built like frost, elemental, moonkin. But the number show the exact opposite...
    You'd think, but Blizzard Logic is to do things as backwards as possible.

    Seeing as how Haste Proccs are already quite garbage for us, to make this one procc 70% less than average is a joke.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-07 at 03:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MrExcelion View Post
    Anyone have any idea why the coefficient for Fire is so low compared to other specs? It seems like it's going to be another DPS tuning knob for Blizzard to balance, and losing 3% crit damage for this isn't cool either. I think Blizzard might have to hotfix this just like they had to hotfix Fire after the 5.1 and 5.2 launches. Live is like the new PTR, lol.
    The problem is almost no one has the gem unless they have had retardedly high luck, and the chance of said players to be parsing are even lower.

    Despite Blizzard having their own data that they could EASILY test and hotfix, they prefer to wait until players get items in game before tuning.



    All in all, my point being that the fact that we're questioning if a legendary gem is better than our current gem is a HUGE design failure on Blizzard's part. There should be NO QUESTION that this is better, if it was designed correctly.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-04-07 at 07:28 PM.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  11. #11
    I'm kind of concerned that losing 3% crit damage would be hurting us more than any other spec in the game, given Fire's high crit rate and the interaction with Combustion, so yeah it baffles me why our coefficient is so low.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2013-04-09 at 06:47 AM.

  12. #12
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    8,030
    Anyone out there willing to math if the loss of 3% Crit Damage and Intellect is worth the Crit and mini heroisms every ~3m?

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  13. #13
    Looking at my logs for Jin'rokh, Horridon, and Ji-Kun last week (25N, 516 ilvl, 2set/2set), I get about 55-58% of my damage from crits with a 38% crit rate. The current meta crit dmg bonus is therefore worth between 1/(.55/1.03 + .45) and 1/(.58/1.03 + .42) or between 1.6 and 1.7% dmg increase.

    30% haste with an uptime 1.18*.302*1.1366*10/60 (using my conservative 13.66% haste raid buffed, obviously will get higher as we get more gear) is an average of 2.025% haste. If we generously assume that 1% haste is a 1% dps gain (it's not), that's only barely better than the current meta gem before considering crit vs int. The crit is stronger if crit is worth 2/3 of int or more.

    At higher gear levels: top geared mages right now have like 44-48% char sheet crit buffed, 15-20% haste buffed. Looking at top fire parses right now I see max like 65% dmg from crits which translates into 1/(.65/1.03+.35) = 1.9% dps gain from crit meta vs 2.14% haste gain (approx 2% dps gain from haste meta).

    i.e. not significant increase

    On the other hand, looking at top moonkin logs I see between 60-68% crit damage and 20%ish haste buffed, which gives 1.78-2.02% dmg gain from crit meta vs. 30*1.18*1.872*1.20*10/60 = 13.25% haste gain for top moonkins. The disparity is ridiculous.

    Top frost logs: 65-72% crit dmg and 35-38% haste buffed which is 1.93-2.14% dmg from crit meta vs 30*1.18*1.387*1.35*10/60 = 11.05% haste gain for top frost mages. Again, clearly better than crit meta.

    Top destro logs: 65-70% crit dmg and 20-22%ish haste buffed which is again about 1.9-2.1% dmg from crit meta vs 30*1.18*.598*1.20*10/60 = 4.23% haste. Not as ridiculously better as for frost or moonkin, but still probably definitely stronger than crit meta.
    Last edited by Balhale; 2013-04-08 at 08:30 PM.

  14. #14
    First metas are starting to show up.

    Eack obtained Sinister Primal Diamond. in 41 minutes
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2013-04-10 at 11:28 PM.

  15. #15
    Field Marshal Vykina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Lancashire, UK
    Posts
    65
    For anyone wondering, the new meta is pretty insane, I'm averaging out at a 25% uptime, without a doubt, it is way better than the current gem.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Vykina View Post
    For anyone wondering, the new meta is pretty insane, I'm averaging out at a 25% uptime, without a doubt, it is way better than the current gem.
    25% uptime? That means they must've changed the rate for Fire Mages...

    Please post a log.
    If your logs are kept private please copy and paste a portion of your expression editor:
    spell="Tempus Repit"

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-10 at 05:39 PM ----------

    At 14% haste, you would see

    1.18*.302*1.14*10/60 = 6.77% uptime...


    25% uptime would be:
    1.18* X * 1.14 * 10/60 = 25%
    and X= 1.115
    Last edited by Windry; 2013-04-11 at 12:45 AM.

  17. #17
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...gv/details/23/

    Raiding for 4.5 more hours. Knock yourselves out.

  18. #18
    Blademaster Intervir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Bananaland; Brazil
    Posts
    39
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3044&e=3559

    Is it right? in a 8 minutes try it had 4 procs for a mage and 54 procs for a lock?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Intervir View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3044&e=3559

    Is it right? in a 8 minutes try it had 4 procs for a mage and 54 procs for a lock?
    On that try that lock had 54% uptime on the buff and 44% overall. Mage: 25% on that try, 28% overall.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Intervir View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3044&e=3559

    Is it right? in a 8 minutes try it had 4 procs for a mage and 54 procs for a lock?
    The "Unknown" caster happens for some reason. Look at the targets for correct. I had 16, lock had 70. Though they aoe a lot more on this fight. The uptime for the lock is ~ 2x mine.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •