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  1. #1
    Stood in the Fire KBWarriors's Avatar
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    Mage Here - How Do I Handle Rogues?

    I haven't done much PvP in MoP so I decided to start up and I'm hating this.

    Rogues are my worst and absolute nightmare.

    Here's how the majority of them start out

    Silence Opener
    Stun
    Cloak of Shadows
    Vanish if i'm still alive to re-open

    How the hell do I combat these things?

    I also had a Rogue throw me to death... I don't know how or what it is, but he was spamming some throw attack and doing 30-50k each and every single hit.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by KBWarriors View Post
    I haven't done much PvP in MoP so I decided to start up and I'm hating this.

    Rogues are my worst and absolute nightmare.

    Here's how the majority of them start out

    Silence Opener
    Stun
    Cloak of Shadows
    Vanish if i'm still alive to re-open

    How the hell do I combat these things?

    I also had a Rogue throw me to death... I don't know how or what it is, but he was spamming some throw attack and doing 30-50k each and every single hit.
    With great difficulty.

    but seriously, you have to freeze them and line of sight them if you're on the defensive. Ranging won't work, so LoS. Rogues die, if you get through their cds, but you have to survive in the mean-time.

    So, lay into them with mini damage, try to nova a bomb, run like hell if they pop cds like Shadow Dance. Line of sight the rogue and wait for dance to fall off. DON't BLINK OUT OF THE FIRST STUN, IT'S NOT THE LONG ONE (so I've been told by another mage that this is bad). Force Cloak of shadows after their offensive cds are done. Don't go full out yet, they still have preparation and can recloak. Once you have forced cloak a second time Nova a bomb, throw frozen orb, alter time, lance lance FFB, alter time lance lance ffb nova deep freeze lance, they'll be dead. It's all about waiting for the moment and surviving until then. but you HAVE to force their defensives for this to work.

  3. #3
    I will tell you what bothers me about mages, make him waste trinket on derpfreeze, survive enought with all your cooldown for 30 sec, re-derp freeze him and pop all the offensive cooldown + bomb-frostbolt-icelance FFB gg you won.

    The hard èpart is staying alive for another 30 sec then is all lulz


  4. #4
    I would just leave the keyboard and let them kill you so you can rez at gy with full health and mana! No but seriously... rogues are OP against casters right now... however they are UP against melee... why they thought rogues needed buffs against casters is beyond me... They need buffs VS melee much much more...

    As a priest I have to blow my defensive during cheapshot, then scream, shield, heal, dot them up, then when they cast kidney I trinket out and then at that point I play very offensively hoping that I can either kill them (only happens if they are bad) or hoping that someone will come to rescue me... or hoping they will ragequit (leave bg out of frustration) because if they reset and nobody comes to help I'm pretty much dead unless they do not play their class properly.

    The funny thing is I've had quite a few of them ragequit just by playing aggressively... It's like they are not used to that... I noticed if you just play defensively you will not get them off of you... they will relentlessly attack you until either you die, or go oom, or someone comes to help and they run away. Of course all of this is more useful to a healer than a dps but still.

  5. #5
    I'm curious as to what your gear is like? Since you just decided to start up pvping something tells me you are way behind in gear? If that is the case then its self expanatory. If your not behind in gear and are running full s13 then you need to survive their opener, if you can do that, then your golden. Blow your survival cd's and live through the opening burst and you should be ok. Don't try to kite because Shuriken Toss will melt your face for the most part.

  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral nerdjames's Avatar
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    If you're undergeared, you're probably just going to die a lot. The average FotM rat rogue seems to troll around battlegrounds to blow every cooldown on low resil targets. Skill can overcome this to a degree, but it's really hard if you don't have a healer nearby since they'll still just grind you down with shuriken toss. As was already said though, basically you just have to live long enough to go offensive. If you can put a rogue in a deep freeze and he has no trinket for it, you should be able to kill him in it. To get to that point though, you'll have to deal with up to two vanishes, a cloak, and getting him to trinket a CC (he'll probably only trinket deep freeze though).

