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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    would def be OP with close to 100% crit with DF active
    Good point, Deep Freeze would make any kind of burn phase... well, twice as powerful. Should that make my suggestion overpowered in PVP, how about this... how much must we increase AB's crit rate to make AB spam the highest dps?

    "When activated... Arcane Blast has a X% increased chance to be a critical strike."

  2. #162
    Blademaster KalarMage's Avatar
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    Another new level 90 talent replacement idea.

    Unending Frost
    instant cast
    Applies a debuff to the target that does X damage over 8s and slowing the target by x%. This ability will Jump to additional targets, reducing the damage by 5% for each additional jump. With each new jump the duration will reset, but those enemies that have already been affected will recieve a 60second debuff making them immune to further jumps. All effects reduced by 50% against enemy players.

    This could be a fun and useful ability for both PvP and heavy AoE fights where mobs continue to replenish (i.e. Tortos with bats and turtles). But timing would have to be right to maximize the effects of the ability and getting it to carry over to multiple waves of mobs.

    Burnout
    Instant cast, no GCD
    Applies a 3 stack debuff to the target lasting 10 seconds. For each stack the target takes an additional 15% critical bonus damage from the applying Mage. For each successive crit, a stack is removed.

    i.e. Mage applies Burnout to target (3 stacks)
    Mage hits target with fireball - Normal damage
    Mage crits target with a fireball - 200% crit damage + an additional 45% (3 stacks x 15%). 1 stack is removed.
    If there are not 3 crits in the 10 second period the debuff simply falls off.


    Temporal Rift
    Instant Cast, no GCD
    Time has no meaning for the Mage. The next 3 attacks are all instant casts, costing no mana, and the GCD has been reduced to 0.25seconds. While this buff is active on the mage, the mage will do 50% damage to enemy players

    All 3 abilities would be useful in their own unique ways to all 3 specs. Obviously Unending Frost would shine in AoE fights, but the other 2 could be used in Many Scenarios.

    To compensate for the 15% damage loss from the current level 90 talents,
    Frostbolt, frostfire bolt, fireball, pyroblast, arcane blast, arcane missiles, arcane barrage will all receive a 12% base damage boost, and all 3 specs will receive the old "execute" effect that Fire used to have.

  3. #163
    High Overlord Omnink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KalarMage View Post
    Another new level 90 talent replacement idea.
    Unending Frost
    instant cast
    Applies a debuff to the target that does X damage over 8s and slowing the target by x%. This ability will Jump to additional targets, reducing the damage by 5% for each additional jump. With each new jump the duration will reset, but those enemies that have already been affected will recieve a 60second debuff making them immune to further jumps. All effects reduced by 50% against enemy players.
    *snip*
    I would change the Unending Frost talent by if the target cannot be stun/slowed the damage of the Unending Frost is double(maybe tripled if X damage is a small) that way in boss fights it would be a good talent to have for frost. The other talents are not that good for frost vs boss. I like the ideas though

  4. #164
    Blademaster KalarMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omnink View Post
    I would change the Unending Frost talent by if the target cannot be stun/slowed the damage of the Unending Frost is double(maybe tripled if X damage is a small) that way in boss fights it would be a good talent to have for frost. The other talents are not that good for frost vs boss. I like the ideas though
    Yea, it's just basic ideas... obviously they can be tweaked and worked with to work in more scenarios and be valid for both pve and pvp.
    Two-Night 14/14hm pre-nerf recruiting for WoD!

  5. #165
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    I was pondering the subject of mage mobility moving forward while in the shower of all places, when it occurred to me that given the dev's somewhat softened stance on caster movement, it would make sense to make Scorch baseline again. Or more precisely, give every spec a functionally similar spammable movement spell. It seems to fit the need quite well IMO.

    Fire already has Scorch and it does a lot for the spec's QOL in today's movement heavy raiding scene. Allowing it to proc Heating Up ensures that you essentially have a rotation to keep up during constant movement while being a lower DPS rotation than a stationary one using Fireball. To me this is perfect, and a good approach to take for caster movement in general.

    So why restrict this ability to Fire? Sure it's nice to have an identity for each spec, but it doesn't seem like this should be where such identity is established. I am of the opinion that each spec should function to varying extent, in all raiding scenarios. So what do I have in mind for the other 2 specs?

