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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    *Listing examples of over things that don't make sense*

    I'm aware of those things.
    The point is, things won't make 100% sense when Garrosh is removed but that's no reason to purport that they're going to keep him in power just because it would be easier from a game mechanics standpoint.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    *Listing examples of over things that don't make sense*

    I'm aware of those things.
    It's not supposed to make sense or not. They can't rebuild the game over and over again, so they came up with the phasing solution. If phasing resolves the problem on a personal level, why waste resources to recreate Azeroth yet again?

    And, no, game mechanics and limitations shouldn't set the lore. Those that really care about it are smart enough to know the reasons and/or read about it. Garrosh is a goner and game limitations (there are none with phasing, really) isn't going to stop that.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    I want garrosh to win
    You do know its because of Garrosh that the forsaken attacked Gilneas right? Stood there for years and the forsaken left it alone, Garrosh takes power, orders them to take the land for a port.

    I honestly thought you'd remember that.

  4. #64
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    It's not supposed to make sense or not. They can't rebuild the game over and over again, so they came up with the phasing solution. If phasing resolves the problem on a personal level, why waste resources to recreate Azeroth yet again?

    And, no, game mechanics and limitations shouldn't set the lore. Those that really care about it are smart enough to know the reasons and/or read about it. Garrosh is a goner and game limitations (there are none with phasing, really) isn't going to stop that.
    They already do. By having two factions that have to be at war with each other. The story is already restricted in many ways.

    However I'm not saying that they shouldn't let Garrosh die because of that, just wondering how easy it will be to deal with in game.

    "There are already things that don't make sense, so let's screw it over some more" is not a good argument.

    In fact Blizzard cares a lot about that whole messed up timeline thing, and they said that they would like to fix it at some point.

  5. #65
    The Insane GennGreymane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You do know its because of Garrosh that the forsaken attacked Gilneas right? Stood there for years and the forsaken left it alone, Garrosh takes power, orders them to take the land for a port.

    I honestly thought you'd remember that.
    from an RP perspective he can die in a fire

    from a outsider looking in.... its interesting. also the rebellion is not going to out number garrosh (with out the alliance) or have the resources (again with out the alliance)

    a lot of people jsut assume

    trolls, b elves, tauren, forsaken, some orcs

    orcs, goblins

    4.5 v 2 omg rebels win

    i think the forsaken will be token support to the winning rebels at the end, but not really assist either side. also garrosh certainly has supporters in the rebelling factions. plus most of the orcs, goblins, his northrend beast resources, and based on that habit, the hozen and other pandaria stuff

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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    What if we don't actually kill him. In fact, when I think about it, it would be a bit weird for the game to have a different warchief at some point. They would either have to use phases to make it work, or it will feel weird to have a certain warchief greeting you in Orgrimmar at level 1, and then having so much story about Garrosh in the zones, even up to Pandaria. Sure, technically that is in the past, but will they then only make you see the new warchief in Orgrimmar when you're 90? Or 91-95? What will happen when patch 5.4 releases, will Garrosh still stand around in Orgrimmar?
    Happens all of the time. You can visit Theramore and it's still standing. You can visit Northrend and the Lich Kings still popping up doing his thing.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    They already do. By having two factions that have to be at war with each other. The story is already restricted in many ways.

    However I'm not saying that they shouldn't let Garrosh die because of that, just wondering how easy it will be to deal with in game.

    "There are already things that don't make sense, so let's screw it over some more" is not a good argument.

    In fact Blizzard cares a lot about that whole messed up timeline thing, and they said that they would like to fix it at some point.
    It's their preferred response. "We can't make the lore make sense consistently without remaking the entire game each expansion, so you'll just have to deal with it" has been an MMO staple since the third expansion to any MMO.

    And you misunderstood what they said. They said they would, in a world with unlimited resources, love to rework Outland and Northrend to bring them in line with the timeline, but the resources simply don't exists. They did mention that Outland would likely get revamped when we see the Burning Legion again.

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  8. #68
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    They already do. By having two factions that have to be at war with each other. The story is already restricted in many ways.

    However I'm not saying that they shouldn't let Garrosh die because of that, just wondering how easy it will be to deal with in game.

    "There are already things that don't make sense, so let's screw it over some more" is not a good argument.

