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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by WskyDK View Post
    It all comes down to efficiency. If you don't need a huge heal, and your heal crits, it's a wasted, whereas a haste build allows you to reliably generate chi (mana) and deal with large amounts of incoming aoe damage (efficiently) without overhealing.
    Reglitch has already stated that both builds are about equal, but they have their niche.
    Stomping your feet and saying crit is always better does nothing but hurt the community (especially when you haven't back up anything mathematically yourself)
    Haste
    Renewing Mist
    Soothing Mist
    Hard-casted Surging Mist
    Hard-casted Enveloping Mist
    Enveloping Mist HoT
    Chi Burst cast
    Spinning Crane Kick
    Eminence

    Crit
    Renewing Mist
    Soothing Mist
    Healing Spheres
    Mastery Spheres
    Surging Mist
    Enveloping Mist HoT
    Chi Burst
    Chi Wave
    Zen Sphere
    Revival
    Chi Torpedo
    Spinning Crane Kick
    Expel Harm
    Uplift
    Mana Tea Stacking
    Eminence


    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ MATH

    That's rude of me. But is it really that hard to see? I'm sure you can pull it apart and think of 10 other ways haste benefits or crit benefits. However, EVERY SPELL we have minus Life Cocoon benefits from crit.

    1 crit = 2 normal heals
    1 ReM Crit = 2 ReM non-crit
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ more math

    I'll put money on it, some Mistweaver in a high-ranking guild will have 3145haste and stack crit then EVERYONE will do it.
    This entire discussion will be useless because people follow trends not logic.

    Allow me to put some more math on your table.
    Warriors LOVEEEEEEEEEEE crit. They hate haste.
    By the 'haste stacking" logic: "more haste = more rage = more damage." Well, that logic is wrong.

    You can argue it's a different class all you want. But the logic is the same: All of their abilities benefit from crit and not enough from haste.




    3145 haste - 6141 haste. Get crit, profit.
    Last edited by Angrie; 2013-04-05 at 04:54 PM.

  2. #22
    Mechagnome WskyDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    Haste
    Renewing Mist
    Soothing Mist
    Hard-casted Surging Mist
    Hard-casted Enveloping Mist
    Enveloping Mist HoT
    Chi Burst cast
    Spinning Crane Kick
    Eminence

    Crit
    Renewing Mist
    Soothing Mist
    Healing Spheres
    Mastery Spheres
    Surging Mist
    Enveloping Mist HoT
    Chi Burst
    Chi Wave
    Zen Sphere
    Revival
    Chi Torpedo
    Spinning Crane Kick
    Expel Harm
    Uplift
    Mana Tea Stacking
    Eminence


    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ MATH
    So many numbers.


    This isn't the justice system. He doesn't have to prove you wrong. You have to prove yourself right.

    At least provide logs. Some sort of empirical evidence that will substantiate your position.

    EDIT: nevermind. I don't care.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    I wrote something to you about 3 times, but i've come to the conclusion that no amount of words will get you to understand. No matter what I say, though true, you'll reply with some banter along the lines of "I'm 5/13 heroic, therefore i'm better than you." To which i'll reply with, "i'm 1/13H and your guild doesn't define you as an intelligent player/person/mathematician/philosopher." No offense, but you seem like you are one of those "everyone look at what i'm doing" people. So instead of going through all that and annoying people, i'll just say, you pay for your game, do what you want.
    wot

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    But for the sake of the discussion and to pick at what you said:
    You have 6165haste, why are you not continuing to use the pure haste?
    Just finished progression on megaera, which is obviously a scenario where burst healing is going to be more beneficial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    You realize that 1 Uplift Crit is equal to 2 non-crit Uplifts?
    In terms of raw healing that is correct, but you're forgetting with a full haste build you will still have around 17% crit fully buffed. In my case I also have another 2.6% on demand along with an extra 7k or so spellpower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    Making crit more efficient even if you generate more chi through haste.
    Crit is always going to be more efficient, but with 8.2k spirit and 30% crit I find mana is increasingly difficult to spend. With the HLG H trinket, and the meta gem which is on an RPPM system, I doubt we'll be seeing much difference in terms of net MP5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    ie: Haste generates more Mastery Spheres, but Crit will make them heal for more (1crit sphere = 2 normal spheres). How much haste do you need to outweigh spheres criting?
    Well okay, from losing the 11% crit on gear I'd have and taking a sample of 80 heal hits I'd need to make up for roughly 8 sphere absorbs. Given 9.6% mastery and the scalar of 0.45, that's a 4.32% chance per tick on Soothing Mist. I'd need roughly 19 extra ticks to do an equivalent amount of healing to a crit if I was only using Soothing Mist, 17% base crit included.

