1. #1
    The Patient Dorac's Avatar
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    Elemental Multi-Dotting

    Hey all,

    I had to switch my main spec to Elemental a week after 5.2 launch due to the guild not needing 2 Resto shamans. I have a decent grasp of the spec since I played it as my main OS on some T14 fights and in past expansions.

    The other ele in my guild tells me that multi dotting with Flame shock will be a DPS increase because of the lava surge procs. I always read on here that multi dotting is NOT a DPS increase. But he is saying that things have changed and now it is a increase.

    He was also stating that with 4 piece T15 that multi dotting is even more important now because of lava bursts reducing our Ascencance CD.

    So my question to the experienced eles out there who have been playing the spec longer and have more experience then myself, Is multi dotting with flame shock worth the GCD now for lava surge procs with the T15 4 piece bonus? Or is he completely wrong?

    Thank you.

  2. #2
    Your guildmate is right, multi dotting is indeed an increase. I've tested it on serveral bosses with my other elemental guildy ( we're the same skillwise ) The one multi dotting has always come out on top.

  3. #3
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Yes, it includes lava surge procs. It's not worth multidotting; you do get extra procs, but each subsequent Flame Shock is significantly less valuable than the first in this respect; any proc that occurs in the window between another proc and the cast that consumes it, is wasted. You DO get more procs, but each proc is an additional GCD spent casting it; it's not "free". The total gain from the additional procs isn't as significant as people think, and in the end, the value of the FS cast is less than if you'd just cast an LB instead.

    It's not really bad; you're not going to lose DPS, or not much, anyway. But you're just as well off burning a single target.
    Tohis might help

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 10:55 PM ----------

    Not sure if this takes in to account the 4 set bonus

  4. #4
    with t14 4p bonus, we usually didn't want to multidot because we could nearly cast earth shock on cd anyway, and most of the time multidoting flame shock would waste an earth shock, and that's bad.

    Without t14 4p however, if there are only 2 adds, then you should be able to multidot on both (flame shock > earth shock > flame shock > earth shock...), and you shouldn't waste too many lightning charges.
    At 3+ target spam CL + earth shock is the way to go, so no dotting at all (not sure if 4p t15 changes something, but I guess not)

    Basically the point is "If you have the choice between flame shock or a 7 charged earth shock, go for earth shock. If you have your shock timer up and it look like you're not going to get capped on lightning charge in the next 5 secs, then go for an additional flame shock".

  5. #5
    Flame Shock's raw damage alone has a higher DPET (Damage per execute time) than lightning bolt. I ran very rough numbers, and LiB does 40% of FS as far as DPET goes. I may have done this wrong, but Simcraft supports me in DPET. You're only calculating half of the equation when you say you have wasted lava surge procs. And just because one surge may be wasted, you may also gain a couple that you wouldn't normally get. There is a lesser chance that two will over lap, than wont.

    Granted, the math I did did not include fulmination stack onto LiB, I am going to do a bit of that now. I don't see how those are going to be enough to move it up above FS. Especially because this isn't including the extra Lava Surge procs that ARE utilized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethan View Post
    Basically the point is "If you have the choice between flame shock or a 7 charged earth shock, go for earth shock. If you have your shock timer up and it look like you're not going to get capped on lightning charge in the next 5 secs, then go for an additional flame shock".
    I second this. If you look at simcraft (I know its not exactly right, but its close enough for this measure], Flame Shock and Earth Shock+Fulmination are our second and third highest damage per execute time spells. Under only LvB. LiB is under EB if you take it.
    Last edited by Zixan; 2013-04-02 at 11:21 PM.

  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire
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    If you have 2 targets which you cant cleave with CL, multidotting is a bit of DPS increase if you do it right.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortalomena View Post
    If you have 2 targets which you cant cleave with CL, multidotting is a bit of DPS increase if you do it right.
    This is the correct answer. For example, on Meg you should multi-dot. On any fight where you can CL instead of continuous single-target switching, don't bother.

