1. #1

    [SPECULATION/LORE] Old Gods, the Burning Legion, and the Ordering of Azeroth

    This may turn out to be a bit rambly, because it touches on a large number of topics, but I'd love to get some lore junkies to weigh in here.

    We've got a lot of villains, and a lot of allies out there currently. For villains, at the top of our adversary list are the Burning Legion and the Old Gods. At the top of our allies list are the Naaru, and (presumably) the Titans. I'm curious how they all fit together.

    Villains

    Of course, there are the Old Gods. Most sources say that they arrived on Azeroth after its creation. Their whispers were behind the madness of Deathwing. Their death rattles spawn Sha, making victory over them also eventually end in defeat. They are chaos itself, and are the mortal enemies of the Titans (who value Order above all).

    Then there is the Burning Legion. The Burning Legion is led by Sargeras, a Titan who was tasked with enforcing order by eliminating chaotic races like the Nathrezim. Faced with the chaos of the universe, Sargeras despaired and fell to Darkness - enslaving these races into the Burning Legion. He as sent his legion on a Burning Crusade, a quest to bring destruction to all worlds that were ordered by the Titans.

    Seemingly unconnected, right? I think, however, that if you look deeper there is a connection. So far as we know, the Old Gods pre-date the Burning Legion, or at least their presence on Azeroth pre-dates them, by countless millenia. If you think back to the Burning Legion and what brought them to Azeroth, you'll remember that it was the War of the Ancients, when Azshara attempted to summon Sargeras into Azeroth. This led to the Sundering. You'll also remember that it was during this time that Deathwing, already influenced by the Old God N'zoth, began creating the Dragon Soul/Demon Soul - supposedly to combat the Burning Legion, but in actuality meant for it to enslave the other dragonflights (Keep in mind that the Dragonflights are led by the aspects, who are empowered directly by the Titans).

    Could it be that N'zoth, and not Sargeras, was whispering to Azshara as well as Deathwing? Could the Old Gods be in league with the Legion, or simply using the Legion as a tool to bring chaos to Azeroth?

    Let's look at another, more concrete example. The Infinite Dragonflight's actions during BC and Wrath indicate that they are working for the Burning Legion - every one of their plots, had they been succesful, would have led to the victory of the Burning Legion. Had Arthas never purged Stratholme, he never would have become the Lich King and wrested away from the Legion, allowing the Legion to use the Scourge to destroy Azeroth. Had Thrall never escaped Durnholde, the Horde would never have left for Kalimdor, and Kalimdor would have falled under the might of the Legion. Had they succeeded in stopping Medivh from summoning the Horde to Azeroth via the Dark Portal, the Eastern Kingdoms would have been soft due to years of peace, and would have fallen quickly to the might of the Legion. But wait! In End time, we see the true endgame of the Infinite Dragonflight - and it coincides with Deathwing's ultimate plan, the Hour of Twilight - Which is orchestrated by the Old Gods!

    So... build me the connection, because I see bits but not the whole picture. How are the Old Gods and the Legion connected? I don't buy it that they are completely seperate - at the very least they are using eachother to further their own goals.

  2. #2
    Scarab Lord Miralynn's Avatar
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    ...and according to the latest ebook dragon lore from Knaak the Hack, it seems to be hinting that the existence of the Scourge might pre-date even the empowerment of the Aspects. In Kalec's visions of a young Malygos, Galakrond (you know, the hugeass proto-dragon whose bones take up a significant chunk of Dragonblight?) is attacking and eating other dragons by the score, and is described as half-rotting in places. Plus he pukes up 'victims' who appear to be rather less than entirely dead.

    Wouldn't surprise me at all if even the Scourge is a case of 'Old Gods did it... a bazillion years ago.'
    When asked about the role of women in video games, Samus Aran said, "..." - and then she blew up the planet. AGAIN.

  3. #3
    I thought it was common knowledge that the Old Gods transformed the Highborne elves into Naga, not the legions power. Or rather one Old God, the one who resides beneath the Well of Eternity (now called The Maelstrom). Also, it was never hinted anywhere by any official source that N'zoth is the source of Neltharian's corruption, or that it is indeed him who lives below The Maelstrom. It is all 100% speculation that players have taken to be fact over time. The only reason we think it is him is because that is the only other Old God currently alive/active that we know the name of.

    If there is any connection between the legion and the Old Gods, I think it's more subtle, like the Old Gods are responsible for creating the first demons that eventually drove Sargeras to insanity. I think overall the legion has paid little heed to the Old Gods, and is more bent on conquering more "gentle" foes to secure sources of arcane power. Why that is, we don't know. But I imagine the guys in charge of the legion do respect the Old Gods on some level, and acknowledge they are probably not worth being openly hostile against at this time.

    That said - the only Old Gods we know of reside on Azeroth, it's currently unknown to us if there are any infesting other worlds in the Great Dark, but perhaps not unkown to the legion. So the connection between them could be one yet unexplored or hinted at in any known lore.