    Now I have a 30% haste gain from that crit which puts me at 55% haste. A tick time of .65 versus my former .78 value, so I'd need to channel SM roughly 8 minutes over the course of a fight to make up that difference in mastery with only SM alone.

    Any other questions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    Mathematically and theoretically i'm correct. I'd like to see your proof that crit is not always better than haste in every scenario. Please show your work too.
    Take a look in my signature, plenty of work there to sift through.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 05:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorilaith View Post
    Another thing to consider is that haste affects spells 100% of the time whereas crit is always a chance. Not saying crit is a bad way to go though, it's just haste is consistent and reliable.
    This statement would be fine for any other healer, but since we heal almost entirely through HoTs the RNG is smoothed out quite a lot with crit. It's like rolling a dice, the less rolls you do the more it would seem that there's more of a chance to land on a given side when in reality if the dice isn't loaded it's pretty much 1/6 for each side.
    Last edited by Reglitch; 2013-04-05 at 04:52 PM.
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  4. #24
    Mechagnome WskyDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    I'll put money on it, some Mistweaver in a high-ranking guild will have 3145haste and stack crit then EVERYONE will do it.
    This entire discussion will be useless because people follow trends not logic.
    Affiniti say Hi

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    By the 'haste stacking" logic: "more haste = more rage = more damage." Well, that logic is wrong.
    That logic is correct.
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  6. #26
    Mechagnome WskyDK's Avatar
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    There's nothing wrong with the logic. The reason they stack crit is for procs like enrage.
    The more haste a warrior has, the more damage he will do. But not as much as crit due to procs

  7. #27
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    For pvp I think I will still stick to crit, there are some points in games where that 5% crit can really save you when you need it. I do not think haste would really make up for it, but pve and pvp is different so it is like comparing apples and oranges.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  8. #28
    Oh Reglitch, trying to talk about haste beyond breakpoints without even once mentioning the HPM implications... How many times must we go through this? The extra throughput haste gives (seriously people, haste is more throughput than crit, don't be silly) compared to crit is offset by the amount of extra mana regeneration you need to deal with casting faster plus the lack of mana regeneration from crit.

  9. #29
    I did! I already said I have no worries about my mana currently, a slight HPM decrease isn't worrying at all. I'm working on something which should clear this discussion up totally, it's kind of funny really...

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  10. #30
    People play differently, simple as. You can try to do all the math in the world, it all ends up to the person in question, how he/she play the character. Im not a fan of numbercrunching too much, because the game give you multilpe scenarios on multiple bosses, so to know for sure what is best for YOU, is to simply try it out. Every team is different , the healing teams are (most likely) different guild to guild. You build the character around your playstyle and the people you play with, you shouldn't just follow the crowd or what other people say is "BEST" unless you are somewhat new and in the learning process, trying to figure out how to manage the class some what decently.

    Math with healing is unreliable as fuck compared to dps in that regard. Wing it and use common sense and GG. So skip the crit , skip the haste and go full out agi already.
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  11. #31
    Mechagnome WskyDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nowish View Post
    you shouldn't just follow the crowd or what other people say is "BEST" unless you are somewhat new and in the learning process, trying to figure out how to manage the class some what decently.
    This is the problem though. A person asked a question regarding a breakpoint and was given some information. SO this person is still in a learning process.
    the reason people (myself included) tend to follow the best, is that it's been proven in math and in-game. I've never been a numbers kinda guy and when people like Reglitch, Totaltotemic, Affinichi, and Gnorrior say something works, I listen.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by nowish View Post
    Math with healing is unreliable as fuck compared to dps in that regard. Wing it and use common sense and GG. So skip the crit , skip the haste and go full out agi already.
    Thanks for the sig

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Just finished progression on megaera, which is obviously a scenario where burst healing is going to be more beneficial.
    Grats! The scenario is a constant, bars dip, you replenish them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    In terms of raw healing that is correct, but you're forgetting with a full haste build you will still have around 17% crit fully buffed. In my case I also have another 2.6% on demand along with an extra 7k or so spellpower.
    A firemage could tell you the difference between 17% crit and 30% crit. And even 30% versus 33%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Crit is always going to be more efficient, but with 8.2k spirit and 30% crit I find mana is increasingly difficult to spend. With the HLG H trinket, and the meta gem which is on an RPPM system, I doubt we'll be seeing much difference in terms of net MP5.
    I agree, Crit is always going to be more efficient and will always have a greater impact. I find it hard to believe your 8.2k spirit even with that amount of crit produces sufficent mana regeneration, but to each his own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Well okay, from losing the 11% crit on gear I'd have and taking a sample of 80 heal hits I'd need to make up for roughly 8 sphere absorbs. Given 9.6% mastery and the scalar of 0.45, that's a 4.32% chance per tick on Soothing Mist. I'd need roughly 19 extra ticks to do an equivalent amount of healing to a crit if I was only using Soothing Mist, 17% base crit included.

