1. #1

    [Prot] Tier 1 Talents and movement discussion for T15

    Had a shorter discussion back in T14 about the Tier 1 talents.

    For reference, that thread can be found here.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...nd-discussions

    I will not cover the talents again in terms of how the work and their strengths and weaknesses, instead I plan on taking a look feautring the T15 boss fights, using normal modes as a baseline to fit a broader audience. Anything that works in normal mode works in LFR. Most fights are the same in heroic mode, and for those fights that differ in heroic mode, I will assume heroic mode raiders are clever enough to realise this and reflect their choice of talent accordingly.

    My plan is to cover all talent choices for each fight, give a brief comment and then a score for each talent on each fight.
    The scoring will be as follows.

    0 - Absolutely no reason to use this talent over another.
    1 - You should really use another talent, but if you are really stubborn about liking this specific talent, "it feels better", it can work, but will be sub-par.
    2 - Got some niche uses where it can be superior, but most likely will be weaker than other options
    3 - A strong choice for some niches, but generally not the stronest. Pretty much same as 2, only stronger.
    4 - A very solid choice. Very likely to be the best talent choice for a given fight. Depending on strats maybe this one / another one clearly pulls ahead.
    5 - Without a doubt the strongest talent choice.


    So lets get down to fight to fight basics.


    Jin'Rokh

    Movement: Jin'Rokh features very low movement. Arguably the only time you need to move is after being tossed. For this SoL will be the far superior choice. LAotL comes in a strong second for that purpose. The other movement you can consider is that you need to move the boss to a pool so melees can stand in a pool while dpsing. SoL is arguably strongest here aswell, with LaotL again coming in a (distant) second place. In the end, movement in this fight is not very important.

    Talent Score
    SoL - 4/5 Movement does not play big enough role to justify a 5/5
    LAotL - 2/5
    PoJ - 0/5


    Horridon

    Movement: Movement is not a huge part of this fight aswell. The little movement you have involves moving the boss, moving from (or to for vengeance whores) the double swipe, running between gates, picking up the adds, moving from the shit on the ground and the orbs. SoL is obviously the strongest for moving between the gates, but that is not really important in this fight, it can also work as an "oh shit"-sprint in case you need to move from something quick. LAotL provides a strong overall movement speed increase which is obviously weaker than SoL, but provides coverage for all events on the event, which on a fight like this, where you got a lot of minor movements, but none is really a matter of life or death is nice to have.

    Talent Score
    SoL - 2/5
    LAotL - 4/5
    PoJ - 2/5


    Council

    Movement: Again a very stationairy fight. Movement is limited to moving from the quicksand and the charge. or the sand, paladins have the unfair advantage of having Hand of Freedom. Nerf! The other part that may involve moving is kiting bosses from the healing add, if dps is low, bad stuns, bad slows. If you are using a ping-pong tactic and you are on the frost king malak, running around kiting / taunting off eachother to avoid getting stunned, SoL is a very solid choice. For other purposes, LAotL wins hands down just for the overall effect on the tiny movements.

    Talent score
    SoL - 3/5
    LAotL - 4/5
    PoJ - 1/5


    Tortos

    Movement: What movement? Jokes aside, SoL is very strong for avoiding the rockfall rain. LAotL is strong if you are kiting the bats.

    Talent score
    SoL - 3/5
    LAotL - 3/5
    PoJ - 1/5


    Megaera

    Movement: Moving between heads for rampages. In the end, you can do this with 0 downtime and no movespeed talent so talents irrelevant there. Secondary movement is turning the head away for breaths, if you are helping dpsing the 'kill' head while you are on the head that is not focused. Which you really should be doing. Movement is extremely lower either way.

    Talent Score
    LAotL - 3/5
    SoL - 1/5
    PoJ - 1/5


    Ji-Kun

    Movement: Other than moving to/from pools, down draft. Don't think this needs much more commenting.

