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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    For CM, +10% or *1.1 are the same.

    .------+-----+-----+-----.
    | Crit | 20% | 30% | 40% |
    +------+-----+-----+-----+
    | *1.3 | 26% | 40% | 52% |
    | Diff | 06% | 10% | 12% |
    +------+-----+-----+-----+
    | +10% | 30% | 40% | 50% |
    | Diff | 10% | 10% | 10% |
    '------+-----+-----+-----'


    *1.3 (or *1.1) - multiplier - scales with crit gear, while a flat +10% - addition - does not. Therefore I propose the latter.
    Last edited by Milamber; 2013-04-04 at 12:38 PM.
    Sha of *Gay* Pride!

  2. #22
    Lvl 90 talents - not much more to say that hasn't already been said. They have to go.

    Lvl 15 talents - those just feel odd. PoM is the odd man out. Blazing Speed ... OK but not really satisfactory. Ice Floes no one takes. Blizzard really needs to clearly define what Mages are suppose to do for movement intensive fights. Specing Fire for Scorch seem to be the only way to do Durumu.

    Bombs ... not a fan but kind of a necessity now. Our only respectable source of damage when we can't cast much.


    Pet Peeves :

    WE summon should be instant. Adding the cast time was totally unnecessary.
    WE needs to be more durable and the cast while moving ability should be built in - the "follow me at all times" behaviour when you put the WE in Assist mode /w glyph, should be made into a minor glyph.

    At the very least fix the bug with no GCD spells together with GCD spells macros so we can marco PoM with WE summon - it only works when you are stand still, else you have to hit it twice.
    Last edited by SodiumChloride; 2013-04-04 at 12:06 PM.

  3. #23
    Revert spell steal mana cost for fire and frost, bring back poly-stun for arcane. Mage good to go

  4. #24
    I am not a big fan of having a water elemental out the entire time. idk, wish there was a variation to it or something.

  5. #25
    Random mage ideas GO!

    Simpler AOE rotations. I'm sick of luck based/12 step/hope frost orb is on cooldown AOEing (hyperbole? Yes.)

    Synergy! Perhaps each spec's nuke stacks a debuff that increases damage taken by that school of magic?

    Get rid of some of the luck dependency! Make combustion a flat dot or dependent on the number of dots on target. Give heating up a flat chance to proc.

    Differentiate fire and frost more. They are getting VERY similar at this point: nuke while fishing for procs. I don't really like the CRIT over lap between the two specs. I honestly wouldn't mind if the whole shatter/Ice lance system was replaced. Maybe frost becomes more about control, it uses a stacking debuff system that builds to a FROZEN state where your spells do double damage?

    Ditch the level 90 talents and give us ability choices that give a straight up damage increase! Something that feels magey and powerful and AWESOME when you use it!

    The complexity that keeps us playing should come from the encounters and not crappy minigame class design.
    Let Reason Prevail

  6. #26
    I think the strength of mastery is at the root of Arcane's problems.

    Arcane is supposed to be about intelligently converting mana into damage. In BC and (in a more interesting way) in Wrath that was achieved by trying to finish the fight with 0 mana (or mid fight by trying get to 40% mana exactly as your evocation came up). To do that we picked through different combinations of cycles, learning the fight and the opportunities to cast and navigating rng mana returns. It was an interesting game and it played very differently to pretty much any other spec out there. It also allowed us to dump out insane burst when the fight called for it at the cost of an overall less efficient performance. We could compensate for high movement by dumping more damage in the small windows when we were stationary and conserving more while moving. Again at a cost of some overall efficiency compared to a patchwerk situation.

    The problem with this was that it allowed for unparalleled damage in short fights where you could just treat the whole thing as a burst window. This lead to the one button spec reputation and made Blizzard very nervous because single target stationary burst in small windows was just too powerful a niche to be so dominated at the time.

    So they introduced mastery, which seemed clever at first. Now you wanted to convert mana to damage, but you couldn't do it freely because the loss of mana also brought down our dps. It was a clever feedback loop bringing us back to the middle. In cata this found a middle ground by being weak enough that you still wanted to burn when you had CDs and evocation available to bring you back up, but couldn't sustain it over the long term. So we entered the burn/conserve rotation. I never loved this because depending so much on the burn for your damage meant that you were screwed if you got RNGed by a boss during a burn. But at least it held some of the flavor. Finding the rotation that kept you at full mana wasn't as interesting as finding the combination of rotations that drained mana just quickly enough, but it was something.