    Now I have a 30% haste gain from that crit which puts me at 55% haste. A tick time of .65 versus my former .78 value, so I'd need to channel SM roughly 8 minutes over the course of a fight to make up that difference in mastery with only SM alone.
    While i think this could have been put into an equation to make it easier to understand. Are you saying that at <8minutes crit is superior and >8minutes haste is? How do you figure if you can't always channel Soothing Mists? Regardless, it's a lot of RNG. It's math versus practicality in all cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Take a look in my signature, plenty of work there to sift through.
    While i do appreciate people making spreadsheets for those who can't do their own work, I do not take them seriously. I don't know you, i don't know how good your math is. I don't know if you're an excel dweeb, CPA, astrophysicist, or 13 year old who just bought a TI-84. Don't be offended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    This statement would be fine for any other healer, but since we heal almost entirely through HoTs the RNG is smoothed out quite a lot with crit. It's like rolling a dice, the less rolls you do the more it would seem that there's more of a chance to land on a given side when in reality if the dice isn't loaded it's pretty much 1/6 for each side.
    We do not heal primarily through HoTs. Only about ~30% of healing is actually HoTs -- Soothing/Eminence(you could consider this a HoT)/Renewing Mist/Zen Sphere/ Enveloping Mist.

    70% of monk healing is from a combination instants or burst healing via Chi Burst, Chi Torpedo, Uplift, Revival, Gift of the Serpent, Life Cocoon, Chi Wave, Zen Detonation, Healing Sphere, and Expel Harm.

    This is our dilemma: Why put so much weight into a stat to benefit only 30% of healing when we can put it towards 70% of our healing?

    Given most sample sizes, Crit RNG on Renewing Mist is closer to its true crit percentage because most samples are in the thousands -- 1/6 dice roll. Your loaded dice comparison I understand completely, Revival could roll crit for every heal, or it could not crit at all. That however, in math and theory, can't be worked into the equation. Again, a victim of practicality in raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    That logic is correct.
    Don't know what warriors you play with then... LOL. Every warrior has been laughing at blizzards buff to haste. Nice try though.
    Last edited by Angrie; 2013-04-05 at 05:52 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by WskyDK View Post
    It all comes down to efficiency. If you don't need a huge heal, and your heal crits, it's a wasted, whereas a haste build allows you to reliably generate chi (mana) and deal with large amounts of incoming aoe damage (efficiently) without overhealing.
    Reglitch has already stated that both builds are about equal, but they have their niche.
    Stomping your feet and saying crit is always better does nothing but hurt the community (especially when you haven't back up anything mathematically yourself)
    And if you dont need those hasted heals 3-4s later, when haste actually provides said benefit, then crit gave a chance at some benefit, haste gave nothing, thus crit is infinitely better (anything is infinitely better than nothing). The ability to chi dump directly goes against the strengths of haste and pushes crit into bigger favor. As reglitch said, the more you move from chi dumping into "steady healing" haste would theoretically become better than crit. Except, it won't, because you won't be able to sustain SCK with a haste build (maybe haste/spirit hybrid, but not raw haste stacking), and a crit (or spirit) build generating chi with SCK will far outperform a haste build trying to use SoM for the same goal. Ultimately the difference between crit or haste will make up less of a difference than personal skill will, and there are better things to focus on improving than stat weights because they are all similarly powerful. If you ask me though, crit far outperforms haste, at least in the environment I raid in. YMMV.

    The few fights, which I have experience on, where I might advocate haste builds: Heroic Primordius.

    Just about every other fight involves significantly more chi dumping to save the raid then constant-healing generation, which is part of why we're strong this tier (our ability to burst consistently with 4chi storage is much higher than other healers.) As well you can't really SCK on Primordius, and tank healing is an issue, so haste is probably the best stat by far for this fight. On the other hand, it's really kind of a joke to heal, so I wouldn't specialize my gear for it.