    Talents Score
    SoL - 5/5
    LAotL - 1/5
    PoJ - 0/5


    Durumu

    Movement: Moving from the gaze. Colorblind phase is kinda irrelevant as tank. Other than that, just the maze. I heard some people prefer SoL for the start of the maze to faster get into position. Personally, I like LAotL more as it also helps more when inside the maze, for example if someone placed a bad purple pool allows you to cross it faster. I guess both points have their weight and in the end, movement speed talent on this fight is kinda mute.

    Talent score
    SoL - 3/5
    LAotL - 3/5
    PoJ - 1/5


    Primordius

    Movement: Kiting the boss, running around killing adds and getting mutated. SoL is fine for picking up the mutations, but LAotL does a much finer job at it, aswell as for the boss kiting. One could argue that movement speed talents during the actual kiting of the boss is irrelevant as you are not exactly moving at full speed. Which is the reason that SoL gets 2 points in the scoring. If your tactic allows your tank to get mutated within the duration of the SoL and get back on the boss, fine, but if that is the case, something is clearly wrong in your tactic, as that means your wasting DPS on the boss by having mutated dps killing adds or your tank is hogging dpsers buffs.

    Talent score
    SoL - 2/5
    LAotL - 5/5
    PoJ - 1/5


    Dark Animus

    Movement: Gathering up adds 1 by 1 in the first phase, running around positioning adds correctly making sure the anima gets into the right golems. Tank switches, if you use them aswell as anima rings. Getting ported away with anima swap duo to bad positioning. LAotL just works very well on the small movement adjustments and anima ring on this fight.

    Talent score
    SoL - 1/5
    LAotL - 5/5
    PoJ - 2/5


    Iron Qon

    Movement: Stacking up in P1, moving from the tornadostorm in P2, Getting a good positioning with the dead zone in P3, P4 pretty much standing still. Moving from the spear in P1, P2, P3. SoL works wonders on the storm, however if you have another tactic that makes you require no movement, for example warlock portal / priest uses warlock portal + grip, then you obviously do not need it. LAotL is more well rounded for the other abilities in the fight. So, if you are having issues with the storm in P2, go for SoL, otherwise LAotL. PoJ is just way to weak for the storm aswell as weaker on the other abilities to even be considered.

    Talent score
    SoL - 4/5
    LAotL - 4/5
    PoJ - 0/5


    Twins - Btw, off-topic, why does every large raid have to include twins + council? Why never triplets or Board of Directors?

    Movement: First phase really shouts lack of movement. The later phases is pretty much only moving the fire bi... fire lady... to the icebergs and not standing in the fire.

    Talent Score
    SoL - 3/5
    LAotL - 3/5
    PoJ - 1/5


    Lei-Shen

    Movement: First phase, I guess decapitate, never bothered to move from that, but others do, aswell as moving between pylons. Moving to your designated pillar for the transition phase, maybe you are in the complete other side of the room when transition starts. Moving into the balls. Moving back to boss after being knocked away in P2, again same as above for the second transition. Then ofc the winds in the last phase. Overall, LAotL performs the best on most abilities, but it has the drawback that you can't use it in the second phase unless you have adds spawned. Making it lose some ground there. If it was not for that fact LAotL would take the win here by a mile. Now it is more even. I still prefer SoL here though, most because of the oh shit factor. For some reason you can't soak the Decpitate and need to run, sprint! You lost track of the energy on a pillar and must move boss fast to keep it from overcharging, sprint! Great for getting into position in for transition phase, and if you have bad positioning it helps you reaching a bouncing ball. Also great for gap closing after being pushed back in P2 and the winds in P3.
    LAotL provides a better overall effect in this fight, but I feel like SoL can be a bigger life saver if you lose focus for a second or so, so I would almost argue that it is the stronger choice here. PoJ is okay in the transition phase, but really shit in the rest of the fight

    Talent score
    SoL - 4/5
    LAotL - 4/5
    PoJ - 2/5



    Overall:

    Most fights seems to boil down between SoL and LAotL. Some fights have a few niche uses where one ability pull ahead over the other, so consider the tactic you are using and one talent can obviously pull ahead.
    Movement is not really a big issue this tier to be honest. And most talent choices is pretty straight forward. Fights like Ji-Kun screams SoL, or the fights that do not scream after SoL, use LAotL is a good general strategy. To summarize suggested talents for fights. PoJ really falls insanely short this tier, it is just so inferior to the other talents. Other than the "feel" of it, it provides no benefit over the other talents. SoL have the drawback of requiring an additional keybinding which neither of the other talents require.