    In fact Blizzard cares a lot about that whole messed up timeline thing, and they said that they would like to fix it at some point.
    No I really need to step in and say its just wrong trying to base the story around the games mechanics. In the lore, the books and comics, characters cross faction speak to one another, even if its hated enemies like Garrosh and Varian, they can still speak to one another, where as ingame, it doesn't happen, or at least from a mechanic pov.

    you learn to look past it. Rhonin is still the leader of dalaran in northrend and the lich king is still the lich king there. Illidan is still waiting for you to face him in outland.

    You just learn to get beyond it. The only time blizzard has ever done something that felt coherent was when deathwing destroyed azeroth and the way the zones timeline meet up to those events. Yet outland and northrend were still stuck in the past.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    from an RP perspective he can die in a fire

    from a outsider looking in.... its interesting. also the rebellion is not going to out number garrosh (with out the alliance) or have the resources (again with out the alliance)

    a lot of people jsut assume

    trolls, b elves, tauren, forsaken, some orcs

    orcs, goblins

    4.5 v 2 omg rebels win

    i think the forsaken will be token support to the winning rebels at the end, but not really assist either side. also garrosh certainly has supporters in the rebelling factions. plus most of the orcs, goblins, his northrend beast resources, and based on that habit, the hozen and other pandaria stuff
    Notably, however, the entire alliance can be added to the rebel side, since, once again, we're uniting in face of a common enemy.

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  10. #70
    The Insane GennGreymane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysia View Post
    Notably, however, the entire alliance can be added to the rebel side, since, once again, we're uniting in face of a common enemy.
    that will be the key factor the horde rebels will need the alliance

    now here is the poor story telling point

    i am 100% sure the alliance will give 100% backing to the rebels under no conditions to prevent future issues again, which is bad story telling

    there should be conditions signed by vol'jin that add to the plot for future xpacks. maybe they are sucky conditions who knows

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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    that will be the key factor the horde rebels will need the alliance

    now here is the poor story telling point

    i am 100% sure the alliance will give 100% backing to the rebels under no conditions to prevent future issues again, which is bad story telling

    there should be conditions signed by vol'jin that add to the plot for future xpacks. maybe they are sucky conditions who knows
    I think you won't see the concessions since you are seeing Varian change so much of his attitude since Cataclysm.

    Obviously, from most of the Alliances standpoint, we should sit back and watch the Horde tear itself apart.

    However, from the eyes of Anduin, and increasingly Varian, allowing the chance that Garrosh would win may be unacceptable.

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  12. #72
    The Insane GennGreymane's Avatar
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    or the alliance could

    give supplies

    watch the shit hit the fan

    kill the winner if its garrosh
    make vol'jin agree to stuff under the threat of the alliance army

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  13. #73
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    Yes, dog walking is not allowed beyond the gilnean wall.

    One can not resist *stirs tea well raising his nose and snorts*

    But this entire thing will boil down to a common fold where both sides have an outcome, its not just 'the horde needs the alliance', its also that the alliance needs the horde, since they wouldn't be able to take Garrosh's forces alone either.

    Garrosh will obviously have something cooked up to make strong argument here, the psycho has the heart of an old god (I think he has it), probably sha contained in boxes, the most savage loyal kor'kron, and god knows what else.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    It's more subtle there.
    How is him without the title and having a very different personality subtle? It's a large flip-flop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    *Listing examples of over things that don't make sense*

    I'm aware of those things.
    So why can't they do that with Garrosh? What makes him so special?

    The argument of "this has happened before so we can let it continue" isn't one out of laziness... it is born out of necessity. You can't just rewrite all the quests every time something significant happens that makes them obsolete. They wouldn't have time to make new content.

    In a perfect world, sure, it'd be nice, but this isn't a perfect world. Blizzard has to choose between creating new lore and gameplay and editing gameplay for the sake of lore, and like any smart company they choose the former (with exception where editing previous gameplay allows for new lore and new gameplay like with the Cata revision). Editing older content takes significant resources, resources that Blizzard is unable to use to constantly edit obsolete gameplay.

    If anything, the argument "Well it's outdated and it clashes with lore continuity" should be discounted because it's simply not feasible to constantly edit an MMO, one which features thousands of quests, hundreds of different kinds of creatures and dozens of unique plotlines, even just once an expansion.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    What if we don't actually kill him. In fact, when I think about it, it would be a bit weird for the game to have a different warchief at some point.
    It's ok. You don't need to kill him.

