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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    My earlier post:



    You quoted that line and replied:



    Sure sounds to be like even the doubled drop rate of 5.0 LFR plus bonus roll on every single boss isn't good enough for you.
    Right, ok?!? So you are, again, trying to twist what people say to fit your argument. Where did I say that "even if they doubled the loot drop rate of ToT LFR to what the old 5.0 LFRs are dropping currently and allowed coin use on every single boss, he would consider the drop rate too low still?" So because in my experience, which others in this thread have backed up, 5.0 does not drop "lots of loot" I have somehow stated that if 5.2 raids were doubled with the use of additional rolls on each boss it would still be too low? I even went as far to say that issue is far more complicated than just the LFR drop rates in the very same post.
    Last edited by Pann; 2013-04-04 at 11:13 PM.

  2. #202
    Tired of being able to stand there, face roll your keyboard, and get a small chance at 500+ ilvl equipment? Well then get a real guild that can clear normals, and preferably heroics. Put some effort into raiding and you will get gear much faster AND it will be much higher ilvl.

    LFR is only there for people that can't raid normally due to skill level and/or time. There's plenty of guilds out there that raid at different times and different amounts, I really don't see time as an excuse as long as you are willing to server transfer.

    It usually comes down to skill level or the person just being too lazy to find a decent guild. If it's skill level, then research and practice. Stop expecting free stuff and play better. If it's just sheer laziness then nothing can be done and I have no pity for these people that want free stuff handed to them.
    Last edited by tyrindor; 2013-04-04 at 11:14 PM.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Right, ok?!? So you are, again, trying to twist what people say to fit your argument. Where did I say that "even if they doubled the loot drop rate of ToT LFR to what the old 5.0 LFRs are dropping currently and allowed coin use on every single boss, he would consider the drop rate too low still?" So because in my experience, which others in this thread have backed up, 5.0 does not drop "lots of loot" I have somehow stated that if 5.2 raids were doubled with the use of additional rolls on each boss it would still be too low? I even went as far to say that issue far more complicated than just the LFR drop rates in the very same post.
    All you have to say is "you're wrong, I don't think the 5.0 LFR drop rate is too low. I think it's just right(or too high)."

    But instead your response is "it's complicated".

    This whole thread is about a perceived poor drop rate in LFR. If you aren't even willing to offer up what the drop rate should be increased to, what's the point?
    Last edited by SamR; 2013-04-04 at 11:24 PM.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrindor View Post
    Tired of being able to stand there, face roll your keyboard, and get a small chance at 500+ ilvl equipment? Well then get a real guild that can clear normals, and preferably heroics. Put some effort into raiding and you will get gear much faster AND it will be much higher ilvl.

    LFR is only there for people that can't raid normally due to skill level and/or time. There's plenty of guilds out there that raid at different times and different amounts, I really don't see time as an excuse as long as you are willing to server transfer.

    It usually comes down to skill level or the person just being too lazy to find a decent guild. If it's skill level, then research and practice. Stop expecting free stuff and play better. If it's just sheer laziness then nothing can be done and I have no pity for these people that want free stuff handed to them.
    I think you're missing the big one; the ability (or desire) to raid on-schedule. Having to play a certain game at a certain time on a certain day can be a turnoff for some people, y'know. In some cases, it's outright impossible. I had to stop raiding with my guild because something more important came up which occupied me from 6-9pm every Wednesday. Not much I can do about that.

    Also, the ilvl difference between normal and LFR gear accounts for the difficulty difference. The chance of getting gear shouldn't be something that varies between the two, or at least, isn't something that needs to vary between the two.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    All you have to say is "you're wrong, I don't think the 5.0 LFR drop rate is too low. I think it's just right(or too high)."

    But instead your response is "it's complicated".

    This whole thread is about a perceived poor drop rate in LFR. If you aren't even willing to offer up what the drop rate should be increased to, what's the point?
    I have repeatedly said that the rate at which people acquire gear is too slow. Perhaps if you had read my post where I said that issue was more complicated than just LFR drop rates instead of quoting one part of it out of context to fit your argument you would not be so confused.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I have repeatedly said that the rate at which people acquire gear is too slow. Perhaps if you had read my post where I said that issue was more complicated than just LFR drop rates instead of quoting one part of it out of context to fit your argument you would not be so confused.
    So what rate would be fast enough for you?

    "Too slow" is a relative term. It's a term used to compare the current gear acquisition rate to a different rate that you have in mind. Just tell us what that rate is.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    So what rate would be fast enough for you?
    I have already said what I think is an acceptable rate to gain gear. Honestly I don't think there is much point continuing down this line of discussion as you have proved that you will twist anything that is written in an attempt to fit your argument.

  8. #208
    Stood in the Fire Attackrabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    I think you're missing the big one; the ability (or desire) to raid on-schedule. Having to play a certain game at a certain time on a certain day can be a turnoff for some people, y'know. In some cases, it's outright impossible. I had to stop raiding with my guild because something more important came up which occupied me from 6-9pm every Wednesday. Not much I can do about that.
    I'm sure there are some guilds out there who don't only raid between 6 and 9 pm on a Wednesday.....