    I tried to write up something of a how-to guide, but of all duel matchups this may be the one with the most variables. I'll just leave a list of tips.
    • Paralytic poison is the most common nonlethal poison, but it has a much lower proc rate than mind-numbing. With the way their 4-piece bonus works, this means that rogues can be slow to get a snare on you. Even if paralytic procs on their first autoattack, there's a short delay before a crippling poison is applied.
    • You can still pet nova while garroted. Nova his opener and run away to force a cloak or vanish.
    • Don't be afraid to trinket something. I feel like there's still this perception that any trinket will cause a rogue to just blind you and reset, but your now-permanent pet will keep him from restealthing without vanish. Also, if he has dance or shadowblades up he probably won't want to waste it by blinding you.
    • You can blizzard a smokebomb if he tries to restealth in one.
    • Try to iceblock a shadowdance or cloak of shadows. Many rogues seem to use them at the same time, so that makes it easier for you.
    • Paralytic poison's stun doesn't DR with normal stuns, so be careful when you blink. You can see the stack as a debuff, and you get stunned for 4 seconds on the fifth stack. Cheap (5s) and kidney (up to 6s) are both longer duration.
    • If you have to tank him, try to alter time it. You can use of this is after blinking a cheapshot knowing you'll be half kidneyed, heading into a para stun, or as you see him use an offensive cooldown.
    • You can pet nova in iceblock.
    • Despite what people will tell you about shuriken toss, it does do less damage than they're capable of in melee range.

    I recommend finding a rogue to duel. Just try different approaches to see what works.

  7. #7
    Pet nova him when he garrotes if he cloaks use blazing speed and make sure to spam cone of cold on cool down its a 60% snare vs his 50% snare. Don't show him your back or he will back stab the same thing for dance but he probably has cloak and dagger making that harder. Block his dance that is his "oh snap I win button". Only tips I can give.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans Emfg's Avatar
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    The thing I noticed from good mages while watching livestreams is that you shouldn't be careful about blocking early. Blocking a rogue his opener/cds is really viable. Or so I think.

    Besides that don't be afraid to try and cast polymorph. Polymorph is an amazing CC to reset a fight with, just like a rogue his blind.

  9. #9
    You should always block he's opener if you under geared. If you are being opened up on take the chance and block if you can't see him he probably uses he's CDs. If he didn't then this gives you some time to think. Your next block is 30 seconds if you have cold snap (which you should).

    The only other thing is cloak of shadows. Most mages save block for that.

    If you are under geared then you won't win. Because you really need the resilience for that opener. It's crucial on the rogues part and yours.

    Now, most savvy rogues don't open up with all CDs on mages. If you watch people duel you can see it depends on how the rogue opens. Rogue vs mage is basically a cd battle. If you can force CDs before them, you win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    If rogues become shit, all they can become is a different type of shit.

  10. #10
    Kite and keep rooting him. And then kite some more. Did I mention kite?
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by pkm View Post
    You should always block he's opener if you under geared. If you are being opened up on take the chance and block if you can't see him he probably uses he's CDs. If he didn't then this gives you some time to think. Your next block is 30 seconds if you have cold snap (which you should).

    The only other thing is cloak of shadows. Most mages save block for that.

    If you are under geared then you won't win. Because you really need the resilience for that opener. It's crucial on the rogues part and yours.

    Now, most savvy rogues don't open up with all CDs on mages. If you watch people duel you can see it depends on how the rogue opens. Rogue vs mage is basically a cd battle. If you can force CDs before them, you win.
    Start by NOT following this guy's advice lol.
    Blocking an opener for no reason ? Ye that will def NOT get you killed...
    When im playing rogue and a mage blocks my opener, then i will :
    -giggle
    -vanish/shadowmeld
    -sap him after block and wait for drs to go off
    -open full burst and gank him in 5 sec
    (which is very easy since he prolly has a full slicendice to open with because he got some combopoints off from the previous opener)

