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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I like how I make an observation and you all jump on that one thing o.o; I don't EXPECT it to be up for Combustions, but I'm just saying if it doesn't line up with any, it's a minor DPS boost at best unless it proccs a fair bit. At < 10% uptime, how often do you expect it to line up? Almost never is the right answer here.

    The problem is at its current state, the gem is barely better (if even) than Burning, and when it's a fucking LEGENDARY that's barely better than a JC cut, that's pathetic.
    Dps means nothing if its at wrong time, or doesn't proc doesn't come at crucial times. And frankly I wouldn't have expected even at 15% or so for the meta to line up too much, but at least it would be a dps gain overall in most cases. But at sub 10 uptime, the chances for a line up with combustion are super low. Making the meta really lackluster in most cases. But yeah have to watch at the situation for a while to really call it..

  2. #82
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyliria View Post
    This is the part that interests me, but I really fail at math to work out the numbers on my own.
    What is our relative power gain with the meta, vs the normal one, compared to some of the other classes?
    For fire specifically, it's about a 3% damage gain on average, over burning, with the ~10% proc rate estimated by SimC. Probably a bit higher if you pay attention to procs and get good at gaming how much you can abuse trinket procs against it for bomb damage.

    Frost gets about 8% out of it over burning, at about 43% uptime. Elemental, the highest rate, gets about 7% at ~50%. Realize those are two of the three highest modifier specs, on high haste value specs. Destro, one of the lower rates but still haste stacking, gets about 2% over burning at ~16% uptime. I'd check more specs, but I'm lazy and it takes a while to sim each one twice.

    Are we 'that good' with the way it was before? And at what point does nerfing the legendary gem make it not feel very much 'legendary' anymore?
    Fire's in a pretty damned good spot, and it only gets better as the patches go by. Inflating its damage because of a bug puts it out of line.

    What about our first legendary gem? We can't even use it anymore. And you can't really talk of a legendary feel. Everyone and their dog has, or will have, this gem. It's like Dragonwrath, casters got balanced around having it, and we're balanced around having this gem as well. Feeling legendary doesn't really hold much water these days.

    [...]also, the gem has to feel useful, something up 10% of the time isn't very fun either.
    That's a fair complaint, but also entirely subjective. We've had some pretty low uptime trinkets. I can't help you there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    The problem is at its current state, the gem is barely better (if even) than Burning, and when it's a fucking LEGENDARY that's barely better than a JC cut, that's pathetic.
    It's actually a decent gain out of a single gem. You've jumped to conclusions because the rate was nerfed and haven't looked at the math.

    Then again, why are you so up in arms about it specifically? You have said you don't want to use MI for DPS. MI does nearly the DPS this gem provides for fire. It'll do even more if it procs during MI's duration, and more again in 5.3 when they get pets to queue casts.

  3. #83
    The problem here is that legendary is starting to feel like it doesn't mean anything anymore with stuff like this. IMO that's pretty damaging unless they make a new item classification that's higher which is kinda lame. Its the same thing as the degradation of epic over the last few expansions. At lvl 100 are we going to be wearing legendary gems and enchants in everything and trying to make our new super awesome epic legendary supreme weapons in some kind of screwed up DBZ mentality? lol
    Last edited by Turkey One; 2013-04-20 at 06:55 AM.

  4. #84
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Well, they've still got artifact as an item class. But yeah. People wanted to be part of the legendary, so now everyone is. Though, if memory serves, we're supposed to get one of those one/two per guild items come 5.4. We'll see if they abandoned that idea entirely soon enough.

    If they have, then legendary simply means quested, slightly better than raid quality item. Which isn't a terrible idea either, but they then need that new carrot to go for at the high end...
    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2013-04-20 at 06:58 AM.

  5. #85
    What i dont get is why people are talking about combustion. Even if the meta procs when combustion is off cd, what are the chance you will build up(or already have it build) ignite in the 10s time window ? ill tell you, very slim.

    My biggest problem is the duration of the meta for fire, not the proc rate, even though that is ridicules as well. Its the same reason i am sceptical about the animus trinket as well, I am going to use it, but i dont count on the proc to be a gain for my combustion. The meta along with every other 10s duration proc is in practice a bomb buff where you can have 2 buffed bombs for its proc(one at start and one just before it expires), and ofc a buff to Fb/pyro.
    This combined with getting your procs at bad times, movement, not being able to dps the boss etc will decrease the benefit even more than the 3% avg dmg gain that kuni stated above. And with such a low amount of procs it is likely that we will be wasting or partially wasting a lot of them.