  9. #209
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Attackrabbit View Post
    I'm sure there are some guilds out there who don't only raid between 6 and 9 pm on a Wednesday.....
    That doesn't mean there are any that are convenient for him/her that accept the role he desires (that he can play), class, spec, or progress/skill level. I had to quit raiding when my partner and I moved to out to the burbs because I was getting up at 5:30 in the morning and could no longer stay up till midnight to raid 3 nights a week.



  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Attackrabbit View Post
    I'm sure there are some guilds out there who don't only raid between 6 and 9 pm on a Wednesday.....
    Jumping ship from a guild containing plenty of good friends of mine is problematic in itself. That's just the beginning, too; even ignoring that, it can be difficult to find a guild with a fitting raiding schedule that actually has open positions, is decent and isn't full of wankers.

  11. #211
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrindor View Post
    Tired of being able to stand there, face roll your keyboard, and get a small chance at 500+ ilvl equipment? Well then get a real guild that can clear normals, and preferably heroics. Put some effort into raiding and you will get gear much faster AND it will be much higher ilvl.

    LFR is only there for people that can't raid normally due to skill level and/or time. There's plenty of guilds out there that raid at different times and different amounts, I really don't see time as an excuse as long as you are willing to server transfer.

    It usually comes down to skill level or the person just being too lazy to find a decent guild. If it's skill level, then research and practice. Stop expecting free stuff and play better. If it's just sheer laziness then nothing can be done and I have no pity for these people that want free stuff handed to them.
    I hate this attitude. I'm very much capable of doing normal or better raiding, but I just don't want to deal with the social aspects of it, and I really hate this whole "LFR is you just standing there and doing nothing" attitude. That is painfully not true, and a gross exaggeration, and only serves to make one seem a bit elitist.

    I also don't want "free loot". I don't think ANYONE really wants "free loot" here. Hell, I think things are fine the way they are!

    But I will say, there has to be a reason why LFR is immensely more popular than normal raiding, and why raiding has never really been all that popular in the history of the game. You can't entirely chalk it up to skill or "laziness" or whatever.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    Jumping ship from a guild containing plenty of good friends of mine is problematic in itself. That's just the beginning, too; even ignoring that, it can be difficult to find a guild with a fitting raiding schedule that actually has open positions, is decent and isn't full of wankers.
    Isn't that one of the reasons why normal raiding has more/guaranteed drops though?

    10+/25+ people opening a few hours on their schedules, get prepared, get flasks/food, reforges, gems, enchants and w/e else they need to raid get drops (if they can kill the boss), which they can use on harder challenges, while someone who doesn't (or can't) bother with all that gets to see content and has a chance to get some gear, which is useful on getting the necessary ilvl for the next LFR. From my point of view, it has to have some drawbacks so it doesn't obliterate the casual/normal mode raiding guilds. I don't think ilvl is good enough for that, I mean; I do LFR on my alts, but I don't cap VP even if VP gear (which is even more "free loot" than LFR actually, I don't understand why people act like it doesn't exist) is same as normal mode loot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    But I will say, there has to be a reason why LFR is immensely more popular than normal raiding, and why raiding has never really been all that popular in the history of the game. You can't entirely chalk it up to skill or "laziness" or whatever.
    I would say accessibility + skill + laziness + willpower among other things.

    For LFR, all you have to do is queue. For raiding, even with a casual guild, you still have to spend time (at a pre-determined time even), you still have to find a guild with members on your wavelength, you still have to be playing somewhat well and you still have to be having fun. Not many people are interested in all that and as someone who's done heroic raiding and casual raiding, I can perfectly understand that. Even one person in your guild might put you off raiding and you might not want to deal with finding another guild, which isn't an easy thing; not in hardcore brackets, nor in casual ones.

    I have some friends who have absolutely no interest in raiding (even LFR). WoW has countless other things they find fun...
    Last edited by laplacedemon; 2013-04-05 at 07:20 AM.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordredofmia View Post
    Not much but air must've come out if your mind can't comprehend that people are upset when a perfectly fine and convenient and superior method of catching up to current content was replaced with a terrible one.

    Cause, from where I sit it's 1+1=2. You take away something good, replace it with something shitty, and people will complain.
    We're not talking about catching up or how much you love end-of-expansion free-epic-dungeons. We're talking about current-content LFR droprates, which are more than fine inside the scope of a six-month tier.

    OP is just mad that he didn't swap out every piece of 489 Valor gear in the first three weeks of LFR raiding.

  14. #214
    One thing I hate (and its saddening to see a Moderator doing) is people who keep jumping from one extreme to another, strawmanning the argument for god knows what reason.

    Player A: The drop rates are too low.

    Hardcore raiders: WAHH YOU BABY, YOU WANT GUARANTEED EPICS??? BACK IN MY DAY etc etc etc.