    Bolded The important ones

    Jin'Rokh - SoL
    Horridon - LAotL
    Council - LAotL
    Tortos - LAotL / SoL
    Megaera - LAotL
    Ji-Kun - SoL
    Durumu - LAotL / SoL
    Primordius - LAotL
    Dark Animus - LAotL
    Iron Qon - SoL/LAotL - Depending on strategy / issues as mentioned above, SoL for tornado phase, LAotL for rest.
    Twins - LAotL/SoL
    Lei-shen - LAotL / SoL - Again, depnding on issues as mentioned above. SoL nice for 'oh shits', while LAotL is more all-round for that fight.


    Now this thread was put together quite quickly. Any discussion is welcomed and encouraged aswell as questions.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-04-04 at 03:57 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #2
    Personally i feel that you're undervaluing PoJ. While i am lazy and use it on most fights i feel that a constant (and most of the time noticeable ~+25-+30% speed buff) is better than the jittery one.

    On Jin i've noticed that instead of actually moving the boss to the pull the tank that just got thrown taunts the boss (since the MT should be getting +10 stacks on them right about that time).

    On Horridon as a tank the actual amount of movement is very little (you do run from gate to gate, but no reason to be faster or slower + you just sidestep swipes)

    On council i personally do barely any movement and if the add is slowed easily kitable even w/o the speed buff.

    On Meg you can benefit from slightly bigger speed boost, but it just gets you to stack point 0.5 sec faster (generally always get there before the new head is up anyway)

    On Ji-kun I'm not sure the cooldown on down draft but can see this as one of the places where SoL wins by a lot.

    On durumu, don't need *jittery* speed boosts (that priest bubble speed boost is annoying sometimes) since maze isn't going to form any faster.

    On primodius again, static +speed is nice for pure back peddling (granted with enough haste or luck with speed buffs might be able to keep up LAotL 100% of the time)

    On dark don't really see any need in any of them. Possibly LAotL to run out of bubbles.

    Iron Qoh - Agree on SoL for tornado and LAotL for the rest, but i would go with SoL because that's the most annoying phase.

    Twins (o hello there SWP) - LAotL just so you can get to meteor faster.

    Lei-Shen - either SoL is you're having trouble with decapitate. Otherwise i'd keep PoJ / LAotL for the winds / moving from platform to platform (depends on tactic)

  3. #3
    I would like to say the opposite, I feel like you are overvalueing PoJ. LAotL is far from jittery with its uptime. It is not an unreliable buff, its uptime is 100% predictable and outshines PoJ by far. PoJ just loses so hard to LAotL for constant moving and minor adjustments.

    It is undeniably far behind both the other talents on any given fight this tier, the only reason to use it is because if you like the talent, no other reason, there is just no benefit with it at all.

    And well yeah, as I mentioned, on most fights, it does not really matter what skill you have as movement is minimum, but still, one skill will give you a small edge. Even how minimum it is. Like you mentioned on Jin'rokh, Horridon, Council etc, which was also the reason I did not highlight them in the summary, as in the end, whichever choice have very low impact.

    Also as you said on durumu (and I also said myself), whichever speed boost you take is not really important, however LAotL and SoL will help you on the small things more than PoJ.

    On meg, getting to a new head is kinda irrelevant as you can do that withou talents, the benefit comes in turning the heads away from the raid before breaths and getting back into position to nuke the correct head.

    As you said on primordius, I am not really sure you understand how LAotL works, it has nothing to with luck, only way to keep LAotL up 100% is by using SW talent. Still, using PoJ over LAotL on a fight that involves constant slow kiting, or constant running, i.e. chasing adds or boss, has no logic in it at all.

    Dark animus, running out of bubbles, positioning adds etc, it is nothing major, as most fights. But hey, I rather run with a talent then run without talents.