  8. #8
    on Meg you should multi-dot
    only if you want to pad meters and don't care about actually killing the boss, doting an useless target is a dps loss.

    And if two target are close to each other (ie eggs on Ji-Kun) It might be useful to multidot, depending on if you still manage to get to 7stack each time the shock cd resets or not (ie, with 4pt14 you shouldn't, without it's probably possible)

  9. #9
    Pandaren Monk lokithor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethan View Post
    only if you want to pad meters and don't care about actually killing the boss, doting an useless target is a dps loss.

    And if two target are close to each other (ie eggs on Ji-Kun) It might be useful to multidot, depending on if you still manage to get to 7stack each time the shock cd resets or not (ie, with 4pt14 you shouldn't, without it's probably possible)
    How so? You would get more Lava Surge procs which means more LvB which means the main head you're on dies faster.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by lokithor View Post
    How so? You would get more Lava Surge procs which means more LvB which means the main head you're on dies faster.
    You don't get that much Lava Surge Procs out of a single FS, if your FS ticks every 2 Seconds you will roughly get 3-4 Procs.

    Secondly, if they proc shortly before Lvb comes off CD, the Gain from such Lava Surge Procs is quite low.

    Multi dotting is rarely an actual Single Target Dps gain, even for Specs that gain much more procs out of their dots.

    But anyway, Multi dotting is hardly ever used because:
    In Situations with multiple targets and are able to use cl, which will soak most of your Shocks for ES.
    In Situations where you are unable to use Cl, mobs don't live long enough to that FS runs it's full duration, cutting FS Damage and procs.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2013-04-03 at 01:13 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
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  11. #11
    And I call.. Magaera ! or Will of the Emperor, Garalon, etc... fights like those having a second flame shock up is a DPS increase. While AoEing you don't get benefit from Flame Shock since the Chain Lightning buff with 5.2

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Norbb View Post
    Your guildmate is right, multi dotting is indeed an increase. I've tested it on serveral bosses with my other elemental guildy ( we're the same skillwise ) The one multi dotting has always come out on top.
    Please don't claim different things with that small of a test amount, there is no way you can judge from you and your guildy if multidotting is worth it or not. The dps increase is superduper small if it's actually an increase and there is alot more things that will decide who comes out on top then if you were multidotting or not, very important to understand this.

    OT: Only boss i see worth multidotting in T15 is twins, I still don't believe that it's worth multidotting atleast until you have your 4p and even then I'm unsure, it would have to be simmed though. I can promise that the dps increase/decrease will be very very tiny, but if it's and increase it's ofcourse worth using.

    Also, I'm 99% sure Simcraft counts the extra damage you get on your lava burst into the DPET of flame shock and doesn't only count the raw number of it. So I'm fairly sure the 40% of a LiB is incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taoforums View Post
    And I call.. Magaera ! or Will of the Emperor, Garalon, etc... fights like those having a second flame shock up is a DPS increase. While AoEing you don't get benefit from Flame Shock since the Chain Lightning buff with 5.2
    Magaera, no. Garalon, probably not. WotE, yeah, usefull there with 4p. Once again though, if you mess up one small thing in your rotation while trying to multidot the increase you would have gotten will instead go and be a huge decrease, don't fool yourself thinking you're a boomkin.

  13. #13
    playing a bit with simcraft, with my current stat/setup (2pt14, 2pt15, 517ilevel, echo, PE):

    single target : 123 883 dps
    multidotting* on two targets : 127 743 dps
    damage done on first target when multidoting : 121 010 dps


    So on megaera, you should not multidot, otherwise you might want to.