    We'll fucking kill Garrosh.

    Hordies never did anything useful anyway, don't expect them to start now.

  16. #76
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erto View Post
    Happens all of the time. You can visit Theramore and it's still standing. You can visit Northrend and the Lich Kings still popping up doing his thing.
    Those are moments where we are in the past, it doesn't work that easily with a warchief. What happens with PvP raids for example? Let's say you have a raid with level 90s and level 85s, and they all want to kill the orc leader. Are they in different phases now? Will there be 2 different achievements?

    Technical issues have to be kept in mind when making such decisions. In the game there is not one example of a leader switch at a certain level. All the other leader switches in Cataclysm were done at launch for everyone, no matter what level.

    You have to at least invest some thought into it.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Those are moments where we are in the past, it doesn't work that easily with a warchief. What happens with PvP raids for example? Let's say you have a raid with level 90s and level 85s, and they all want to kill the orc leader. Are they in different phases now? Will there be 2 different achievements?

    Technical issues have to be kept in mind when making such decisions. In the game there is not one example of a leader switch at a certain level. All the other leader switches in Cataclysm were done at launch for everyone, no matter what level.

    You have to at least invest some thought into it.
    They'll edit Orgrimmar for all characters regardless of level, as it's still relevant. They'll edit still relevant quests (such as the DK intro quest where you're sent to Orgrimmar) to reflect that.

    I think you're over-complicating the issue, when really, there isn't one to begin with..

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Those are moments where we are in the past, it doesn't work that easily with a warchief. What happens with PvP raids for example? Let's say you have a raid with level 90s and level 85s, and they all want to kill the orc leader. Are they in different phases now? Will there be 2 different achievements?

    Technical issues have to be kept in mind when making such decisions. In the game there is not one example of a leader switch at a certain level. All the other leader switches in Cataclysm were done at launch for everyone, no matter what level.

    You have to at least invest some thought into it.
    There is no purpose in phasing Orgrimmar outside of the very few places it is currently phased, as I don't recall any quests that Garrosh sends you on from the Orgrimmar throne room.

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  19. #79
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    Hellscream will die to saurfangs axe to his forhead. After what his done to the Trolls there is no way you can let him live let alone what his done to the other races of the horde and alliance. How many Orcs needlessly died by his orders? When they could have been getting ready for the legion coming back. Even without the black princes word you would already know they are on there way it was only a few years ago they tried to get in from the sunwell again.
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  20. #80
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    How is him without the title and having a very different personality subtle? It's a large flip-flop.



    So why can't they do that with Garrosh? What makes him so special?

    The argument of "this has happened before so we can let it continue" isn't one out of laziness... it is born out of necessity. You can't just rewrite all the quests every time something significant happens that makes them obsolete. They wouldn't have time to make new content.

    In a perfect world, sure, it'd be nice, but this isn't a perfect world. Blizzard has to choose between creating new lore and gameplay and editing gameplay for the sake of lore, and like any smart company they choose the former (with exception where editing previous gameplay allows for new lore and new gameplay like with the Cata revision). Editing older content takes significant resources, resources that Blizzard is unable to use to constantly edit obsolete gameplay.

    If anything, the argument "Well it's outdated and it clashes with lore continuity" should be discounted because it's simply not feasible to constantly edit an MMO, one which features thousands of quests, hundreds of different kinds of creatures and dozens of unique plotlines, even just once an expansion.
    With Thrall there wasn't much he did in Outland, and to this day I've never even done the questline with him. With Garrosh it's all over the place in Catalclysm, MoP, in the 1-60 zones and in Pandaria.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-03 at 10:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    They'll edit Orgrimmar for all characters regardless of level, as it's still relevant. They'll edit still relevant quests (such as the DK intro quest where you're sent to Orgrimmar) to reflect that.

    I think you're over-complicating the issue, when really, there isn't one to begin with..
    Then there are even more issues. You will have new players leveling through zones, fighting for a warchief that is already dead. I'm not saying they won't do it, I'm just saying it screws up a lot.
    Last edited by Nindoriel; 2013-04-03 at 10:38 PM.

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