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  1. #81
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    OK, I'm not ok with you here.
    #1 - frost bomb don't need to be a dot. but all bomb need to do less damage.
    #2 - For Icy veins, I would prefer they keep the 20% haste but made baseline you're system for IL (and maybe other).
    #3 - I really don't like auto-activation, especially for Ice Flow with it you're sure it will be on CD when you really need it.
    #4 - No, don't change Mastery. Frost is making more damage on Frozen target. PvP balance isn't break because of it (it's blizzard job to make it work).
    #5 - Why not simply adding interaction with FoF ??
    #1 - Frost Bomb needs to be a DoT because of the types of encounters given to us. Nether Tempest has turned mage into a multi-DoT class whether we like it or not. So either NT and LB get changed, or Frost Bomb will never be viable. I do not like that I have to use NT, and the more gear I get, the worse Frost Bomb is.

    #2 - I'm not sure I understand your counterpoint. I am suggesting the glyph be removed entirely, therefore it would be 20% haste when you use IV. I'm suggesting the glyph's effect be baseline, not remove Icy Veins.

    #3 - Auto-activation is good because you can react to mechanics without losing DPS. It turns it into more of a passive talent and allows PoM to be your proactive choice while Ice Floes becomes your reactive choice. Blazing Speed fulfills the niche of function fights where you need to get from point A to B quicker than a blink. It means you can truly use any of the 3 talents depending on the situation rather than one talent ruling over all.

    #5 - Why is frost supposed to be more damage on a frozen target, when our targets do not get frozen? It is time to move on from this PvP consequence. I see it as there are two options: 1) Change frost mastery, or 2) Create PvP-specific tooltips. One of these must happen and the former is the most realistic to change. It does not necessarily need to change to what I suggested-- I am throwing the idea out there is all.

    Did you have a comment on #4? What you listed was in response to #5.

  2. #82
    Just to clarify, I didn't say not to discuss drastic changes...just not to expect them this expansion. Ergo my rework of Arcane and the new talents I had in mind. Also Akraen, your new Frost Mastery weakens Frost because if you deal less damage to frozen targets, your FoF procs are going to be worthless.

  3. #83
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Swizzle-I View Post
    Just to clarify, I didn't say not to discuss drastic changes...just not to expect them this expansion. Ergo my rework of Arcane and the new talents I had in mind. Also Akraen, your new Frost Mastery weakens Frost because if you deal less damage to frozen targets, your FoF procs are going to be worthless.
    The other changes strengthen frost. I am trying not to suggest changes that are buffs as much as fixes to scaling.

    My concern is that ice lance can become a little too weak in PvE, in which case as a consequence of the mastery change that might need to be tweaked. That said, ice lance through the icy veins change will be powerful as an instant cast (FoF is powerful in its own right, 4x stood fine on its own in BC)

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Swizzle-I View Post
    Yeah, I know right? I sometimes wish more people would listen to me!!!! AHRIUHYWQEJGAHSJDGH.

    Anyway, someone else in here also took my old idea for reworking Arcane's Mastery away from increasing damage based on mana and rather increasing the bonus damage of Arcane charges. I'm not upset people take my ideas, I doubt everyone remembers everything I say all the time, it actually makes me feel better that people share my ideas.

    In any case, my vision for Arcane would be a removal of mana as a core mechanic and move it to a management of charges. Basically, I see it having the Mastery of a Sub Rogue but the playstyle of a Mut Rogue. I'll elaborate further if anyone is interested past that.
    I listened!!! hence i only took your idea and modified it a bit(whereas yours was flat bonus per charge iirc.....)

    not trying to take the credit :/ just liked your idea of flat damage per charge :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    This is a place for the voicing of ideas, I demand you elaborate. :P
    what this guy said :P

  5. #85
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Frost bomb is rather restrictive with its cast time and moving some of the damage into a DoT affect would help fix the ridiculous shatter amounts on large groups. I've seen the meter hit 1.3mil dps on the HoF trash.(burst not sustained just in case it wasn't clear)