    *multidotting means you do your single rotation while throwing extra flame shock on a extra target if flame shock is up and next spell you'd normally cast is not a shock/lvb. Only "error" with my implementation is that it will let the fire elemental aoe on both target, but that's pretty negligible. To get the damage done on main target I went into "enemy1 > Statistics & Data Analysis > DTPS > Mean".
    Last edited by Bethan; 2013-04-03 at 10:18 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Bethan View Post
    playing a bit with simcraft, with my current stat/setup (2pt14, 2pt15, 517ilevel, echo, PE):

    single target : 123 883 dps
    multidotting* on two targets : 127 743 dps
    damage done on first target when multidoting : 121 010 dps


    So on megaera, you should not multidot, otherwise you might want to.


    *multidotting means you do your single rotation while throwing extra flame shock on a extra target if flame shock is up and next spell you'd normally cast is not a shock/lvb. Only "error" with my implementation is that it will let the fire elemental aoe on both target, but that's pretty negligible. To get the damage done on main target I went into "enemy1 > Statistics & Data Analysis > DTPS > Mean".
    Those results make the most sense. BTW what I posted was in reference to something Endus wrote that its a tiny miniscule DPS upgrade if done perfectly on a fight where you can't CL.

    Bethan, can you do it again with Echo/EB? I imagine that with less Lightning Bolt casts you'd have less Fulmination overlap and damage done on first target might even increase.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Telefonorm View Post
    Also, I'm 99% sure Simcraft counts the extra damage you get on your lava burst into the DPET of flame shock and doesn't only count the raw number of it. So I'm fairly sure the 40% of a LiB is incorrect.
    No, Simcraft does not use Lava Surge procs as being FS DPET. For one, I calculated this off of rough WoL numbers, not looking at Simcraft. Second, it would skew a lot of the DPET graph. This would mean that the Lava Bursts casted soon after Lava Surge would be rolled into FS damage, instead of LvB.

    The only mechanic that is rolled together like that is Earth Shock/Fulmination, but it works because they actually do hit with the same cast.

  16. #16
    2pt14, 2pt15, 517ilevel, echo, EB (everything same as few posts above)

    solo : 126 663 dps
    multi : 130 248 dps
    damage on main target when multidoting : 123 595 dps

    edit : tried looking a bit more into simC, and it appears that in both "mutidoting" simulations I was a bit too "conservative" on the "wait till FS wears out on the 2nd target before reapplying", which meant "only" 180% uptime on flame shock in both case (178% and 179%). Adding the "you might also refresh FS if there is less than one tick worth of it on the secondary target (ie try to use dot clipping)" pushed FS uptime to 190%, added ~+500dps but -200 dps on main target.
    (I replaced the line I added
    actions.single+=/flame_shock,cycle_targets=1,if=!ticking&active_enemies<3
    with :
    actions.single+=/flame_shock,cycle_targets=1,if=remains<cooldown+action.flame_shock.tick_time&active_enemie s<3
    )
    Last edited by Bethan; 2013-04-04 at 12:18 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Bethan View Post
    2pt14, 2pt15, 517ilevel, echo, EB (everything same as few posts above)

    solo : 126 663 dps
    multi : 130 248 dps
    damage on main target when multidoting : 123 595 dps

    edit : tried looking a bit more into simC, and it appears that in both "mutidoting" simulations I was a bit too "conservative" on the "wait till FS wears out on the 2nd target before reapplying", which meant "only" 180% uptime on flame shock in both case (178% and 179%). Adding the "you might also refresh FS if there is less than one tick worth of it on the secondary target (ie try to use dot clipping)" pushed FS uptime to 190%, added ~+500dps but -200 dps on main target.
    (I replaced the line I added
    actions.single+=/flame_shock,cycle_targets=1,if=!ticking&active_enemies<3
    with :
    actions.single+=/flame_shock,cycle_targets=1,if=remains<cooldown+action.flame_shock.tick_time&active_enemie s<3
    )
    Thanks Bethan, this is perfectly illustrating the effect. Your numbers will be higher if you do it PERFECTLY, but your actual damage on the main target will dip a bit. And of course, this is assuming they stay up for entire durations of Flame Shock in the first place.

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