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  1. #1

    10 man loot wastage solution

    Ok so I agree with many others here that the amount of loot that gets sharded every week is quite dissatisfying and a sour end to a joyous process (downing the boss should be awesome, not depressing). Now I will outline a solution I thought of while I was bored today, hear me out and read the whole thing before flaming me, thanks. I'll use ICC for my story, most people should be familiar with it.

    Now I want you to imagine that at the entrance to the raid there is a special new NPC that for some reason or another is invested in your efforts to purge the place of all the bad guys (like Bran in halls of lightning). When your raid proceeds and kills the first boss, instead of right clicking the corpse and seeing two randomly generated loots from his loot table, you will instead receive two items unique to Lord Marrowgar for example "Pulsating Bone Fragments". Stay with me here. The raid leader/loot master holds onto these for now.

    The NPC mentioned earlier will now fade in at the boss you've just killed and a big, full sack will appear over his shoulder and he will emote something along the lines of "Well done friends! I'll keep all the spoils safe for you at the entrance until you return, then together we can see if any of this treasure is still in one piece after such a battle!"

    Now how do you get loot right? Here is the cool part (imo). Say you want to go and collect your loot right away after killing Lord Marrowgar, so you will head back to the entrance and talk to the NPC standing there next to an ever-growing (phasing) pile of shiny treasure. Upon talking to the NPC a vendor window will be opened with separate tabs for each boss. First tab, Lord Marrowgar, will include every item of loot on Lord Marrowgars loot table (it makes more sense that all the loot drops when you kill a boss, imo, stay with me).

    However, upon opening the Lord Marrowgar Treasure Haul tab the NPC will say something like "Oh what a shame! In all your fury you have gone and utterly destroyed nearly all the treasure, but wait just a moment! I see a few pieces of plunder here that are within my skill to restore... but my materials aren't cheap I'll have you know! I have an offer to make you. As armour and weapons are of little interest to me, bring me other... more exotic spoils of your conquests here and I will consider them fair trade for my service and materials."

    Four rolls will be made automatically by the engine, which will determine which items in the Lord Marrowgar Treasure Haul are eligable for restoration and trade. This does NOT guarantee a choice between four out of the total loot table, as double-ups can still occur as normal. So you now see for example that, for this kill, the axe + ring + neck + chest are eligable. Upon requesting the NPC restore an item, he will ask if you have anything to offer him in return. If you have one of the "Pulsating Bone Fragments" from his corpse, the NPC will oblige and the trade will be made.

    This process would repeat for every boss in the instance. Note that as you are collecting boss-specific currencies, you will still not be able to receive more than the usual two items per boss per week. The benefit of this system is that while you still receive the exact same quantity of loot per raid, by choosing two of four available options you are given a significant opportunity to ensure that the loot is useful and not discarded.

    This process could very easily be adapted for every new raid... It might be a bit to get your head around but I think the idea of the boss dropping all the loot but most of it being damaged beyond repair due to the conflict makes a lot of sense.

    Interested in comments and feedback. Cheers.

  2. #2
    High Overlord
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    Well, cool story I must say, but I would satisfied enough if only the bosses dropped loot that can be used by the raid, meaning that dropping a plate intellect chest for a 10man with no hpala in it, is a shame...

  3. #3
    Mechagnome
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    Seems a bit overkill, DE and be happy =D

  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BergErr View Post
    Seems a bit overkill, DE and be happy =D
    Bam.

    Said in 8 words instead of that wall of text.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
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  5. #5
    If the engine could just recognize what classes / specs you have in your raid, that'd be plenty.
    I agree, this seems a bit like an overkill.
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  6. #6
    The Patient
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    Is it me, or is OP describing how coins work?
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  7. #7
    Just put in a spec detecting technology when boss is killed, problem solved.
    Like our first ji'kun kill couple of weeks ago. Tierset legs - bank loot, waiting for 2nd piece.
    The second item - int plate head, trolololol. Oh well at least i got 13k for the spirit. Raid repairs and food covered for couple of days.

    Either remake of one of DPS plate specs (unholy DK's maybe?) to be ranged dps using int plate so this loot is less likely to be wasted, or just put in spec detection that forbids useless loot to show up.

    This puts in some risk of abuse, like guilds filling raid with alts of specific classes to rule out gear they already have on mains from loot table but aren't world first progression guilds doing it already? Who cares about half heroic guild like ours replacing 2-3 mains with class specified alts to disable some of the useless loot.

    This might increase the prices of crafted items even more as enchanting mats will grow more scarce but those price tags are already totally batshit crazy and accesible to less than 1 percent of player base. I mean what the actual fuck, 100k gold for normal grade item, full 4 resets into the tier.

    And topic says 10 man loot wastage. If you think 25 man is any different think again. They might have more items per person and better thunderforged ratios but that's only good for first few runs. After that you are getting buried under useless dupes, for example a boss drops THREE copies of same item while your raid already has all members equipped with it. Say one is thunderforged, two are going to DE. The amount of dupes in 25 man raids is obscene, anyone who raided 25's will confirm.
    Last edited by Esubane; 2013-04-03 at 12:57 PM.