    TLDR: IMO, Haste > Crit on fights which are: Quasi-Constant Raid Damage while the raid is spread, and with increased tank damage. Those are the things which haste is amazing at. It's also amazing at AoE healing if you're using SCK, if it were sustainable. However I doubt SCK is sustainable in a haste stacking build. As most fights this tier involve burst damage, I stick with crit. I go for 6141 haste because it's extremely difficult to hit 3145 haste in 520~ iLvl gear, and because the 2set increases ReM's power. Due to fact that all of our stats are strong (well, spirit/crit/haste/int) the interplay of stats means that when you try to go to extremes with any stat of ours, you will likely be non-optimal. Lowering my crit to get 6141 haste has made crit nearly as strong as int for raw throughput, + gains of regen. I say nearly because int is still 10%~ better for me, I haven't had many gear upgrades (RL conflicts w/ farm raid times) and regen isn't a problem, so I have yet to change many gems to int/crit.
    Last edited by Astraios; 2013-04-05 at 06:09 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    Grats! The scenario is a constant, bars dip, you replenish them.
    Bars can either dip all at once or dip consistently throughout a fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    A firemage could tell you the difference between 17% crit and 30% crit. And even 30% versus 33%.
    Yes but you're comparing crit to one extra heal, but you can still crit with the extra heals granted through haste making the relationship a lot more complicated than x crit = y amount of haste it takes to get an extra cast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    I agree, Crit is always going to be more efficient and will always have a greater impact. I find it hard to believe your 8.2k spirit even with that amount of crit produces sufficent mana regeneration, but to each his own.
    Depends on how you play, I'm having trouble getting rid of the stuff though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    While i think this could have been put into an equation to make it easier to understand. Are you saying that at <8minutes crit is superior and >8minutes haste is? How do you figure if you can't always channel Soothing Mists? Regardless, it's a lot of RNG. It's math versus practicality in all cases.
    I'm saying for the purpose of mastery healing crit is going to be more beneficial than haste unless you somehow manage to channel SM for a full 8 minutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    While i do appreciate people making spreadsheets for those who can't do their own work, I do not take them seriously. I don't know you, i don't know how good your math is. I don't know if you're an excel dweeb, CPA, astrophysicist, or 13 year old who just bought a TI-84. Don't be offended.
    That's why I suggested it, you can totally take a look through it yourself and see the formulas I use. In the third version of the spreadsheet being released soon I've used named variables for every calculation so people can interpret them more easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    We do not heal primarily through HoTs. Only about ~30% of healing is actually HoTs -- Soothing/Eminence(you could consider this a HoT)/Renewing Mist/Zen Sphere/ Enveloping Mist.
    HoTs and abilities which hit a very large amount of targets with one press, my mistake!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    This is our dilemma: Why put so much weight into a stat to benefit only 30% of healing when we can put it towards 70% of our healing?
    It doesn't benefit only 30% though, more haste gives more of everything which you otherwise wouldn't have been able to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    Don't know what warriors you play with then... LOL. Every warrior has been laughing at blizzards buff to haste. Nice try though.
    More haste is going to be more damage than if you didn't have that haste, unless you sacrifice crit for it!
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  15. #35
    Mechagnome WskyDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    Grats! The scenario is a constant, bars dip, you replenish them.
    So does every other healer? (go away Disc priest)


    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    A firemage could tell you the difference between 17% crit and 30% crit. And even 30% versus 33%.
    He's a mistweaver, not a fire mage


    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    I agree, Crit is always going to be more efficient and will always have a greater impact. I find it hard to believe your 8.2k spirit even with that amount of crit produces sufficent mana regeneration, but to each his own.\
    He's telling you he does. It doesn't matter if you believe him.




    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    While i do appreciate people making spreadsheets for those who can't do their own work, I do not take them seriously. I don't know you, i don't know how good your math is. I don't know if you're an excel dweeb, CPA, astrophysicist, or 13 year old who just bought a TI-84. Don't be offended.
    Check his math? Seriously, people are giving you answers and tools, and you'r refusing to use them


    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    We do not heal primarily through HoTs. Only about ~30% of healing is actually HoTs -- Soothing/Eminence(you could consider this a HoT)/Renewing Mist/Zen Sphere/ Enveloping Mist.