    When rogue opens with garrote (any decent rogue will always open on a mage with garrote and try to cheap shot him after if he has subterfuge)
    what you need to do is instantly pet nova and run away.
    At that point the rogue will:
    -vanish and reopen with 1.5s silence (sit it but run, this is one of his 2 vanishes what gives you a nice advantage)
    -cloak it (would be epic for you)
    -chill in the nova , just deep him then and do some dmg, if he trinkets then you kill him on next deep
    -smokebomb himself, then just blizzard/coneofcold/frostnova

    Actually im not gonna bother telling you how to react in every situation,
    basically its just about forcing his cds (trinket/cloak/vanishes).
    His trinket should be rather easy, any mage can do insane dmg in a deep even without cds up,
    so rogues just have to trinket it, good rogues will only trinket if you have cds up aswell, but you can counter this tact
    just by popping some cds at first deep but not all.
    His cloak will be used to make sure he gets his shadowdance off, but you should just block the shadowdance anyway so gg,
    or he uses it to get out of roots, so spam root/slow him, or he uses it to prevent from getting ringed so use that in
    good situations (when he is rooted), or he just does it random what i often see lol.
    Vanish is also used to get out of roots or close gaps and reopen, just use the opener tacts i alrdy mentioned.

    So ye thats basically it, bad rogues will trinket first deep and you kill them on second with mage swifty.
    Against good rogues just split your cds for your deeps, so just use 1-2 cds on first deep, if he trinkets then try to kill him with your remaining
    cds on second deep, if not then he will still have dropped 40%+ of his health.

    But ye on a final note, really good rogues are good and hard to beat, they wont waste cds
    and will have feint op 24/7 so its just your skill vs his.
    Last edited by biggischkris; 2013-04-05 at 07:33 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by biggischkris View Post
    Start by NOT following this guy's advice lol.
    Blocking an opener for no reason ? Ye that will def NOT get you killed...
    When im playing rogue and a mage blocks my opener, then i will :
    -giggle
    -vanish/shadowmeld
    -sap him after block and wait for drs to go off
    -open full burst and gank him in 5 sec
    (which is very easy since he prolly has a full slicendice to open with because he got some combopoints off from the previous opener)

    When rogue opens with garrote (any decent rogue will always open on a mage with garrote and try to cheap shot him after if he has subterfuge)
    what you need to do is instantly pet nova and run away.
    At that point the rogue will:
    -vanish and reopen with 1.5s silence (sit it but run, this is one of his 2 vanishes what gives you a nice advantage)
    -cloak it (would be epic for you)
    -chill in the nova , just deep him then and do some dmg, if he trinkets then you kill him on next deep
    -smokebomb himself, then just blizzard/coneofcold/frostnova

    Actually im not gonna bother telling you how to react in every situation,
    basically its just about forcing his cds (trinket/cloak/vanishes).
    His trinket should be rather easy, any mage can do insane dmg in a deep even without cds up,
    so rogues just have to trinket it, good rogues will only trinket if you have cds up aswell, but you can counter this tact
    just by popping some cds at first deep but not all.
    His cloak will be used to make sure he gets his shadowdance off, but you should just block the shadowdance anyway so gg,
    or he uses it to get out of roots, so spam root/slow him, or he uses it to prevent from getting ringed so use that in
    good situations (when he is rooted), or he just does it random what i often see lol.
    Vanish is also used to get out of roots or close gaps and reopen, just use the opener tacts i alrdy mentioned.

    So ye thats basically it, bad rogues will trinket first deep and you kill them on second with mage swifty.
    Against good rogues just split your cds for your deeps, so just use 1-2 cds on first deep, if he trinkets then try to kill him with your remaining
    cds on second deep, if not then he will still have dropped 40%+ of his health.