    Arcane suffers the most from movement heavy encounters. This isn't news to anyone. Even with Scorch, Arcane didn't fare extremely well with movement. But it was functional. My idea, Nether Beam.

    This particular version of Nether Beam would be channeled similar to Mind Flay, but could be used while moving. It would work similarly to it's counterpart in D3 in that it would deal damage to anything in it's path along the line. This would give Arcane a unique spammable movement ability that could also have the ability to proc Missiles. It would need to be tuned so that it would be beneficial to stop the channel when safe to unload the procs which you would still need to remain stationary.

    For Frost, the movement issue isn't as big a deal but another area of opportunity exists. The Water Elemental needs more interactivity. So why not kill 2 birds with 1 stone and give Frost a Water Elemental ability for heavy movement encounters?

    Water Jet. Not an original concept I admit, but maybe one that still needs to be looked at. This version of Water Jet would be a toggled ability that replaces Water Bolt. While Water Jet is being channeled, targets permanently immune to freeze effects can be damaged by Deep Freeze. Deep Freeze would place a moderate dot on the target that would tick every second for 5 seconds and be treated as frozen. All instant cast abilities used on a target effected by Deep Freeze deal 50% less damage While this isn't exactly the same type of movement ability you get with Arcane or Fire, it serves to add to Frost's capability while moving, gives it more interactivity with the Welly, and put Deep Freeze back into the rotation in a more meaningful way while not making it as bursty in PvP.

    I like the idea of letting casters do something on the move while ensuring they are not able to maintain as high a DPS while doing so. I think these talents would accomplish a lot to make the specs more dynamic in heavy movement scenarios. This was largely just a brainstorm and as such, is certainly open to iteration. What do you guys think?
    Last edited by Methusula; 2013-06-09 at 07:04 PM.

  6. #166
    Here're some changes I've come up with. If you don't feel like reading it, that's fine. Just figured I'd send it along. My goal is to get frost’s capping issues addressed by the time the next patch hits. The innovations are mainly for the distant future.

    Band-aid Fixes: Addresses frost’s capping problems

    Stay Cool (Passive): Any crit that pushes frostfire bolt and ice lance beyond 100% now gets converted to mastery Any haste that pulls frostbolt under the GCD now gets converted to crit.

    Glyph of Frostbolt: increases the cast time of frostbolt by 0.5 seconds, but also increases its damage by 25%.

    Quality of Life Changes: Geared towards mobility

    Fingers of Frost and Brain Freeze procs can now be used while casting frostbolt or channeling Blizzard. The issue is, sometimes we get too many procs without enough time to use them all.

    Frost mages can now channel blizzard on the move.

    Once again, any targets hit by the water elemental’s Freeze will generate fingers of frost procs regardless of whether or not the targets hit can be frozen.

    Innovations: The future of frost

    Haste now reduces the cooldown on frozen orb (similar to how it reduces the cooldown on imp swarm).

    You can now deep freeze bosses (without the stun), but it only affects your spells.

    Using three ice lance procs or two frostfire bolt procs now causes your pet to hulk out. The ice lances transform it into an ice revenant, while the frostfire bolts transform it into a steam elemental. The transformation lasts 15 seconds. When it's over, the pet will have a Dehydrated debuff that prevents it from being transformed for 15 seconds:

    Ice Revenant:
    Frostbite: Replaces waterbolt and each successful hit applies Frost Bitten, a stacking debuff that increases frost damage taken.

    Winter's Chill: A long lasting DoT that increases in damage dealt over time (Frost currently has no DoTs. This makes trinkets like Breath of the Hydra and Light of the Cosmos unusable on fights that might favor frost bomb).

    Comet: Replaces freeze with an AoE similar to Executioner's Sentence. When it hits the ground, all targets within an 8 yard radius are slowed for 3 seconds.

    Steam Elemental:
    Steam Blast: Replaces water bolt and does extra damage.

    Vaporize: Replaces freeze, acts as a mass dispel (similar to sear magic), a successful dispel generates a frostfire bolt proc.

    Evaporate: Causes the water elemental to self-destruct dealing AoE damage, doing a small AoE heal to those around it, and reverting the elemental back to its original form.