    70% of monk healing is from a combination instants or burst healing via Chi Burst, Chi Torpedo, Uplift, Revival, Gift of the Serpent, Life Cocoon, Chi Wave, Zen Detonation, Healing Sphere, and Expel Harm.
    Chi Burst/Chi Wave/Zen Sphere. Pick one and stop listing them as tools in our kit we can use at all times. Expel Harm is a self heal and is mainly used as a Chi generator. You also forgot Xeun who benefits from haste and crit, so it's a wash except for lust phases

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    This is our dilemma: Why put so much weight into a stat to benefit only 30% of healing when we can put it towards 70% of our healing?
    Your numbers are off. Here's the top ranked MW on Tortos(a fight that MW dominate pretty hard)
    Last edited by Malthanis; 2013-04-05 at 08:03 PM. Reason: Please refrain from excessive use of font mod tags

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by WskyDK View Post
    This is the problem though. A person asked a question regarding a breakpoint and was given some information. SO this person is still in a learning process.
    the reason people (myself included) tend to follow the best, is that it's been proven in math and in-game. I've never been a numbers kinda guy and when people like Reglitch, Totaltotemic, Affinichi, and Gnorrior say something works, I listen.

    EDIT:

    Thanks for the sig
    Haha no probs

    What Im getting at is that people shouldn't rely on what other say too much because if you are not playing at a high lvl, u won't need it and in most cases ,don't have the required skill to use it properly anyway. If you are playing at a high level, you should be able to figure these things out for yourself :<
    Last edited by nowish; 2013-04-05 at 06:11 PM.
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  17. #37
    Mechagnome WskyDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nowish View Post
    Haha no probs

    What Im getting at is that people shouldn't rely on what other say too much because if you are not playing at a high lvl, u won't need it and in most case don't have the required skill to use it properly anyway. If you are playing at a high level, you should be able to figure these things out for yourself :<
    Agreed completely. The issue is that the forums are filled with the former instead of the latter. So advice given is tailored to that audience

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Bars can either dip all at once or dip consistently throughout a fight.
    I'd prefer to dip out of the bar to fight. The victuals vendor prefers it that way too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Yes but you're comparing crit to one extra heal, but you can still crit with the extra heals granted through haste making the relationship a lot more complicated than x crit = y amount of haste it takes to get an extra cast.
    siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh!!!!!!!!!!!! but a crit IS an extra heal. And yes i understand that that extra heal from haste can crit. I'm not arguing that at all. But going out of your way MORE ticks when CRIT can do that same thing but better. Going PAST 6141 haste is not benefical when you can get crit and benefit EVERY heal in the same "extra tick" fashion.

    I hope you get it. Please get it. I don't want to have to get my microwave instruction manual out for you...


    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Depends on how you play, I'm having trouble getting rid of the stuff though.
    You mean we actually get to PLAY this game? I thought we just talked about how to play constantly in playground brawls.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    I'm saying for the purpose of mastery healing crit is going to be more beneficial than haste unless you somehow manage to channel SM for a full 8 minutes.
    That's what i thought. And at 8 minutes, if that ever happens, it probably RNGs its way ahead again 4 seconds later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    That's why I suggested it, you can totally take a look through it yourself and see the formulas I use. In the third version of the spreadsheet being released soon I've used named variables for every calculation so people can interpret them more easily.
    I find it fun to do it all free-hand. I remember a time before reforge calculators and Mr Robots. When half your skill was dependent on your own ability to itemize your gear. Separated the dudes in epics and the scrubs in blues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    HoTs and abilities which hit a very large amount of targets with one press, my mistake!!!
    TAKE THAT SWINE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    It doesn't benefit only 30% though, more haste gives more of everything which you otherwise wouldn't have been able to have.
    What if i have high ping? Is that GCD reduction going to benefit me? I mean it would me, cause I make money and have a nice computing device. But will it benefit New York Joe playing on an Oceanic server?


    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    More haste is going to be more damage than if you didn't have that haste, unless you sacrifice crit for it!
    ANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN (blowing the buzzer). Wrong. See warriors are very similar to monks. Warriors actually pool their Raging Blows for when they are enraged with Colossus Smash up. So they can do the most damage. Similarly we'll pool Chi, Thunder Focus Tea, and Chi Brew, to use it when it will heal the most. Burst DPS meet Burst healer.
    Last edited by Angrie; 2013-04-05 at 06:25 PM.

  19. #39
    Reg , don't even bother with this guy, he obviously believes that if u go haste, u have 0 crit and will never ever crit . I believe he live under a bridge as well.
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  20. #40
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    I think a point you are missing in your comparison on what scales with haste is that even uplift scales indirectly with haste in that more haste = more chi = more uplifts.

    Also we don't get reduced GCD from haste...we already have 1 sec gcd. Thanks for playing.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2013-04-05 at 06:53 PM.

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