What if we don't kill Garrosh, and he'll remain Warchief?

[Deleted]

Then what's the problem with phasing a NPC at the right level?

Heck, they are phasing Org in 5.3.

There is no problem with phasing, I just don't think they will phase a faction leader.

---------- Post added 2013-04-03 at 11:12 PM ----------

You said that the opinion of "Well these sorts of things (referring to messed up timelines and the like) have been done before so they can be done again" wasn't a valid one to have. I've explained that such an opinion rises from the necessity of the act, as it would be impossible for Blizzard to both edit previous content so lore had perfect (or even near-perfect) continuity as well as maintain the stream of new content they are providing with each patch and expansion. I want to know why that is not a valid opinion to have.



Yes you do.

Once an expansion comes out, the previous expansion's events are now in the past. All of the enemies that were defeated are no longer a present threat... because they were defeated prior to the NEW present (I.E. the current expansion). If you create a character and go through those events while leveling, you're experiencing something that already happened as far as the lore and story are concerned.

Only for a high level character. And like I said that's not the normal leveling flow. No one is send baclk at level 90 to do a level 90 quest in Northrend. A level 70 character questing through Northrend is perfectly normal.

[Chrysia]

I know that the timeline is screwed up, it's no reason to screw it up more. Blizzard said they hate it too, and they want to eventually go back and fix it. Why would they then screw it up some more.

And I'll mention again, that you took that quote out of context. They said, if they had the resources, they would love to fix the timeline. Those resources simply do not exist. They do what they can to make things make pseudo-sense, and for the rest, they move the story forward.

And you still haven't answered my question. Have you actually ever seen a city raid that took anyone significantly below max level? Because I haven't.

[Deleted]

It's not about what tech is used, it's about how it is used and on what. I know phasing. It's been around since WotLK. The concept is somewhat familiar to me. There is not one example where a faction leader just disappears when you hit a certain level, to be replaced by a different NPC. Of course they can phase a different leader in at level 90, but there can be problems with that.

For example, like I mentioned before, what happens if Alliance players want to raid the orc leader, and there are people of different level in the group. What happens with the achievements, will there be one for Garrosh and one for the new warchief?

I don't think they will have 2 warchiefs in the game at different times.

Phasing. They raided the new Warchief. It's simple as type:

"Alliance_PC" or "Horde_PC => 90" = "Gromash Phase 2"

[Chrysia]

Only for a high level character. And like I said that's not the normal leveling flow. No one is send baclk at level 90 to do a level 90 quest in Northrend. A level 70 character questing through Northrend is perfectly normal.

A level 70 character that spent his first 60 levels learning about the incredible threat of Deathwing, all while learning next-to-nothing about the Burning Legion, and has had several references made to the fact that the Scourge is now a minor problem to be mopped up. The inconsistencies do exist, even if you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore those.

[TheAmazingFeedz]

Nope. Unless they rework the old world AGAIN to reflect the new changes and new storylines. Which I doubt they have any time for without a very good reason.

So either:
- You'll see the new Warchief being reworked into the older zones, which screws up the storylines. Can you imagine leveling a Goblin and you rescue Thrall, only to report to the new Warchief Thrall that he's been saved? Or can you imagine Lor'themar ordering the Horde airships to attack the Alliance so recklessly in the Twilight Highlands intro? Can you imagine Vol'jin throwing a guy off a cliff? Yeah...

- Or the Warchief randomly changes person at lvl 95 while keeping the leveling zones intact. This seems the most likely, but it screws with continuity.
People will really wonder "Where did this guy come from? Wtf?" kinda like with Deathwing. So seeing how most people thought Deathwing was a lame boss because they didn't know him, people will also think the new Warchief is lame unless you get to know him during the leveling experience.

Yeah, I don't think there's an easy solution.

The switch in Wrath that brought Varian back was relatively easy because Bolvar wasn't featured in many quests. They only had to rework a little bit (the Onyxia questchain was the hardest part). With Garrosh they need to rework quite a lot of zones.

Not knowing Deathwing? Deathwing was in lore for quite a while now, even before Cataclysm..

[The Madgod]

Only for a high level character. And like I said that's not the normal leveling flow. No one is send baclk at level 90 to do a level 90 quest in Northrend. A level 70 character questing through Northrend is perfectly normal.

No, not for high level characters.

For all characters.

The events of the DK starting zone take place just slightly before Wrath, when the majority of the threats (if not all the threats) presented in TBC were resolved.

Worgen and Goblins become playable right after the Cataclysm occurred (as in the beginning of the expansion). Gilneas is a great example. If they were shut off behind the wall when TBC and Wrath happened, how can they experience them "when they happened?"

Pandaren become playable after the events of Cata and right at the beginning of the events of Mists. Again, if those pandaren were on their turtle while other races were fighting the Lich King and Illidan and the like, how can they experience those events in "real time?"

The simple answer is that you can't. This is common knowledge. To deny this is basically to deny that there's a cohesive timeline in Warcraft, which is simply false.

And you haven't explained why those opinions I presented are invalid. I'm incredibly curious to see why you think that.

[Deleted]

A level 70 character that spent his first 60 levels learning about the incredible threat of Deathwing, all while learning next-to-nothing about the Burning Legion, and has had several references made to the fact that the Scourge is now a minor problem to be mopped up. The inconsistencies do exist, even if you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore those.