    Like others have mentioned this meta is just Rng ontop of Rng spiced with some more rng, its pretty stupid. And with that said keep in mind that i normally laugh at people calling fire Rng, when in fact there is little rng left in fire.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    The problem here is that legendary is starting to feel like it doesn't mean anything anymore with stuff like this. IMO that's pretty damaging unless they make a new item classification that's higher which is kinda lame. Its the same thing as the degradation of epic over the last few expansions. At lvl 100 are we going to be wearing legendary gems and enchants in everything and trying to make our new super awesome epic legendary supreme weapons in some kind of screwed up DBZ mentality? lol
    I think the design that blizz was going for was by giving everyone who puts in the time and effort a legendary, it removes guild drama and imbalance from the process of getting legendaries, I agree with this new design. While it's nice to be the guy who get's the zomg overpowered staff, it took an entire guild's effort to get that one person an item, then that person could just up and leave as soon as he gets it and it all goes to waste. Personal effort personal gain, and balance...seems pretty good to me even if I am trading that iconic legendary feel

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    For fire specifically, it's about a 3% damage gain on average, over burning, with the ~10% proc rate estimated by SimC. Probably a bit higher if you pay attention to procs and get good at gaming how much you can abuse trinket procs against it for bomb damage.

    Frost gets about 8% out of it over burning, at about 43% uptime. Elemental, the highest rate, gets about 7% at ~50%. Realize those are two of the three highest modifier specs, on high haste value specs. Destro, one of the lower rates but still haste stacking, gets about 2% over burning at ~16% uptime. I'd check more specs, but I'm lazy and it takes a while to sim each one twice.



    Fire's in a pretty damned good spot, and it only gets better as the patches go by. Inflating its damage because of a bug puts it out of line.

    What about our first legendary gem? We can't even use it anymore. And you can't really talk of a legendary feel. Everyone and their dog has, or will have, this gem. It's like Dragonwrath, casters got balanced around having it, and we're balanced around having this gem as well. Feeling legendary doesn't really hold much water these days.



    That's a fair complaint, but also entirely subjective. We've had some pretty low uptime trinkets. I can't help you there.



    It's actually a decent gain out of a single gem. You've jumped to conclusions because the rate was nerfed and haven't looked at the math.

    Then again, why are you so up in arms about it specifically? You have said you don't want to use MI for DPS. MI does nearly the DPS this gem provides for fire. It'll do even more if it procs during MI's duration, and more again in 5.3 when they get pets to queue casts.


    Out of curiosity, do you know what the dps gain over normal meta for physical dps classes is?

  8. #88
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyliria View Post
    Out of curiosity, do you know what the dps gain over normal meta for physical dps classes is?
    From raid experience, it's probably along the lines of 2-9%. Our melee are having a lot of fun shooting lightning bolts and have been seeing who has the largest damage contribution. If you were to sim it yourself, load the HT15 profile for any given spec, run it at 25k, then run it again but modify the capacitive_primal_diamond entry to either reverberating or agile, depending on str or agi. I'm way too tired to start chain simming shit with as slow as it is.

  9. #89
    So what is the proc rate supposed to be for fire after that hotfix ? 5% ?
    If so that's really silly , and the normal legendary is way better...

  10. #90
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    Nice, got it thursday and now it's nerfed, good WoW...had 4 procs (8% uptime) against horridon lfr. That's what I call a legandary, NOT! Well, ofc it procced when it had alter time.

  11. #91
    Yeah , considering it procs way more often on horridon , that's roughly a 5-6% uptime.
    So i guess that's a 3% dps boost. Considering the old one is like a 4-5% dps boost , there's no reason to keep it , and even more since it is a rppm proc , and it can proc 2 times in a row and no more for 6 minutes.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breakee View Post
    Yeah , considering it procs way more often on horridon , that's roughly a 5-6% uptime.
    So i guess that's a 3% dps boost. Considering the old one is like a 4-5% dps boost , there's no reason to keep it , and even more since it is a rppm proc , and it can proc 2 times in a row and no more for 6 minutes.
    Just did Tortos (11 min fight, LFR) and had one single proc at 13% boss HP. 2% Uptime, quite good. Think I delete my character.
    And Horridon as a multidot encounter should not have any influence on an increased uptime since RPPM "does not care" about multiple targets.

    EDIT: Was there any annoucement that the rppm rates should be "fixed" with the last server restart?
    Last edited by Smaikiii; 2013-04-20 at 03:36 PM.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Smaikiii View Post
    And Horridon as a multidot encounter should not have any influence on an increased uptime since RPPM "does not care" about multiple targets.

    Kinda does , since you get more target , so the chance to proc is way greater .
    The overall uptime should be a bit higher , since your chance to get procs is higher.

    Btw , no announcement about the fix .
    What is the point in making a legendary gem that can be 10 times better for a class than for another ?

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Breakee View Post
    Kinda does , since you get more target , so the chance to proc is way greater .
    The overall uptime should be a bit higher , since your chance to get procs is higher.