    Adding a DoT affect to it would fix the trinket restriction which is what I really want to see. All the other casters have DoTs and I don't see trinkets that proc from periodic damage going away.
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  6. #86
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    Frost bomb is rather restrictive with its cast time and moving some of the damage into a DoT affect would help fix the ridiculous shatter amounts on large groups. I've seen the meter hit 1.3mil dps on the HoF trash.(burst not sustained just in case it wasn't clear)

    Adding a DoT affect to it would fix the trinket restriction which is what I really want to see. All the other casters have DoTs and I don't see trinkets that proc from periodic damage going away.
    Frost Bomb is designed to excel with large packs of low health adds, there really isn't anything the matter with it save that it's stupid to have to rotationally use a Frost spell for Fire and Arcane.

    If all the other casters jumped off a bridge would you do it, too? The abundance of "on periodic damage" trinkets is a hallmark of poor trinket design, not a necessity for DoTs on a class that really thematically shouldn't have them.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 09:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    #1 - Frost Bomb needs to be a DoT because of the types of encounters given to us. Nether Tempest has turned mage into a multi-DoT class whether we like it or not. So either NT and LB get changed, or Frost Bomb will never be viable. I do not like that I have to use NT, and the more gear I get, the worse Frost Bomb is.
    That entire tier needs to go. Nether Tempest can be turned into an AoE tool for Arcane, while Living Bomb needs to become baseline for Fire again.
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  7. #87
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    So we scrap the entire level 90 tier and remove all the bombs? sounds like fun....

    I want more depth to the game and specs/rotations not less.
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  8. #88
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    So we scrap the entire level 90 tier and remove all the bombs? sounds like fun....

    I want more depth to the game and specs/rotations not less.
    Because they wouldn't be replaced with anything, right.

    The only Mage spec that needs DoTs is Fire.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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  9. #89
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Its fine if we actually get useful talents that we get to use. We use the bomb on every fight unlike aoe.
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  10. #90
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    Its fine if we actually get useful talents that we get to use. We use the bomb on every fight unlike aoe.
    Yes, and look how well that works. Arcane has become a multidotting class, Fire has lost one of its critical aspects, and both it and Frost are forced to use out of spec spells rotationally.

    The level 90 talents can be the fun rotational ones, but we do in fact need a tier that addresses our AoE capabilities.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
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  11. #91
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    The out of specs spells aren't really an issue for a lot of people. It would be nice to have recolours to be spec appropriate but it really doesn't matter.

    I agree the multidotting is getting out of hand but I think that could just be solved by nerfing the bombs and moving the damage elsewhere. Honestly except for tortos I refuse to multidot more than 2 targets. Its just not worth the effort.
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  12. #92
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    OK, some clarification on my part.

    On mage bomb :
    The base idea (5.0/5.1) is good and the 3 bomb are equilibrate in there utility : all 3 for single target, LB for cleave, NT for multi-dot and FB for AOE.
    But, in 5.2, they all receive a 40% buff that mess it completely, especially with the number of fight with multi-dot / cleave situation. In 6.0 perspective, we can't use 5.3 fight as standard but we need to define what mage game-play is. For me, it's a direct burst caster with some capability for cleave/dot, depending of talent and spec.
    For me Dot is for Fire. This is one of the reason I prefer playing with FB : it's not a DoT even if it act like one.
    So, I would prefer to keep the 5.0/5.1 model but with reducing damage. It don't need to do 50% of our damage on multy-dot, we aren't drood. We are mage.

    Another problem is Brain Freeze generation. This is why NT dominate so much as Frost.
    • LB scale badly with haste so it's proc rate lag behind.
    • FB scale as nearly good as NT with haste but there's a little difference
    • NT scale really good with haste and it have the best proc rate. The more haste, the more the gap is.
    Brain Freeze change is needed. The easier solution is to remove it's interaction with bomb.

    Conclusion :
    Bomb mechanics don't need to be change but there damage need a serious nerf (maybe prior to 5.1) and the interaction with Brain Freeze need to be change.