    Iron Qon, yeah, I rock SoL myself, but as I mentioned, if you have something like a lock portal or priest grip that you are using, you wont need that as the tornado phase is completely negated.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-04-04 at 02:26 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  4. #4
    What i meant by jittery isn't that it's unpredictable. It's that it's not up 100% of the time (granted last time i tested i had a lot less haste) and that the difference between when you have it and when you don't is very noticeable. It's the same reason why half the time i find body and soul very annoying, i start either going a lot faster all of a sudden (and when i'm at the edge on the maze on durumu that is no bueno) or back to normal speed.

    And on Meg, we might have different stack points, but During the entire time the boss is close enough for a melee swing and i have more than enough time to get into position (while dpsing the entire time) and turn the head, before the first Breath.

  5. #5
    Difference with LAotL and Body and Soul, is that you control one, not the other. Body and Soul can catch you off guard, LAotL you know when it is coming.

    @Meg Don't you dps the other boss between the breaths? Atleast for me it goes like, lets say we are killing red and I am blue.

    Massacre -> Dps Red -> Massacre stops, keep dpsing red -> When it is 2 seconds left to breath, run and turn the head away from raid -> After breath turn back and dps red, wait for next breath, repeat until dead. I barely spend any time on the non-kill head at all, even if I am tanking it, I am doing 80-90% of my damage to the kill target. Even using Judgement and AS on the other head when facing my head away from the breath.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Difference with LAotL and Body and Soul, is that you control one, not the other. Body and Soul can catch you off guard, LAotL you know when it is coming.

    @Meg Don't you dps the other boss between the breaths? Atleast for me it goes like, lets say we are killing red and I am blue.

    Massacre -> Dps Red -> Massacre stops, keep dpsing red -> When it is 2 seconds left to breath, run and turn the head away from raid -> After breath turn back and dps red, wait for next breath, repeat until dead. I barely spend any time on the non-kill head at all, even if I am tanking it, I am doing 80-90% of my damage to the kill target. Even using Judgement and AS on the other head when facing my head away from the breath.
    Was thinking of doing that, but i have a feeling that healers might not be too happy with me even standing there (even if no1 gets hit by the breath). Plus that's where generally cinders were being dropped as of late.


    And while i do know when it's coming, if i'm running at *regular* speed, and then judge, i have to remember that now i'm going almost 50% faster, as opposed to gaining only +5% speed.
    I'm not saying that they're worse or better (except for SoL on some fights where it's just better unless you have something like lock gate), but SoJ is very very viable on most of the fights (until the point when you have keep 100% uptime on LAotL).

  7. #7
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    I'd actually value SoL higher than LAotL on Twins. I'm usually tanking Lu'lin in p3 and SoL allows me to run to Suen while Lu'lin is casting Tidal Waves. Since we usually pop BL around that point, I make sure that I waste close to zero dps uptime on the bosses. Also, in p2, running to far away comet is much easier with SoL.
    I actually run SoL for most bosses, since there's not much movement involved, but when there is, I prefer to be fast.
    As for Durumu and Primordius, my personal choice goes to PoJ. It might not be the most effective but I like to move at constant speed, not at rush/slow/rush/slow mode that LAotL provides. I have quite high haste and LAotL buff has about 65% uptime for me but still, I don't like it.
    On Megaera, I'm usually tanking the head that is being DPSed. We kill Frost>Fire>Venom>Repeat, and I start on Venom and then move Fire>Venom>Frost>Repeat, thus going where all other dps go. Got ranked on almost all the bosses last reset (except for Jin'rokh, didn't log him, and Council - since I have no target to tank for quite some time as my boss is getting killed first): Horridon-43, Tortos-45, Megaera-76, Ji-Kun-112, Durumu-114, Primordius-65, Iron Qon-62, Twins-69, Lei Shen-68. That's 25N ofc.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 90 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU
    Raiding 25man, 10hrs/week, 14/14H.

  8. #8
    For Megaera, you really should. Was playing this week with a new tank on Megaera that didn't do this. I did almost 8 million more damage than him on his head than he did on mine. It is for sure worth it.