    Unfortunately the burst potential remained a problem, so we get to MoP and they upped the effect of mastery and reduced the output potential. Now loss of mana hurts so badly and burn is so weak that you never want to burn at all. Everything just becomes static. You can't burn the boss during a critical window. You don't have any decisions to make about finding a cycle to use up just enough mana. You just cast a static rotation while trying to maintain the buffs necessary for your mana regen.

    I think the whole mastery path was a wrong turn. Personally, I'd prefer they redesigned the arcane mastery completely so that it didn't conflict with our desire to spend mana. Instead they should make arcane mages more like rogues. Make mana for us a fast spending fast regenerating resource that we're always trying to dump before it regens back and caps out. Preferably this would involve making meaningful, dynamic choices about our rotation so we didn't either run dry for a spell or cap out at full.

    It would make arcane mages quick and exciting to play and it would solve many of their fundamental problems. Movement would be aided in much the way that time off target is aided for rogues. We could dump all our mana, then move while it filled back up and return to a stationary window full and ready to deal a little extra damage for the next few seconds, making up for movement time before returning to a steady state rotation. (Much like the old system, this wouldn't be quite as efficient as if we'd just been standing still, but it would help even things out.) However since everything would be happening on a much quicker, sub-minute time scale, burst potential wouldn't be so bad. No fight would be so short that it could be just burst. And if boss RNG screwed up your cycle, it wouldn't be 1/3rd of the fight down the drain, just a small fraction. You'd get to try again in a few seconds.

    Obviously this would be a huge change and not without problems, but I think it is a better direction in solving the arcane mage problem than the mastery corner we've been painted into. As a side benefit, I'd like to see mastery become a powerful, but tertiary stat for all specs, with arcane going back to preferring haste (or even crit). That way all three specs would go back to preferring haste mixed with crit (or crit mixed with haste) with mastery providing a lovely bonus tacked on after. This would make spec switches much less unpleasant.

  7. #27
    Alright, here goes my fray into all of this. I do like that you guys are voicing complaints, but let's try to get actual implementable ideas rolling through here so we can discuss and possibly get a comprehensive list going at some point.

    Anyway, the first idea I've had goes to Frost.

    Originally Posted by MMO-Champion

    Mage (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
    • *NEW* Glacial Blast
      35 yard range 5% base mana
      Blast the target with biting cold, dealing X Frost damage and slowing the target's movement and attack speed by 40% for Y seconds. If a Frostbolt debuff is present on the target, Glacial Blast will refresh the duration and spread the debuff to Z targets within 15 yards. Glacial Blast will always treat the target as if it were frozen. Instant Cast. 6 second cooldown.

  8. #28
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Swizzle-I View Post
    Alright, here goes my fray into all of this. I do like that you guys are voicing complaints, but let's try to get actual implementable ideas rolling through here so we can discuss and possibly get a comprehensive list going at some point.

    Anyway, the first idea I've had goes to Frost.

    Originally Posted by MMO-Champion

    Mage (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
    • *NEW* Glacial Blast
      35 yard range 5% base mana
      Blast the target with biting cold, dealing X Frost damage and slowing the target's movement and attack speed by 40% for Y seconds. If a Frostbolt debuff is present on the target, Glacial Blast will refresh the duration and spread the debuff to Z targets within 15 yards. Glacial Blast will always treat the target as if it were frozen. Instant Cast. 6 second cooldown.
    Not bad but :
    • another instant
    • 35 yr limited

    Why don't simply let FFB refresh the debuff too. And a 6s CD will overlap with FFB if used with Frost Bomb. But it's ok if it's to replace FFB.
    The answers is 42
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  9. #29
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Make mana for us a fast spending fast regenerating resource that we're always trying to dump before it regens back and caps out.
    From what I saw Energy Regen for Rogues isn't that great and they have to wait a bit to start using attacks again or so I've seen. The Mana regen for Mages seem to be great. Arcane has a lot of regen due to the spec but it might need more internally to match your concept. If that's what you're wanting anyways. Not sure if that's what you meant. Either that or revamp Mages alltogether.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

  10. #30
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    From what I saw Energy Regen for Rogues isn't that great and they have to wait a bit to start using attacks again or so I've seen. The Mana regen for Mages seem to be great. Arcane has a lot of regen due to the spec but it might need more internally to match your concept. If that's what you're wanting anyways. Not sure if that's what you meant. Either that or revamp Mages alltogether.
    More like Wizard in D3, I think.
    The answers is 42
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    Nathyiel, TempteÐ (sargeras-EU) - @Nathyiel

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    More like Wizard in D3, I think.
    That's a good comparison point. I didn't mean rogues exactly as they work, just the concept of spending and regenning rotationally rather than a small handful of times over the course of a fight, combined with a return to a system where you want to spend it all because not spending it is a lost opportunity for more damage.