    Also, read this if you are an Old God junkie, it's really interesting; The Genesis of Azeroth

    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  4. #4
    Sargeras (The Great Enemy of All Life) wants nothing to exist, no life, he wants to see the entire universe destroyed, the Old Gods want to rule the Universe, they have common enemies and i doubt they wouldn't team up. but the end game for both is way different, to have everything cease to exist and the other to rule all existence. It also takes a lot of power to summon Sargeras, which i think the old gods have more then enough to do. In their mind the old gods will strike a deal with Sargeras by bringing him and his legion to do what they do best, wipe out all life, while sargeras would agree, his intention is to get summoned and then just destroy everything. Kinda a two faced two face deal lol
    I Serve Only Sargeras.

  5. #5
    Deathwing - corrupted by Old Gods
    Azshara - worked with the Legion, failed during War of the Ancients and was abandoned. Saved by the Old Gods, now serves them.

    I don't think the Old Gods and the Legion are in cahoots, and in fact, there is strong reasoning to suggest that they are enemies.

  6. #6
    The Old God under the Maelstrom (whom people presume is N'zoth) tried to change the time line (Well of Eternity books) and the Demon Soul OR Sargeras getting on Azeroth would have been enough to free all Old Gods from their prisons.
    Seeing how the Old Gods basically wanted Sargeras to get on Azeroth so they would be free, makes me think that N'zoth > Sargeras, or that N'zoth is overconfident/arrogant to think he can handle Sargeras.

    So seeing it that way, I really doubt the Legion & Old Gods are in cahoots.

    The bigger thing in the new Knaak e-book thingies if the "humanoid" that Kalecgos sees, is the one who made the "pre-WC3" scourge. After all, it is strange to see a HUMAN in a Proto-Dragon infested world, pre-sundering.

  7. #7
    I don't see a connection, beyond the Old Gods occasionally manipulating them for their own ends. The destruction of Azeroth's defenders leaves the playing field open for the Old Gods free to rise up and break their shackles without interference.

    As Irosol says, Sargeras wants order through exterminating all living things, while the Old Gods seek endless chaos through corrupting all living things. They would naturally be opposed to one another.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Miralynn View Post
    ...and according to the latest ebook dragon lore from Knaak the Hack, it seems to be hinting that the existence of the Scourge might pre-date even the empowerment of the Aspects. In Kalec's visions of a young Malygos, Galakrond (you know, the hugeass proto-dragon whose bones take up a significant chunk of Dragonblight?) is attacking and eating other dragons by the score, and is described as half-rotting in places. Plus he pukes up 'victims' who appear to be rather less than entirely dead.

    Wouldn't surprise me at all if even the Scourge is a case of 'Old Gods did it... a bazillion years ago.'
    Except we have lore directly stating that the Scourge began to form shoooortlyish after Ner'zhul tore Draenor apart with those portals when he was captured by Kil'jaeden, tortured, stripped of all flesh, sealed into a suit of armor and a sword, which was all sealed into a block of enchanted ice, then thrown at Azeroth.

  9. #9
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Except we have lore directly stating that the Scourge began to form shoooortlyish after Ner'zhul tore Draenor apart with those portals when he was captured by Kil'jaeden, tortured, stripped of all flesh, sealed into a suit of armor and a sword, which was all sealed into a block of enchanted ice, then thrown at Azeroth.
    It's most likely Old God Undeath or some kind of non living thing.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    It's most likely Old God Undeath or some kind of non living thing.
    Yeah it's not proper Scourge by any account.

    Actually if anyone remembers Knaak mentioned an island in the first part of the WotA trilogy with some undead on it that really freaked Krasus or Rhonin out. They could be connected.

  11. #11
    There is an KYL from wow insider written by Matt Rossi that suggests that Sargares is the titan that "fell" fighting the Y'...that created the sha. He makes the point that the titan is described as fallen not neccasarily dead. It would explain why the legion takes such a special interest in Azeroth.

    Personally I think that there is something we don't yet know about the entire arrangment, between old gods, the curse of the flesh , and the titans, that will change everything. No idea what it is though......

  12. #12
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brohez View Post
    There is an KYL from wow insider written by Matt Rossi that suggests that Sargares is the titan that "fell" fighting the Y'...that created the sha. He makes the point that the titan is described as fallen not neccasarily dead. It would explain why the legion takes such a special interest in Azeroth.

    Personally I think that there is something we don't yet know about the entire arrangment, between old gods, the curse of the flesh , and the titans, that will change everything. No idea what it is though......


    Highly doubtful. There's no evidence of that and that was I believe after Sargeras turned.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Brohez View Post
    Personally I think that there is something we don't yet know about the entire arrangment, between old gods, the curse of the flesh , and the titans, that will change everything. No idea what it is though......
    This is kinda what I'm getting at - I think there's a bigger picture here (I also think there's a bigger picture with the Naaru + the Titans)

  14. #14
    The big question, for me, is what would happen if a naaru and a titan saw each other walking down some cosmic street. Would one bow to the other? Would one not be able to perceive the other?

  15. #15
    I think the question would be if they did not agree what would they do? It be an interesting scenario to see the Titans and Naaru disagree to the point of conflict.

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