    PS - Because the original post got locked:
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike
    uhhhh its a patch not new expansion just wait till next expansion >_>

    im surprised you were actually expecting all of those in a patch lol
    Please read the top part of this post very carefully.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Boxedwaffle View Post
    Fingers of Frost and Brain Freeze procs can now be used while casting frostbolt or channeling Blizzard. The issue is, sometimes we get too many procs without enough time to use them all.
    Just a thought. One of the downsides of NT compared to LB was that you could lose BF procs if they proc back to back, especially if you're in the middle of a FrB cast. Wouldn't this just eliminate this disadvantage of NT?

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by nickseng View Post
    Just a thought. One of the downsides of NT compared to LB was that you could lose BF procs if they proc back to back, especially if you're in the middle of a FrB cast. Wouldn't this just eliminate this disadvantage of NT?
    I don't use NT unless it's a heavy cleave fight; I normally run LB.

  9. #169
    Just my two opinions from the last thread.

    A Band-aid-fix like u suggested will never come between xpac. Its to huge. With patches they adjust numbers and smaller abilities. I dont think there is even a ingamemechanic for that behaviour. And as citizien asked: Converting Haste to Crit to mastery requires a huge modell to balance that.
    FFB and IL casting while FB i think is ridiculous.
    U need 100% Haste to get a tickspeed of 0.5 secs. That means even if u start cast FB (which is also only 1 sec cast) and u get a proc right at this time then u have 3 Ticks in one FB-cast. Most of the time it will be 2 Ticks because its a not that synchron.
    One tick has a chance of 9%. Getting 2 procs in a row is a chance of 0.81%. Three procs in a row 0,006561. I think sometimes people overvalue Chainprocs. They dont happen that much. Its more often possible to loose procs due to doing other stuff.
    And again there would be the question: Is this even possible? Point one: FFB and IL must be off GCD (which i think will never happen). Point 2: I dont think there is a mechanic which allows to cast instants while channeling/casting a spell.
    And be aware of PVP: Imagine a Mage casting FB while throwing FFB/IL at you.

    If u want to here suggestions:
    Deep Freeze doing dmg or a real difference between PVP and PVE (like at Frostbomb).
    Scalingprobs: Reverse the meta. Just scrap it and throw it into a deep hole where it never comes back.
    Other things could be letting FB-Crits increased by Mastery making Crit above 28% a little bit more attractive.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Just my two opinions from the last thread.

    A Band-aid-fix like u suggested will never come between xpac. Its to huge. With patches they adjust numbers and smaller abilities.

    If u want to here suggestions:
    Deep Freeze doing dmg or a real difference between PVP and PVE (like at Frostbomb).
    Scalingprobs: Reverse the meta. Just scrap it and throw it into a deep hole where it never comes back.
    Other things could be letting FB-Crits increased by Mastery making Crit above 28% a little bit more attractive.
    Take a look at the Druid abilities. If those stay relatively the same, they'll be pretty massive changes to come in "between xpac." As for the Deep Freeze, that's something I would like to see, since Deep is currently obsolete in most PvE encounters. The meta, I doubt they would ever do that. I think it's a pretty awful design for a meta, but I doubt they'll change it now. Still unsure what you mean by "letting FB-Crits increased by Mastery making Crit above 28% a little bit more attractive." Can you clarify what you meant by that?

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Boxedwaffle View Post
    Still unsure what you mean by "letting FB-Crits increased by Mastery making Crit above 28% a little bit more attractive." Can you clarify what you meant by that?
    Now: FB Crits for 2x DMG.
    With that change: FB Crits for (2xDmg * Mastery)
    Simple: Shatter for all FBCrits.

  12. #172
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Now: FB Crits for 2x DMG.
    With that change: FB Crits for (2xDmg * Mastery)
    Simple: Shatter for all FBCrits.
    Wrong, Shatter only increase crit chance on frozen target, like mastery increase damage.
    So you want to change mastery into a crit damage bonus.
    But actually, Mastery increase all the damage of waterbolt and the damage of IL/FFB that don't crit.
    The answers is 42
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  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    But actually, Mastery increase all the damage of waterbolt and the damage of IL/FFB that don't crit.
    Double Fail
    Mastery increases DMG versus Frozen targets.
    So yes shatter in my example was the wrong word. It should mean: Every Crit of FB counts as the target is frozen. Without Shatter because Shatter would increase the critchance but with mastery.