    But I do agree it is a much larger overhaul than we're likely to see. I just worry that without some major changes, mastery has us backed into a corner that the smaller tweaks we're likely to get won't save us from long term.

  12. #32
    I love the arcane spec, so my ideas are for arcane.

    Idea nr.1: Mastery remains the same, but arcane mages mana regeneration (including evocation, mana gem, etc) would be increased depending how much mana we miss. That way you could have burst, we could recover much easier from a mistake, but low bonus from mastery would prevent us spamming ABs only.

    Idea nr.2: Mastery should increase mana regen, not damage: more mastery=more agressive cycles. I admit its not a good idea, as arcane would be bad in the start of a new expansion and could be god at the end.

  13. #33
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    More like Wizard in D3, I think.
    This; what makes the Arcane Power system in D3 rather elegant is that you have an interchange between the signature spells and the heavy hitters, with the former generating power and the latter spending it. The current problem with Arcane is that there is no incentive to ever drop below 90% mana because a) Arcane Blast burst isn't as rewarding as it used to be and b) the Level 90 talents effectively strip us of evocation making a true burn phase impossible.

    The simplest fix to offer is getting rid of the level 90 talents and go back to the Conserve/Burn playstyle. Arcane would get significant (but immobile) burst, and the rotation would actually vary somewhat during cooldowns of Arcane Power.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    Not bad but :
    • another instant
    • 35 yr limited

    Why don't simply let FFB refresh the debuff too. And a 6s CD will overlap with FFB if used with Frost Bomb. But it's ok if it's to replace FFB.
    It's for PvP and PvE mobility help. This allows the application of a snare to melee, granting some breathing room in PvP while giving you something cast while moving in PvE.

  15. #35
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    More like Wizard in D3, I think.
    That I can do, I actually played a Wizard in DIII so I'm good with that. Of course as long as it's fun I'm good.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

  16. #36
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Here is what I would like to see the Bomb tree replaced with.

    Level 75: Raid Utility

    Amplify Magic
    40 Yard Range 3 Minute CD

    Amplifies the effectiveness of beneficial magic effects cast upon allies, increasing their healing taken by 20% for 6 seconds.

    Brilliance Aura
    40 Yard Range 3 Minute CD

    Provides allies with a surge of magical brilliance, increasing their spirit by 150%.

    Temporal Shift
    40 yard Range 3 Minute CD

    Shift the flow of time around all party and raid members within 40 yards. After 4 seconds, any damage they have taken since the Shift will be reversed over 6 seconds, up to a maximum of 50% of their total health.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  17. #37
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Swizzle-I View Post
    It's for PvP and PvE mobility help. This allows the application of a snare to melee, granting some breathing room in PvP while giving you something cast while moving in PvE.
    Oh, why not. Could be a good idea like Fire blast but for Frost.

    Why not a shorter cooldown but it depend on the damage.
    "Considered as frozen" is a little too much but it need to work with mastery. I can really see something like 60% of frostbolt damage for it.
    The answers is 42
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    Nathyiel, TempteÐ (sargeras-EU) - @Nathyiel

  18. #38
    My thoughts as a casual raider...

    Fire - crit scaling is the nemisis of this spec, I am frost at the moment while waiting on enough gear to make fire viable. Of course by the time I reach level where Fire is enjoyable, the top geared mages will be dominating all DPS and Blizzard will hammer CM again. The other factor that was fun in fire was ability to spread our DoT's to everything, why Blizzard nerfed that is beyond me as we are basically talking about trash NPC's.

    Crit Scaling - the proper fix here is to eliminate CM, this will eliminate the brutal cycle the majority of fire mages are suffering in MoP where you feel like all your efforts to reach an enjoyable play level are tossed to the side every patch.