I misinterpreted what you wrote. Yeah that was the problem with the Cataclysm zones, and it's exactly why I don't want more such things. It's fuzzy enough.

[Chrysia]

I misinterpreted what you wrote. Yeah that was the problem with the Cataclysm zones, and it's exactly why I don't want more such things. It's fuzzy enough.

And again, Blizzard would love to clear it up, but the resources aren't there. In the meantime, they have to move the story forward. Consistency is the sacrifice. They'll do what they always do. Phase, and move on.

[The Madgod]

I misinterpreted what you wrote. Yeah that was the problem with the Cataclysm zones, and it's exactly why I don't want more such things. It's fuzzy enough.

It's not fuzzy. It's VERY simple. I could explain it to an eight year old and he or she would get it.

The events of 1-58/60 and 80-85 happen after the events of 58/60-68/70 and 68/70-80 because they were introduced in later expansions. The events of 85-90 happen after all of those again for the same reason.

[Deleted]

It's not fuzzy. It's VERY simple. I could explain it to an eight year old and he or she would get it.

Wait, now you're saying the messed up timeline makes sense?

[Chrysia]

Wait, now you're saying the messed up timeline makes sense?

No, he's saying that "at this point, because they didn't want to add in a bunch of level 60-80 content, your character basically goes back in time for a bit to deal with shit that's already gone down. Ignore it and press on."

It's fuzzy if you don't know, but if someone just mentions that, boom, it's clear enough.

[Deleted]

And again, Blizzard would love to clear it up, but the resources aren't there. In the meantime, they have to move the story forward. Consistency is the sacrifice. They'll do what they always do. Phase, and move on.

They stated in the past that they want to eventually update Outland and Northrend, and I doubt they are going to screw up the Cataclysm zones now that they've created such and interesting land coherent eveling experience.

[The Madgod]

Wait, now you're saying the messed up timeline makes sense?

Yes, because it's not messed up.

The timeline is fine. There's no flaw in it. Speaking purely from lore, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. It goes from A to B to C to D flawlessly.

The timeline as experienced in-game is less so, but it's still very easy to explain. I've been helping new players for a long time. It's not that hard to understand.

[Deleted]

No, he's saying that "at this point, because they didn't want to add in a bunch of level 60-80 content, your character basically goes back in time for a bit to deal with shit that's already gone down. Ignore it and press on."

It's fuzzy if you don't know, but if someone just mentions that, boom, it's clear enough.

Of course it's not a complicated concept, but it's still messed up. It's not hard to explain the Eredar retcon either, but that doesn't make it good or logical.

---------- Post added 2013-04-03 at 11:26 PM ----------

Yes, because it's not messed up.

The timeline is fine. There's no flaw in it. Speaking purely from lore, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

The timeline as experienced in-game is less so, but it's still very easy to explain. I've been helping new players for a long time. It's not that hard to understand.

It's not about it being hard to understand, it's just unpretty.

[Chrysia]

They stated in the past that they want to eventually update Outland and Northrend, and I doubt they are going to screw up the Cataclysm zones now that they've created such and interesting land coherent eveling experience.

And, again, you are taking that quote out of context. They have repeatedly stated that someday they would like to be able to expend the resources to update Outland and Northrend, yes, but the resources don't exist. The Cataclysm story already has inconsistencies, especially for Pandaren characters. They won't stop moving the lore forward just to protect the in-game lore flow.

[DarkTZeratul]

That is moot. But then people have said this about nearly every final boss since Illidan.

No, I meant what's the point of the Siege of Orgrimmar if Garrosh remains warchief afterwards? It'd be like ascending Icecrown Citadel and battling the Lich King, only to have Arthas still be controlling the Scourge after the final battle.

[Deleted]

And, again, you are taking that quote out of context. They have repeatedly stated that someday they would like to be able to expend the resources to update Outland and Northrend, yes, but the resources don't exist. The Cataclysm story already has inconsistencies, especially for Pandaren characters. They won't stop moving the lore forward just to protect the in-game lore flow.

For all we know, they are working on something like that for the next expansion. Outland revamp for a new Legion exapsnion, Northrend revamp for an expansion that deals with Bolvar. How can you say there are no resources for that.

[Mandible]

They aren´t going to have a revolt within the horde without removing Garrosh as leader - wether he actually dies remains to be seen (though he would at least be cast from the horde together with all those still staying with him).

[The Madgod]

Of course it's not a complicated concept, but it's still messed up. It's not hard to explain the Eredar retcon either, but that doesn't make it good or logical.

There's nothing wrong with the Eredar retcon apart from it being a retcon, which people seem to innately dislike.

It's not about being hard to understand, it's just unpretty.

So in other words you don't have any other reason to make this thread apart from "Well... I think it's icky that they're moving forward without cleaning up in their wake?" An idea, mind, that has no real basis in realistic MMO game development and doesn't matter to the majority of other players because they have the ability to distance themselves from the idea that as you level you're experiencing the true timeline of the world as a whole, uninterrupted.

[Deleted]

Monk trainers. They appeared from nowhere with MoP, yet lorewise they were always there.

Does it make sense gamewise? No. But we have to simply accept it.