  14. #174
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Double Fail
    Mastery increases DMG versus Frozen targets.
    So yes shatter in my example was the wrong word. It should mean: Every Crit of FB counts as the target is frozen. Without Shatter because Shatter would increase the critchance but with mastery.
    For precision, I also could have add the evidence that it was in addition to the increase to damage to frozen target. I'm thinking it was obvious.

    For me, Shatter and Mastery are some of the things that work the best in this spec. They don't need any change, except maybe a little buff to mastery bonus.

    Why was there a burst problem with them in PvP?
    Before MoP :
    1-- Deep Freeze was 10% to 20% of the damage in PvE. There's no difference between PvE and PvP damage now.
    2-- Early Frost was here for quick snaring with Frostbolt who hit harder than actually.
    3-- Frost was declared a "pvp" spec by Blizzard after 4.1

    Now :
    1-- Deep Freeze's damage have been backed into all other spell
    2-- all bomb need a specific "against player" debuff after the 40% buff
    3-- frostbolt's debuff was added to nerf PvP damage indirectly (frostbolt is never cast).

    My conclusion :
    If we exclude the bomb problem, most of the problem was that the burst from Deep Freeze was backed into FFB/IL and was replaced implicitly by a debuff that are never applied.
    Until Frostbolt is cast in PvP and/or the add a "DF-like" spell, there always be some pvp problem.
    The answers is 42
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  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    For precision, I also could have add the evidence that it was in addition to the increase to damage to frozen target. I'm thinking it was obvious.
    You said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    and the damage of IL/FFB that don't crit.
    . That was what i refer to.

    The conclusion with DF against unfreezable Mobs was on the our side of the table all the time. I dont know why Blizz hate this idea, but along the fact that its not here now is an example for me that blizz simple dont want it and will try every other thing to avoid it. Its the same with the idea to separate numbers from PVE and PVP.

    My idea was also not against or current mastery/shatter.
    Its an addition no rework. All it would do make crit a little bit better overall, which would help for the scaling.
    Thats all: Its in my eyes another art for this "Crit over 100% is +% DMG"-Thing other people recommendet because as said by me above such things are harder to implement. Letting FB-Crits work with Mastery is in my eyes an easy and simple way to improve the scaling of frost a little bit.
    And it shouldn't interfere with PVP because as u said nearly nobody casts FB in PVP, due to the debuff.

  16. #176
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    You said: . That was what i refer to.

    The conclusion with DF against unfreezable Mobs was on the our side of the table all the time. I dont know why Blizz hate this idea, but along the fact that its not here now is an example for me that blizz simple dont want it and will try every other thing to avoid it. Its the same with the idea to separate numbers from PVE and PVP.

    My idea was also not against or current mastery/shatter.
    Its an addition no rework. All it would do make crit a little bit better overall, which would help for the scaling.
    Thats all: Its in my eyes another art for this "Crit over 100% is +% DMG"-Thing other people recommendet because as said by me above such things are harder to implement. Letting FB-Crits work with Mastery is in my eyes an easy and simple way to improve the scaling of frost a little bit.
    And it shouldn't interfere with PVP because as u said nearly nobody casts FB in PVP, due to the debuff.
    Blizzard isn't against the Deep Freeze design, they give it as a L90 talents to Warrior.
    They also said they want frost to be crit capped. it's one of the few things they're very persistent at.

    On your idea, I can see you're point, especially since FB is very rarely (never ?) cast in PvP but if it's damage is too high (crit or not), there will be no purpose to cast FFB/IL ...
    The answers is 42
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  17. #177
    Level 90 talents:
    Rune of Power
    Instant cast, 2 charge (30second to generate new charge). Places a Rune of Power on the ground, which lasts for 1 min. While standing in your own Rune of Power, your mana regeneration is increased by 75% and your spell damage is increased by 15%. Only 2 Runes of Power can be placed at one time. Replaces Evocation.