    Btw , no announcement about the fix .
    What is the point in making a legendary gem that can be 10 times better for a class than for another ?
    They use the gem to balance classes, rather than fixing the lower dps specs and just making the gem the same for all.

  15. #95
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Then again, why are you so up in arms about it specifically? You have said you don't want to use MI for DPS. MI does nearly the DPS this gem provides for fire. It'll do even more if it procs during MI's duration, and more again in 5.3 when they get pets to queue casts.
    I'm talking about pre-nerf, but feel free to use an argument from another thread as to why this gem should stay absolutely abysmal for one specc. It was definitely a huge DPS increase before they applied the coefficients. My DPS skyrocketed this week from the previous week with the gem.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 12:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakee View Post
    Kinda does , since you get more target , so the chance to proc is way greater .
    The overall uptime should be a bit higher , since your chance to get procs is higher.
    I'm guessing you don't understand what RPPM does. It calculates if you have way more chances to procc and cancels them.



    Regardless, they really need to fix this. Fire shouldn't even be considering the Burning meta especially when you can just buy that while we had to do a TON of raiding in both T14 and T15 to get to this point.

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  16. #96
    if you consider switching a 3% dps upgrade to an old meta then you aren't a real deeps player.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I'm talking about pre-nerf, but feel free to use an argument from another thread as to why this gem should stay absolutely abysmal for one specc. It was definitely a huge DPS increase before they applied the coefficients. My DPS skyrocketed this week from the previous week with the gem.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 12:21 PM ----------



    I'm guessing you don't understand what RPPM does. It calculates if you have way more chances to procc and cancels them.



    Regardless, they really need to fix this. Fire shouldn't even be considering the Burning meta especially when you can just buy that while we had to do a TON of raiding in both T14 and T15 to get to this point.
    Great, so nerf fire damage and scaling and then up the meta gem procs accordingly to keep it in line, would that better a better idea ?
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Regardless, they really need to fix this. Fire shouldn't even be considering the Burning meta especially when you can just buy that while we had to do a TON of raiding in both T14 and T15 to get to this point.
    Agreed'd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleuria View Post
    They use the gem to balance classes, rather than fixing the lower dps specs and just making the gem the same for all.
    Yeah , i guess that's why.
    That's like really dumb , and just makes me wonder if they're playing their own game at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Great, so nerf fire damage and scaling and then up the meta gem procs accordingly to keep it in line, would that better a better idea ?
    According to the last logs from top guilds , the difference is really low between before and after they get the legendary meta.
    And they're always , always below locks , on every fight.

  19. #99
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Great, so nerf fire damage and scaling and then up the meta gem procs accordingly to keep it in line, would that better a better idea ?
    I don't really see why Fire needs a nerf in the first place when you consult raidbots or hell even WoL. We aren't topping every fight like last tier, and take a look at (AVERAGE) parses among all the classes. Fire is middle or a bit above middle. Why should we be nerfed? Something to keep in consideration is that Fire with top RNG SHOULD be topping the meters every time, yet even at top parses, we aren't #1. What gives?

    Edit: Looking closer, Warlocks STILL beat Mages (even Fire) on 25H, 25N, 10H, and 10N (For average parses; top parses are unfair to judge Fire on due to RNG), and yet their coefficients are SIGNIFICANTLY higher than ours. Why the fuck are they getting great RPPM and we get shit RPPM, especially when if it proccs w/o Combustion, it doesn't do us much good?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 12:59 PM ----------

    Seriously though, someone needs to get ahold of Blizzard about this.

    - Fire is lower than Warlocks on average parses across the board (all 4 difficulties).
    - Fire's coefficient is way too low to be of any real use, especially when the odds of it lining up with Combustion are abysmal. In addition, All 3 Warlock speccs have a higher coefficient despite being higher DPS (and Affliction benefits significantly more than we do, since their DoTs need no preparation to use).
    - Fire doesn't NEED to be nerfed because it's middle/above middle of the pack. (or if Fire's nerfed, Warlocks need an even bigger nerf to keep us all in line).

    Feel free to use my parses on the dummy to post to them. (Links will take you to the posts in the forum. Click the links in them for my WoLs)

    - http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20882209 (Tests 1 and 2, both being Fire with a somewhat-normal rotation. Duration: ~6m)
    - http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20883621 (Test 3, checking Frost's RPPM on it, and it definitely works as intended. Duration: ~6m)
    - http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20884008 (Test 4, trying Fire again, but only using Scorch, and Frost Armor to make up for the missing raid Haste [which is actually +2% above it, but whatever]. Duration: ~20m)
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-04-20 at 05:01 PM.

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  20. #100
    Not a single post about this on blizzard forums? What gives?? I'd do it but im perma-forum banned.

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