    New Fire Passive

    Every cast of Fireball, Frostfire Bolt and Pyroblast that does not crit, increases the crit chance of your next Fireball, Frostfire Bolt, Pyroblast by (100-player crit level)/4. This buff stacks until consumed by a Critical spell cast from Fireball, Frostfire Bolt or Pyroblast.

    The idea here is to smooth out the RNG of crits while preventing fire mages from reaching crits levels that ensure a crit every other cast. This basically ensures the longest one can go without a crit is 4 casts (if Blizzard prefers a differ divisor, its a simple tweak). It also retains value to having crit as a stat on your gear.

    If a mage has 0% crit, then every cast adds 25% to buff.
    At 10%, then its 22.5%.
    At 20% then its 20%.
    At 30% then its 17.5%.
    At 40% then its 15%.
    etc...

    Fire DoT Spread

    Restore that we can spread our DoT to everything, with one exception. Using Inferno Blast on any NPC 3 levels above the mage (aka bosses) will only spread your DoT's to 2 additional targets. For PvP, well I say well done mage, opposing side should never be so grouped that a mage can spread DoT's to their whole team. Keep spread range the same.

    This restores trash NPC AoE via DoT spread, while ensuring that cleaving off bosses is very limited.

    Level 90

    Remove these talents, too tied into Arcane, too maintenancey. If Blizzard wants us to maintain a buff, then give us a power system and make each spec have have different flavor to use said power to increase our subsequent damage.

    Personally I'd like to see 90 replaced with talents that have cooldowns, each one affecting our spell rotation differently. Would like them to be Burst, Sustained or AoE cooldowns, which we could then pick and choose each encounter to fit the needs of the encounter.

    Raid Utility

    While I like mana stone idea, it probably doesn't work well with all classes.

    However, everytime I see a DK use that Anti Magic Zone, I think WTF that is what my mage should have, after all we are masters of magic.

    * New Talent *

    Dalaran Dome - basically mirror Anti Magic Zone excepting, add some mage flavor - gives us option for another raid cooldown

  19. #39
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Here is what I would like to see the Bomb tree replaced with.

    Level 75: Raid Utility

    Amplify Magic
    40 Yard Range 3 Minute CD

    Amplifies the effectiveness of beneficial magic effects cast upon allies, increasing their healing taken by 20% for 6 seconds.

    Brilliance Aura
    40 Yard Range 3 Minute CD

    Provides allies with a surge of magical brilliance, increasing their spirit by 150%.

    Temporal Shift
    40 yard Range 3 Minute CD

    Shift the flow of time around all party and raid members within 40 yards. After 4 seconds, any damage they have taken since the Shift will be reversed over 6 seconds, up to a maximum of 50% of their total health.
    Hrm... Brilliance Aura seems good for Healers and if you have Caster Shaman with you and a Shadow Priest. Amplify Magic sounds nice for a healers as well.

    Temporal Shift sounds better IMO and...can I ask something? Are you in love with healers or something cause the talents you chose are very healer friendly :-P

    My turn

    Level 90 talents: Extra Nuke or something


    Arcane Wave(Or Arcane Beam) 3 Minute CD

    You cast a very powerful spell that sends a big and very powerful Wave(Or beam) that does a massive amount of damage.(Could be used only at max stacks maybe for single target damage(Since Barrage is AOE).

    Meteor. You bring down a powerful flaming meteor hitting the ground or area you target doing a massive amount of damage. What ever is it, any dots you use is spread to those targets in the area. 3m CD.

    Tidal Wave

    You Channel a big Tidal Wave when done channeling it moves forward and whatever is hit deals a massive amount of damage and is slowed for 5%.(If Jaina can do it then so can we)


    Yeah they might seem overpowered but....I'm trying man!
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    Oh, why not. Could be a good idea like Fire blast but for Frost.

    Why not a shorter cooldown but it depend on the damage.
    "Considered as frozen" is a little too much but it need to work with mastery. I can really see something like 60% of frostbolt damage for it.
    Considered as frozen is meant for variety of gameplay in PvE since you don't have to lose too much DPS when moving without FoF or BF. It also gives you some output while being focused by melee with a dispel handy. I don't want it rooting because that would probably be too much, but allowing a refresh of a debuff and spreading it, while dealing decent enough damage seems like a fair trade. It wouldn't deal so much damage that it would be the only thing we spam in PvP, but hopefully it gives us a signature feel of the snare kings from way back when.

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