    Invocation
    Passive. Shrouds mage with arcane, frost or fire (debending on spec), increases your spell damage by 15% and renegates 2% of your total mana every 3 second.

    Incanter's Ward does not change.

    Level 75 talents (Raw ideas, sry :S)
    Bombs and tempest gone, instead new spells.

    Clone
    Costs 10% of your total mana, instant cast, 3 min cooldown. You gather mana and create a clone of the chosen player. Clone lives 30 second. If you made a clone from:
    Player that was dps: Clone duplicates next 5 spell that player casts and targets your current target.
    Player that was healer: Clone gets that players cooldowns (For example, druids tranquility and iron bark) and the mage who used clone gets extra buttons of those spells. These spells are not in your gcd and can be used while casting, while silenced or stunned.
    Player that was tank: Clone gets that player defensive cooldowns and taunts your current target, using all of the cooldowns. Clone also duplicates tanks health and other stats.

    Empowered magic
    Costs 20% of your total mana, instant cast, 3min cooldown. You gather instantly surrounding magic and power up, instantly refreshing you to full mana, removes snares, stuns and silences and resets your cooldowns which are under 3min (So empowered magics cd won't reset). You will receive a spell that does 20% of the used mana dmg + spell power. This spell is moment of burst and lasts 10second untill disappears.

    Familiar
    Costs 5% of your total mana, 1 sec cast. You cast an familiar on target enemy. Enemy which is affected by familiar will take increasing spell damage from the mage who casted the familiar. Familiar fades away after 15second.

  18. #178
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    I like the clone idea. With a little balancing it could be really versatile. It could be used as a dps cd or as utility. It is probably too attractive as I would see no reason to ever use the other 2. I really don't understand what is going on with empowered magic and familiar looks very boring. Still I really do like the clone idea. 2 more talents like that, and we would be in business!

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyburger View Post
    Level 90 talents:
    Rune of Power
    Instant cast, 2 charge (30second to generate new charge). Places a Rune of Power on the ground, which lasts for 1 min. While standing in your own Rune of Power, your mana regeneration is increased by 75% and your spell damage is increased by 15%. Only 2 Runes of Power can be placed at one time. Replaces Evocation.

    Invocation
    Passive. Shrouds mage with arcane, frost or fire (debending on spec), increases your spell damage by 15% and renegates 2% of your total mana every 3 second.
    And this is the point why you cant discuss some things with some guys. Did you really think before you post about your suggestions?
    I mean we have:
    Talent A: 15% DMGIncrease all the time without doing anything.
    Talent B: 15% DMGIncrease when u stand at a specific point and u have to waste a GCD every minute.
    Really? Thats your suggestion?
    Rethink pls.

  20. #180
    Field Marshal Sombrelune's Avatar
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    Frost Mastery proposal :

    Mastery: Frostburn
    Requires Mage (Frost)
    Requires level 80
    All your critical spells deal X% increased damage ( pet damages included) .

    X may be 16% or less if needed.

    With this simple mastery change, i think frost mages issues may be solved in both PVP and PVE.
    This mastery applies on 100% of mage spells, so it is easy to balance.
    It synergy with other secondary stats is great
    If the target is frozen, damages are not automatically increased, but frozen target increases the chance to do high damages.

    In pve our gameplay will stay the same, but mastery will become a better stat, and "crit" above crit cap also .
    This mastery is as strong against frozen as against non-frozen targets. Obviously against frozen targets chance are higher to critical damages. We are Frost Mage !

    In pvp the crit cap is not reachable without sacrifying others stats ( like mastery).
    In a crit cap build, we will chose safety but less extra burst
    In a mastery build we will chose RNG. Less security, but when we're lucky, hight burst ( like nowadays)
    The pvp gameplay will stay close what we already know, but with more possible damages again non frozen targets and less possible damages again frozen ones.

    Don't forget that with this mastery, balance is easier.

    So maybe instead of 2% per mastery point, we will need 1,5% or 1% per mastery point . The goal is to be a fun and viable spec, not to be overpowered.

    With that mastery frozen targets will remain our prey, but not a piece of cake.

    Thanks for reading, and sorry for my bad English , I'm an french frost mage.
    Last edited by Sombrelune; 2013-06-28 at 12:54 PM.

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