    I do not feel like the argument that gets tossed around way to much for pro PoJ just cuts it.
    That you have to remember when you get the run speed or not from LAotL. when you use it for a while, you get so used to it.
    It becomes a matter of the flow. It is like I would argue if we had the choice either between having SotR or having a flat 20% damage reduction instead of SotR.

    "I would rather have 20% damage reduction than having SotR because if I use SotR I have to remember when I use it" - Said no paladin ever

    Difference is that SotR need to be timed more and LAotL is much more predictable on a shorter timer and higher uptime.


    And also people are often presuming that PoJ will have 2-3 HoPo always, this is not always the case. Though even presuming 3 HoPo of PoJ ALWAYS, it is still worse than LAotL on almost every fight.

    As I mentioned in the OP, most of the LAotL vs PoJ was covered in the earlier thread. If you haven't read it, you should.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...nd-discussions
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #9
    Used to be a POJ Junkie too (because haste to boots!), but swapped to LAotL after much discussion with Firefly and really never looked back. I use it on every boss in ToT minus JiKun (SOL > all).

    That said, I am an engineer, so I STILL have an on-demand sprint (or on-demand DOT, if I'm unlucky), which greatly devalues SOL for me on many encounters. And with 12k+ haste, LAotL is up ~70% of the time. Even with just passive 8% speed from boots, I've never been unable to get to where I need to be, and LAotL has actually saved me many times on getting OUT of something quickly, or getting TO something on time.

    I tried SOL on Lei Shen for Decap, but now I just 1) bubble or 2) rocket boots. Even if I just long-arm away, I can long-arm back in again too. I also tried SOL on JinRohk for the cross-field toss, but found that long-arm+boots or just long-arm early gives more than enough time.

    It takes some getting used to, but LAotL is to speed increases, what ShotR is to dmg redux. On demand, high power versus always-on but low power (POJ). As long as you can understand when to and effectively use the high power ability, you'll get much more out of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    I'd actually value SoL higher than LAotL on Twins. I'm usually tanking Lu'lin in p3 and SoL allows me to run to Suen while Lu'lin is casting Tidal Waves. Since we usually pop BL around that point, I make sure that I waste close to zero dps uptime on the bosses. Also, in p2, running to far away comet is much easier with SoL.
    I edited the twins part to reflect both LAotL and SoL having their benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I tried SOL on Lei Shen for Decap, but now I just 1) bubble or 2) rocket boots.
    Cant remember if you raid 10 or 25, but if 10, tried just using SotR + Dprot / Smaller cooldown like trinket or stoneform or whatever for decapitate? VENGEAAAANCE!
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-04-04 at 04:07 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #11
    While i will test LAotL again (last time i tested it was really early into T14 with almost no haste --> shitty uptime), i don't really see any point in using SoL on lei shen, i think i've had no problems running across 75% of the platform before getting hit with decap, with 30% speed boost at best.

    And again imo LAotL might be better, but in my opinion it depends too much on uptime. The argument isn't flat 20% dmg reduction vs SotR it's more like passive 20+mastery vs on demand 40+mastery. There are very few fights where i'm not likely to be sitting at 3+ HoP when i may need to move out of melee range (iron qoh, and possibly lei-shen based on strat) so most of the times i will be at 3(+).

    Also sort of unrelated but in 10 man there's no reason for both tanks to be running decapitates. Determine which tank has the highest DPS and "sit" him on the boss with the offtank taunting ~1 sec before decapitate. Taunt back --> you're free to stay and dps on the boss, offtank is free to start running to get decap. Plus if it's really that bad should be able to negate decapitate with AD --> WoG and then BoAK to negate the effect of debuff (not sure if bubble / HoP would remove it).

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Cant remember if you raid 10 or 25, but if 10, tried just using SotR + Dprot / Smaller cooldown like trinket or stoneform or whatever for decapitate? VENGEAAAANCE!
    10m here. Interesting, I thought about that (or just popping AD, although not sure if that even works anymore), since you can take fusion slashes over and over without dying. Only issue is that we get 2 Decap's, I'd be concerned about getting slammed on the second one.

