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  1. #1

    Diseases + Maths?

    So I'm posting because I know there are a few people lurking here with the maths skills to know how to figure out what i'm after.

    I am trying to work out at what point it's worth using BB over a HS to refresh a stronger set of diseases. Currently, using DKDoT's i've been refreshing when i'm getting a 10%+ increase and trying to maintain that set of diseases as long as possible before I lose the boss due to tank swap etc.

    My question is, at what point does it become a DPS increase (assuming at least 20 secs of 'stronger' diseases) to refresh using BB instead of just slamming HS? Is there an easy way to work it out or is the question so complex it's not worth looking into it due to the scaling of vengeance?

  2. #2
    dots deal dmg based on your current stats, not your stats when you applied the dots (they used to a long time ago iirc)
    so you should only 'force' refresh them right before the run out, you should use BB on procs (to refresh) other than that only if they are about to run out

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by daluur View Post
    dots deal dmg based on your current stats, not your stats when you applied the dots (they used to a long time ago iirc)
    DKs are special, our diseases still snapshot our stats at application.
    Last edited by Kiqjaq; 2013-04-03 at 03:23 PM.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Keile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiqjaq View Post
    DKs are special, our diseases still snapshot our stats at application.
    So we are still like that...good, then that means I haven't been wasting my time by reapplying Outbreak (or BB with proc) with procs XD
    There is a thin line between not knowing and not caring, and I like to think that I walk that line every day.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiqjaq View Post
    DKs are special, our diseases still snapshot our stats at application.
    everyones DoTs snapshot, not just DKs

  6. #6
    No dots updates during their duration if you alter your stats as far as I know.
    Bleeds, magic dots or diseases, they all use snapshot.
    Make sense too, would be so much extra data being sent client/server wise.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    No dots updates during their duration if you alter your stats as far as I know.
    Bleeds, magic dots or diseases, they all use snapshot.
    Make sense too, would be so much extra data being sent client/server wise.

    Correct. The only thing that makes us unique is that we can extend dots outside of actually re-applying them. Being able to extend them indefinitely is why the Festerblight playstyle actually works. The initial application takes our powered up stats, and extended the duration causes those stats to continue to roll the whole way.

    It's fairly OP it turns out, and I'd expect FE to get tweaked some time down the road.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by RedFlame View Post
    everyones DoTs snapshot, not just DKs
    Oh right, I was thinking of resnapshotting at extensions.

  9. #9
    Glad we got that cleared up... but does anyone have an answer to my question?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by RedFlame View Post
    everyones DoTs snapshot, not just DKs
    Correct, simple example is attack the mobs on Isle of Thunder that drop the 100% crit chance rune on the ground, apply a dot outside, then step inside. It won't crit 100%. Apply the dot inside and step out though, and it will crit 100%

  11. #11
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damyou View Post
    Glad we got that cleared up... but does anyone have an answer to my question?
    Nope. There's two many variables and unknown values.
    Time left on old diseases
    Time new diseases will remain
    DpS of old diseases
    Weapon used
    Vengeance stack
    Crit Chance
    Base AP
    Number of Buffs/Debuffs present

    If any of those shifts the outcome gets influenced...

  12. #12
    I installed DKDots some days ago and I have regretted it :P I see so many times the green thingy but as frost I cannot justify the runes to refresh stronger dots. I might cast an outbreak if off CD. I really wonder if even for normal UH rotation it is worth it to do a plague strike and refresh stronger dots.

    P.S. bold was used in order to avoid answers of the type "festerblight does ...". I am not talking about festerblight!

  13. #13
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    I installed DKDots some days ago and I have regretted it :P I see so many times the green thingy but as frost I cannot justify the runes to refresh stronger dots. I might cast an outbreak if off CD. I really wonder if even for normal UH rotation it is worth it to do a plague strike and refresh stronger dots.

    P.S. bold was used in order to avoid answers of the type "festerblight does ...". I am not talking about festerblight!
    It depends on how much more stronger would be the "new" diseases but as UH I think you should reapply them. As frost you really don't care about BP since FF get refreshed at least everytime you got a rime proc.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    I installed DKDots some days ago and I have regretted it :P I see so many times the green thingy but as frost I cannot justify the runes to refresh stronger dots. I might cast an outbreak if off CD. I really wonder if even for normal UH rotation it is worth it to do a plague strike and refresh stronger dots.

    P.S. bold was used in order to avoid answers of the type "festerblight does ...". I am not talking about festerblight!
    It seems like it will be very gear dependant. Only blood and unholy would really have any benefit from doing it, due to disease extension, through blood boil for blood spec, and festering strike for unholy.

    I'm getting fairly good results refreshing diseases with a full stack of feather+spark proc and the rune enchant as unholy at least, and not going the festerblight route. I might get better results from festerblight, but so few encounters in throne really lend themselves to that playstyle.

  15. #15
    Way too many variables for a universal rule. I'd say the only times you'd be guaranteed to get a dps increase is ensuring that you refresh your diseases a few seconds after a tank swap for near max vengeance and attempting to hold out on refreshing diseases for as long as possible after a tank swap. This should provide near max up time on high vengeance dots. Beyond that the dps gain is not really worth the attention that could be devoted to surviving/positioning/other tanking variables.

  16. #16
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    It seems like it will be very gear dependant. Only blood and unholy would really have any benefit from doing it, due to disease extension, through blood boil for blood spec, and festering strike for unholy.