    When did anyone say, "yo I want epics every Boss."

    When people like you immediately strawman the OP (or anyone else who disagrees with you)'s point, you just come off looking like snobs who think they're somehow entitled to make comments while everyone else isn't. Kinda like how in the PVPtrollforums apparently anyone under 2200 is a scrub and has no worthy thing to say. Why do you guys perpetuate such behaviour and wonder why the community has gone to shit?

    Looked through 11 pages of this thread and I don't see any "entitled casual" asking for full 502 gear in one run. His point is that it's too low. Not that he wants epics immediately. You can disagree, you can agree, but don't misrepresent his statement.

    And again - these guys are AT WORST, asking for gear twenty to forty levels below yours. That's what, 50K DPS? 100K DPS lower? But... that's somehow intolerable, apparently.

  15. #215
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    In normal raids, it's more controlled. A set amount of items will drop, and the raid decides precisely who gets which one. The only chance involved regards getting certain items from the item pool to drop, but because you've got guaranteed drops (and several of them, at that) for every kill, you're much more likely to come across at least one instance of any given item, and the raid can distribute that where needed.
    All well in good and correct as far as it goes. But after a while, most of the drops are duplicates of things that are no longer needed.

    The community--such as it is--had their chance to do the roll thing with DS and it was pretty much a catastrophe. The new system is much better and there's a decent argument to be made that due to LFR being easier with generally fewer wipes all around, things balance out. I'm not sure I even want LFR to gear you up faster than normal raiding does anyway but that's an arguable proposition about which reasonable people can have different points of view. Unfortunately, most of the complaining about LFR drop rates seems to come down to something like "I want my LFR gear now and it's ridiculous that it takes weeks to get it". That's a point of view for which I have no sympathy whatsoever. It's supposed to take time and RNG is inherent in all raiding loot systems to one degree or another.

    I don't really see what the hurry is to get gear out of LFR in any case. If you were to use it for normal raiding, you should be just doing normal raiding instead. If you're not planning on doing normal raiding there's no reason to rush. In any case, it's all pretty subjective and simply complaining about it isn't really very useful.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-04-05 at 08:06 AM.
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  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    You know why? Because we were going to be there next week, upgrades or no upgrades, because we were there for the raid and the absolute joy of raiding. Truly something I wish more players would get a chance to experience.
    Well that is true... FOR A GUILD. Now I am really far removed from agreeing with the OP. But you cannot deny that LFR isn't a place where you "raid" in the same "fun" way that you did with your guild. It is a game of "everyone for himself" and as such people want loot. They (most) are not there to have fun raiding. They are there to upgrade themselves in the most efficient manner in the game = LFR.

    I mean I agree that you "should" play this game for other ideals, but this is a BIG reason for people to do LFR. That and it is a good reason to do LFR. I would guess that if people who normally only play LFR for loot, would quit, the queue times would be horrendous = you cannot raid LFR anymore.

  17. #217
    The amount of crying over loot since LFR came out is absolutely hilarious.

    Real raiders know you spend weeks, maybe even months, before you get the drop you want. And that isn't fighting loot pinata bosses. You spend time learning fights, and then maybe you get lucky with a drop.

    Real raiders also know the game isn't about loot. It's about having fun. The gear is just a means to an end.

    I was fine w/ LFD but I honestly think LFR was a huge mistake.

  18. #218
    Well this thread isn't about "real raiding" it is about LFR so I don't get why you find it funny. I am pretty sure lfr was put in place for people to experience the content that normally wouldn't have the chance, and that is why I am a little surprised to see any real gripe when it comes to drops. If things drop they drop if not, at least you still got to see some content you otherwise might not have got to.



  19. #219
    High Overlord Synaeris's Avatar
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    Try playing a holy paladin for a change. You won't get any loot. Nowhere. Ever.

    Well, in DF/LFR, that is.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldhearth View Post
    The amount of crying over loot since LFR came out is absolutely hilarious.

    Real raiders know you spend weeks, maybe even months, before you get the drop you want. And that isn't fighting loot pinata bosses. You spend time learning fights, and then maybe you get lucky with a drop.

    Real raiders also know the game isn't about loot. It's about having fun. The gear is just a means to an end.

    I was fine w/ LFD but I honestly think LFR was a huge mistake.
    I disagree.

    In "real raids" as you put it gear does not come slowly. I have been in many runs in the past where certain items always seem to drop often because of the disparity of individual item drop rates.

    My DK upon joining a 10 man raid got showered with epics to save them from shardage. The point is raids get loot every time.

    Real raiders also know the game is all about gear, they rarely take anyone undergeared as they know that between dps timers and healing throughput it makes the difference between a kill and a wipe.

    Personally my schedule doesn't allow me to raid as I do martial arts clases most evenings so LFR and PvP are my way of enjoying the game because I can do it around them without having to clear an entire evening.

    The drop rates suck and while personal loot is a good idea it was so much faster to gear up in DS where loot always dropped.

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