    But ye on a final note, really good rogues are good and hard to beat, they wont waste cds
    and will have feint op 24/7 so its just your skill vs his.
    Start by re reading what I wrote. Many classes die in an opener even geared. A clothe with no resilience? No questions asked. There isn't much you can do if the rogue targets you. Hell, if you don't have gear you can still die even if he doesn't use cds. Find weakness, master of subtlety, sanguinary vein is more than enough damage in the opener.
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    If rogues become shit, all they can become is a different type of shit.

  13. #13
    ''you don't! and i hope they insta kill u... since ur a mage and all..
    But there again they rape my holy pally aswell... 67%ressi tyrincall and upgraded s12 gear seems to be worthless vs a dreadfull geared rogue so i love u blizz! thanks for CC'ing me untill the end of time! i love u!!

    " A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities "

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by anabolicz View Post
    ''you don't! and i hope they insta kill u... since ur a mage and all..
    But there again they rape my holy pally aswell... 67%ressi tyrincall and upgraded s12 gear seems to be worthless vs a dreadfull geared rogue so i love u blizz! thanks for CC'ing me untill the end of time! i love u!!
    Dreadful? No that's exaggerated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    If rogues become shit, all they can become is a different type of shit.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by pkm View Post
    Start by re reading what I wrote. Many classes die in an opener even geared. A clothe with no resilience? No questions asked. There isn't much you can do if the rogue targets you. Hell, if you don't have gear you can still die even if he doesn't use cds. Find weakness, master of subtlety, sanguinary vein is more than enough damage in the opener.
    This is the perfect example of a clueless person that just wants to rage about class X (rogues in this case)
    I play a mage, when rogue opens i pet nova him and walk away, the garrote bleed ticks for 3k
    so no i dont die in the opener.
    Read my post and maybe you will learn somethng.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by biggischkris View Post
    This is the perfect example of a clueless person that just wants to rage about class X (rogues in this case)
    I play a mage, when rogue opens i pet nova him and walk away, the garrote bleed ticks for 3k
    so no i dont die in the opener.
    Read my post and maybe you will learn somethng.
    Read the first sentence I wrote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    If rogues become shit, all they can become is a different type of shit.

  17. #17
    glyphed molten armour, glyphed evo, go nether tempest
    pet nova jump his garrote or spam blink if he opens with cheap shot first

    block his dance asap and only blink the following kidneys, if hes specced cloak and dagger he will just spam toss and deadly throw.. nothing much you can do about that besides just nuking him back.. alter time with blazing speed up, 2 fof and bf procs and just blink away to gain huge distance, if he waits at your AT image just cancel AT, during smoke bomb you could blink inside with glyphed deep and just burst him down or drop a ring around/on him

    if hes shadow step spec just look at his used abilities and soon as you see step pop up press nova and walk away

    if hes paralytic poison save blazing speed before the stacks get too high but make sure he doesnt shiv you before you sprint away

    you can also spec into ice ward, the root doesnt dr with nova/pet nova.. Id recommend using this if he has step but most of the time I just use my arena spec

    if he saps your pet and opens on you with garrote then block his opener or youll lose too much health without him even using cds, after that youre on your own trying to salvage the situation but I have beaten rogues easily even if they play smart

  18. #18
    Bloodsail Admiral Romandix's Avatar
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    Any half decent mage has a chance against a rogue. Just change the way you go about your business until you have a method that suits your playstyle. I main a Rogue and the difference between a fotm mage and a good mage astounds me. I know rogues are in a good place right now but even in 5.0 i done pretty well against mages, We just have alot of abilities that counter you.
    The great Friedrich Nietzsche once said, Shit happens deal with it.

  19. #19
    u cannot... just pull down ur pants and die blame blizzard,.... hate them complain.... wont matter only thing that will help is if u make ur own rogue

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Nicola; 2013-04-05 at 11:45 AM.

    " A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities "

  20. #20
    I hate to say it, but if you've got very little Resilience, you should be glad it's only rogues you have a serious probably with. When I started PVP on both my DK and Rogue, with no PVP armour, I would get destroyed by anyone so quick I didn't realise what had even happened to me sometimes.

    Get good gear so you're on the same playing field and you'll find things a lot easier.

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