  8. #8
    The problem is that loot tables are (probably) generated when you first create the instance. You would need to change how the loot is generated to take into account players switching in/out of the raid. Blizzard also seems to be obsessed with trying to prevent a very small minority of players from doing incredibly stupid things to abuse loot systems. They would probably make the excuse that if they made some sort of dynamic loot system, on a future boss that is like say Illidan (drops a legendary specific to maybe 1 or 2 classes) you will have 10 mans trying to bring 6 or 7 rogues to try and juice the chances of getting the legendary to drop. I know that this is completely ridiculous and a straw man argument, but it is no less ridiculous than say whatever their excuse was for taking item upgrades out of the game.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by elfox View Post
    If the engine could just recognize what classes / specs you have in your raid, that'd be plenty.
    I agree, this seems a bit like an overkill.
    That would be really nice tbh. Another possible solution would be if they made it possible to exchange 1-2 items per week for an item of your choosing. Item to token, token to new item.

  10. #10
    This strikes me as just a much more friendly version of the way things are now. The "solution" now is, "Oh, you don't need that drop? Disenchant it. Once you get 5 or 7 more haunting spirits, you can make either boots or a helm that you can use." Ofc, it's not very efficient.

    However, I feel like yours would go against the philosophy they've espoused in the past. They like there being a real element of RNG to it. Giving people too much control over their drops is something they're not wild about, and any bit they move in that direction, will be measured and conservative (which this proposal is not, imo). They can always be more rewarding later, but they know that cutting back if they feel they overdid it will not be well-received. Coins/Runes are a token on their part showing that they are aware of our frustrations (though massive loot tables is a step in the wrong direction, imo).

    I think that ruling out certain items dropping based on raid make-up is the most prudent concession to ask for. I believe that 5.3 intends to introduce the option for LFR raiders to choose their loot spec preference. If that works well, perhaps they would consider implementing it in normal/heroic raids.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    The problem is that loot tables are (probably) generated when you first create the instance.
    Yep... Unless its been changed this is how loot tables are generated. World mobs generate their loot table on spawn while dungeons/raids are made upon the 1st person spawning into them

  12. #12
    I don't mind some random chance of wasted loot - my issue is that it seems to be about 50% of the loot that's DEed which is too much. They'll never do a "only drop something useful" method I think - they want some suspense about whether we'll get loot vs who will get loot.

    All they really need to do is weight the loot drop rates so that it's more likely that a piece useful to the raid will drop. THat leaves a chance that something useless will drop so that it's still like looting an opponent and not like going shopping, but if we weight things correctly it would take the DE chance down.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Spydahlol View Post
    Yep... Unless its been changed this is how loot tables are generated. World mobs generate their loot table on spawn while dungeons/raids are made upon the 1st person spawning into them
    How would you know?

    With per-boss saves for normal mode I kinda doubt it works like that.

  14. #14
    Mechagnome Dhryke's Avatar
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    Loot and the randomness of it is what makes the process of collecting the loot more fun.

    So many stories to share where vent erupted with squeals of joy when that one item someone was waiting on finally dropped.

    Maybe next time...

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by elfox View Post
    If the engine could just recognize what classes / specs you have in your raid, that'd be plenty.
    I agree, this seems a bit like an overkill.
    This seems fair to me. In all likeliness it won't even take our more than 1 or 2 items max which hardly makes it OP.

  16. #16
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    The problem is that loot tables are (probably) generated when you first create the instance.
    Loot tables are actually (secretly) database tables. When you kill the boss, the server generates a set of random numbers which determine which entries from that table you get. So no, loot is determined based on what time it is when you kill the boss (random numbers are usually a function of the current time).

    So, literally if you were a millisecond faster or slower on the kill, you'd get different loot.

    *I don't know for sure that this is correct, but I see absolutely no reason why this wouldn;t be their implementation*

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
    How would you know?

    With per-boss saves for normal mode I kinda doubt it works like that.
    I believe Blizzard has confirmed it in the past. Also, the per-boss save model hasn't been active for very long. It used to be that each time you zoned into a raid instance, it "seeded" the raid instance, spawned all the mobs and their loot tables, and gave you a specific raid ID (ie, 250392 or something like that), and everyone who downed a boss in that ID got saved to the ID. Now it seems like you're no longer saved to an ID but to a specific boss, but I believe the concept of raid IDs is still in place. It's just that the system is smarter about detecting whether you've killed a certain boss or not.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhryke View Post
    Loot and the randomness of it is what makes the process of collecting the loot more fun.
    Eh... personally I think RNG loot drops are eventually going to be seen as an antiquated game device and replaced.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by KidCanuck View Post
    Loot tables are actually (secretly) database tables. When you kill the boss, the server generates a set of random numbers which determine which entries from that table you get. So no, loot is determined based on what time it is when you kill the boss (random numbers are usually a function of the current time).

    So, literally if you were a millisecond faster or slower on the kill, you'd get different loot.

    *I don't know for sure that this is correct, but I see absolutely no reason why this wouldn;t be their implementation*
    I believe Blizzard has explicitly stated (or it has leaked) that loot is not generated on kill, but when the instance is created.

    Now, whether that is:

    A. a lie

    or

    B. no longer true post LFR/spec-specific bonus rolls and all the new tech...

    I couldn't say

  20. #20
    I like the idea in theory, however i would make it so if you disenchant said item you get a shard. Get x amount of shards you can buy certain pieces from a vendor at the entrance. These shards would have to be Bop with 2 hour trade though so you can get the shards to the right people. However i don't mean 5 shards for a piece of gear more like 10-20.
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