    I'm getting fairly good results refreshing diseases with a full stack of feather+spark proc and the rune enchant as unholy at least, and not going the festerblight route. I might get better results from festerblight, but so few encounters in throne really lend themselves to that playstyle.
    WARNING, I'M ABOUT TO PULL SOME NUMBERS OUT OF MY ARSE

    You're right. As unholy you'll get some decent results even playing with a partial festerblight playstyle where you're using outbreak to refresh buffed diseases, even if they're only at 110% of their original value... Whether or not you sacrifice a scourge strike for a plague strike to re-apply diseases really depends on how big an increase those diseases will be over your existing ones and whether or not you can keep them rolling long enough (fight mechanics permitting) to justify the loss of the scourge strike damage. An average scourge strike, for me (with around 19% crit on physical portion taken into account) does approximately 75k+ damage.

    If the re-application of diseases via plague strike (strike only does about 40k+ damage, for me with crit taken into account) will have a gain over their duration of 40-50k damage then, it's worth re-applying. When Outbreak's off cooldown you can then choose the next apt time to re-apply.

    It's difficult to work out an "exact" recommended time or disease power that you should re-apply...

    If you work on the assumption that outbreak won't be available for 45 seconds (meh, guessing) then both diseases, combined would need to do about 3.5k more damage per tick to make the re-application worth it. So, if DKDOTS shows around "115%" or more (depending on how it actually works that percentage out) and the boss won't become unattackable/immune within a 45second time frame then you can be confident that re-applying would be worth it.

    Again, the nature of trinkets like the Feather is that, after the first application (on the pull) you have no guarantee that it will line up perfectly again with the VP trinket... If DKDOTS shows a significant increase on a non-festerblight encounter and I can re-apply with outbreak then I'll do it. Otherwise it's hit and miss whether or not re-application will see any significant gain.

    As blood it's simply too complicated to work out. Vengeance simply messed with the figures too much.
    Last edited by vmagik; 2013-04-04 at 01:47 PM.
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  17. #17
    Well vengeance was meant to be the variable here so that's the slider I was hoping to use in the equation.

    As I said in the OP, for the sake of argument take 20 secs as the duration of the stronger set of diseases and use the same 20 mark as the duration left on the weaker set.

    If the crit chance remains the same does it have an effect on the calculation? For the sake of ease could that be set at 10% odd.

    Would it be that difficult to model a few different weapon ilvl's? A standard 522 would be a good base I guess.

    Buffs/Debuffs would be the standard full raid set, unless that poses problems.

    I didn't personally think there were that many variables but even if you had static numbers for most of the things you mentioned would it still be too much work to do?

  18. #18
    There is one issue with all of the logic here.... BB refresh resnaps your diseases as blood. In other words, if you want to make high DoTs last longer you need to NOT blood boil if you lost the vengeance you had when you applied them and let them go to almost 0, which includes ignoring CS procs. This is by design and 100% intentional, otherwise we could just keep vengeance dots up for the entire fight, even if we dont have that much vengeance anymore. They don't want this, and made it so we have no choice but to re-snap our dots on refresh as blood.
    Luckily we can still find that equation you are looking for.
    it would be something like:

    damage gained by letting stronger diseases tick = damage from BB lost by not using CS procs + dmg from lost Rune Strikes due to lost RP + dmg from t75 procs lost from lost RP (im just going to assume runic corruption is being used for my sake)

    rewritten:



    where -
    t := the time since application of the old diseases
    D := the strength of the new (weaker) dots (in dmg/second)
    x := how much stronger the old dots are (as in %, so if they are 50% stronger x equals 1.5)
    r := the procs per second for Crimson Scourge
    RS := the damage of Rune Strike
    BB := the damage of Blood Boil
    DS := the damage of Death Strike
    HS := the damage of Heart Strike


    solve for x and you get the % more your old dots have to be before it's a dps gain to leave them and ignore CS procs.

    simplify the equation above:



    factor in the value for r (we will use .55 procs per second, which is a rough but realistic value.) as well as the actual calculations for each ability (this is where we'll get our AP from) and you get:



    Clean it up a bit



    one more polish



    So what does that mean? Well lets use the equation we found in an example. Let's say you had an ilvl 522 weapon and currently had 100k AP.

    x = (.2923*((16395+24594)/2)+.5465*100,000+3946.7)/(121+.3867*100,000) = 1.67%. This means that with a 522 ilvl weapon and 100k current AP, the diseases already on the target would have to be 67% higher than the ones you would apply with your current AP. In terms of DKDots, your diseases would have to be showing that re-applying would put dots up that were 33% the current ones. (aka the number 33 on both the FF abd BP icons). If it's higher than that then it would be a dps loss unless you get really unlucky and don't get many CS procs.

    So obviously you're not going to memorize that equation and calculate it constantly, but you really don't have to. It's not a huge DPS gain to do so, and you do lose RP by not using CS procs regardless of what your old/new diseases look like, which means it always a survivability loss to hold out on CS procs.

    anyway there's your math
    Last edited by Reniat; 2013-04-04 at 04:08 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    anyway there's your math
    motherofgod.jpg

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    anyway there's your math
    Sorry to necro the thread again but I've been busy and I just wanted to say thank you SO MUCH Reniat for being an absolute hero. I can understand enough to get the gist of how the maths works and I really appreciate the effort you went to. Thanks a lot!

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