    Is this idea to allow for 1-tanking? I suppose phase 1 and 2 would be doable, given the above, but wouldn't the debuff in p3 stack too high? Or can we bubble that off? Honestly never tried, we always just 2-tanked it. But I do love me some 1-tanking

    Anyhow, back on topic, I'd say that the best fight that's a candidate for POJ would be Durumu, but wanted to note that (if you 2-tank), POJ is great for dropping pools/avoiding disintegration beams. Even if you 1-tank, I'd still say that LAotL is better for the maze phase, since the only real danger on that fight (in normal) is when the maze is still forming and you have to find the safe spots. Long Arm will get you there faster than POJ (not that it's really a tank danger, just sayin...).

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-04 at 04:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    While i will test LAotL again (last time i tested it was really early into T14 with almost no haste --> shitty uptime), i don't really see any point in using SoL on lei shen, i think i've had no problems running across 75% of the platform before getting hit with decap, with 30% speed boost at best.

    And again imo LAotL might be better, but in my opinion it depends too much on uptime. The argument isn't flat 20% dmg reduction vs SotR it's more like passive 20+mastery vs on demand 40+mastery. There are very few fights where i'm not likely to be sitting at 3+ HoP when i may need to move out of melee range (iron qoh, and possibly lei-shen based on strat) so most of the times i will be at 3(+).

    Also sort of unrelated but in 10 man there's no reason for both tanks to be running decapitates. Determine which tank has the highest DPS and "sit" him on the boss with the offtank taunting ~1 sec before decapitate. Taunt back --> you're free to stay and dps on the boss, offtank is free to start running to get decap. Plus if it's really that bad should be able to negate decapitate with AD --> WoG and then BoAK to negate the effect of debuff (not sure if bubble / HoP would remove it).
    The only thing with POJ uptime and always having X HoPo is that, well, you don't. Let's look at Horridon, there are times where Dire Call will go out 1-2 sec prior to the Trip Punc. One SHotR SHOULD cover that, but it's far safer to bank 5, and back-to-back ShotR for ~5 sec of coverage (to protect from the bookend melees). Obv, your bar will be at 0 during this time. If you have to move for a swipe, you're stuck at 15%. Doable, but you could also Judge with LAotL and get the sprint instead.

    I don't think anyone is saying that you can't tank with POJ, just that pound-for-pound, it's not AS good as LAotL. And that's purely because you can (and should) use LAotL much like a ShotR in terms of movement, even though with haste levels this tier we're going to see damn near 85% uptime on the sprint.

    Also, Bubble does negate Decap, I assume BoP does as well, but you need to keep the shield up. Canceling the aura doesn't drop the cast as far as I'm aware. Hope that made sense ><
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-04-04 at 04:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    While i will test LAotL again (last time i tested it was really early into T14 with almost no haste --> shitty uptime), i don't really see any point in using SoL on lei shen, i think i've had no problems running across 75% of the platform before getting hit with decap, with 30% speed boost at best.
    You can do any fight without any move speed increase. The point is, which do the best job. If you can wait 2 more seconds before running out and return to the boss 1 second earlier with SoL than PoJ, then you just saved 3 seconds of dps time. Both abilities obviously worked, but one did the better job at it.

    Its like, if I used Eternal Flame for whatever reason last week. I do not go.

    "I really see no point in using Sacred Shield, I used Eternal Flame and I had no problem surviving".
    No, I had no problem surviving, but SS would still have been better.
    It is kind of the same thing here, yes you can do any boss with any talent. That does not mean that all talents are as good.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-04 at 04:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    10m here. Interesting, I thought about that (or just popping AD, although not sure if that even works anymore), since you can take fusion slashes over and over without dying. Only issue is that we get 2 Decap's, I'd be concerned about getting slammed on the second one.