    @Akraen :
    1- your Frost bomb has no difference with NT (leaving LB behind) and you remove the AOE's damage. And you had the AOE, it will be an new LB. You can't make it explode at every tick : it would overpower NT in this case.
    2- for IV, oops bad reading for me. But I think that only 1 spell or 2 need your system, not all. We need to keep some "big" number spell.
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  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    I want more depth to the game and specs/rotations not less.
    That's what's gotten us into this mess in the first place. More depth and complexity from encounters, not specs, please.
    Last edited by Jarion; 2013-04-06 at 01:03 PM.
    Let Reason Prevail

  14. #94
    Few ideas using tools a mage already has but i feel need some love as they just arnt needed / used the way they once where.

    Mage table / food.
    Make it give +275 stats to party and raid members within 100yard of the mage. Not game changing but makes a mage a little more useful. Top guilds will use 300 food anyway but it will help most middle of the road guilds / mages.
    Or without the stat buff maybe make it have a chance to proc a random buff (haste, mastery etc) It could use the new trinket system. Cant be used at same time as other food.

    Most people seem to like the idea of a mage having some kind of mana CD for the raid group. A simple way to do it is a copy of a priests light spring. Mage places a mana spring with 10 charges on the ground. The mana spring fires 30k mana at anyone below 30% mana or something along them lines.

    I think the mage mana gem could be revamped, even turned into our level 90 talent. A few ideas for these are..

    Arcane Gem. Freezes the mages current mana for 15sec (this would give arcane the burn we all love and miss)
    Fire Gem. Increases crit by % for 15sec (Fire spec really needs a CD to manage. For me its a little boring to play in its current state)
    Frost Gem. Increases casting speed and SP of your Frost elemental for 15secs. (Super powered pet ftw)

  15. #95
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fahrenheit179 View Post
    Few ideas using tools a mage already has but i feel need some love as they just arnt needed / used the way they once where.

    Mage table / food.
    Make it give +275 stats to party and raid members within 100yard of the mage. Not game changing but makes a mage a little more useful. Top guilds will use 300 food anyway but it will help most middle of the road guilds / mages.
    Or without the stat buff maybe make it have a chance to proc a random buff (haste, mastery etc) It could use the new trinket system. Cant be used at same time as other food.

    Most people seem to like the idea of a mage having some kind of mana CD for the raid group. A simple way to do it is a copy of a priests light spring. Mage places a mana spring with 10 charges on the ground. The mana spring fires 30k mana at anyone below 30% mana or something along them lines.

    I think the mage mana gem could be revamped, even turned into our level 90 talent. A few ideas for these are..

    Arcane Gem. Freezes the mages current mana for 15sec (this would give arcane the burn we all love and miss)
    Fire Gem. Increases crit by % for 15sec (Fire spec really needs a CD to manage. For me its a little boring to play in its current state)
    Frost Gem. Increases casting speed and SP of your Frost elemental for 15secs. (Super powered pet ftw)
    The thing about raid buffs is that under the current system, unique ones are not acceptable; hence why Bloodlust/Heroism was given to Mages and then Hunters. The thing about Brilliance Aura is that it is shared by another class already, and Amplify Magic has precedent in Divine Hymn.

    And no, Mana Gem is obsolete and needs to be gotten rid of. Fire should get an interesting cooldown rather than a slightly altered Mana Gem.
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    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Fire should get an interesting cooldown rather than a slightly altered Mana Gem.
    How about Increases critical strike chance by 20% for all party and raid members. Lasts 20 sec. 3 min cooldown ? :-)
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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Milamber View Post
    How about Increases critical strike chance by 20% for all party and raid members. Lasts 20 sec. 3 min cooldown ? :-)
    we already bring timewarp for raid buff thing

    i dont know why they got rid of SP from mana gem thing on cata it was really good

  18. #98
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    Maybe make mana gem = healthstone in some way?
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  19. #99
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    I'd like a mage version of skull banner. It's such a good raid cd.
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  20. #100
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    I'd like a mage version of skull banner. It's such a good raid cd.
    That'd be fair. I don't understand why just warriors have that.

    We raid 25M and don't have any warriors.

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