    Is this idea to allow for 1-tanking? I suppose phase 1 and 2 would be doable, given the above, but wouldn't the debuff in p3 stack too high? Or can we bubble that off? Honestly never tried, we always just 2-tanked it. But I do love me some 1-tanking
    We used 1 tank a while during progress when we only had 1 tank. We had 3 decapitates. Popped GoAK for the first, DP + Stoneformon the second and Ardent Defender on the third. The buff falls down between them, but you will get hit by a truck.

    We did not kill it with one tank however, but that was not due to 1 tanking not working, that was simply because we had 2 tanks with bad off specs when we killed it.

    You know me, Mr. Solo Tank, got solo tank tactics for 12/12

    @Durumu, yeah, it is one of those fights where it doesn't matter. I use LAotL for lazyness, but I think it can be argued SoL is the best there.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-04 at 04:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    And again imo LAotL might be better, but in my opinion it depends too much on uptime. The argument isn't flat 20% dmg reduction vs SotR it's more like passive 20+mastery vs on demand 40+mastery. There are very few fights where i'm not likely to be sitting at 3+ HoP when i may need to move out of melee range (iron qoh, and possibly lei-shen based on strat) so most of the times i will be at 3(+).
    Would be closer to compare like 3000 mastery vs 6000 on demand mastery with short CD and 75% uptime. But still think 20% flat damage reduction vs SotR was a more accurate comparison
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-04-04 at 04:42 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    The only thing with POJ uptime and always having X HoPo is that, well, you don't. Let's look at Horridon, there are times where Dire Call will go out 1-2 sec prior to the Trip Punc. One SHotR SHOULD cover that, but it's far safer to bank 5, and back-to-back ShotR for ~5 sec of coverage (to protect from the bookend melees). Obv, your bar will be at 0 during this time. If you have to move for a swipe, you're stuck at 15%. Doable, but you could also Judge with LAotL and get the sprint instead.

    I don't think anyone is saying that you can't tank with POJ, just that pound-for-pound, it's not AS good as LAotL. And that's purely because you can (and should) use LAotL much like a ShotR in terms of movement, even though with haste levels this tier we're going to see damn near 85% uptime on the sprint.

    Also, Bubble does negate Decap, I assume BoP does as well, but you need to keep the shield up. Canceling the aura doesn't drop the cast as far as I'm aware. Hope that made sense ><
    I meant bubble / BoP to cancel out the debuff. (which is much more annoying than the actual decap).
    And the reason i didn't mention horridon is because there's basically no movement there except when switching between gates. Granted so far haven't done any Heroics this tier (only got lei-shen down last week).


    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You can do any fight without any move speed increase. The point is, which do the best job. If you can wait 2 more seconds before running out and return to the boss 1 second earlier with SoL than PoJ, then you just saved 3 seconds of dps time. Both abilities obviously worked, but one did the better job at it.

    Its like, if I used Eternal Flame for whatever reason last week. I do not go.

    "I really see no point in using Sacred Shield, I used Eternal Flame and I had no problem surviving".
    No, I had no problem surviving, but SS would still have been better.
    It is kind of the same thing here, yes you can do any boss with any talent. That does not mean that all talents are as good.
    Well again in this case i would actually argue for LAotL (or just staying on the boss and having the offtank run all decaps).

    Also on still unrelated note, could ya bump/update your old post about solo tanking bosses ? As i look more and more i see a lot fights doable as paladin, and not really doable as other classes but some of the fights still seem like it would be slightly too much stress on the healers.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Also on still unrelated note, could ya bump/update your old post about solo tanking bosses ? As i look more and more i see a lot fights doable as paladin, and not really doable as other classes but some of the fights still seem like it would be slightly too much stress on the healers.
    But... but.. I wanna keep my rank 1's

    Could do a post a new post about solo tanking later tonight, prot pala PoV.

    Any special fights you are wondering about maybe I can answer quickly here.


    And well, that case on Emperor, would actually argue for SoL>LAotL>PoJ purely for decapetate. Overall it is kinda SoL=LAotL as they both have their ups and downs on that fight and which of SoL and LAotL is the best depends on your playstyle and tactic.

    But I much prefer just standing still eating decaps to the face.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-04-04 at 05:27 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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