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  1. #1

    Subtlety Viable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharkcrap View Post
    Is subtlety viable for PvE, it's might favorite spec but I've been hearing then its miles behind assassination and combat .

    I gave up on subt, definitely, it's not fun when you put a lot of effort in an encounter as sub, then type /recount show and see how your dps sucks balls...
    it's not fun when you can't use your main cp builder on a gargantuan turtle with her back stuck in stone...

    Half-thread merged to clean up 2 distinct topics. -Mugajak
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-04-05 at 11:40 AM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    I gave up on subt, definitely, it's not fun when you put a lot of effort in an encounter as sub, then type /recount show and see how your dps sucks balls...
    it's not fun when you can't use your main cp builder on a gargantuan turtle with her back stuck in stone...
    Tortos
    -You are marked as Behind the boss if you stand behind his right leg. You can then ambush etc.

    (taken from EJ)

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Meejum View Post
    Tortos
    -You are marked as Behind the boss if you stand behind his right leg. You can then ambush etc.

    (taken from EJ)
    Sure, but your priority is to nuke turtles, then bats, then boss so most of the times you're running around targeting everything but the boss.

  4. #4

    Subtlety Viable?

    Is subtlety viable for PvE, it's might favorite spec but I've been hearing then its miles behind assassination and combat .

  5. #5
    The main problem is even if sub did the same dmg as the other two specs theres just way to many fights this tier that screw the spec over. Theres more fights that are bad for sub in t15 than there were in t14 the spec just got put in the trash completely after the no compensation rppm nerfs which hit it the hardest of the three specs.

  6. #6
    Despite of GC saying it is, imho it's not, voice on the street is that mut>combat>>sub, sub requires very high ilvl, has harder rotation and can't be used at its full potential on many fights (all the fights where u can't sit behind the boss and perform ur rotation), assassination and combat are just higher dmg for much littler effort, so in the end if you just want to have fun in lfr you're free to use sub, if you plan to raid (normal/heroic) forget about that

  7. #7
    Sub has much lower DPS, and backstab is impossible on some fights (dorumu, tortos, to name a few). Combat will get you killed half the time as well trying to perform killmespree.

    Assassination has a simple rotation with intense DPS, so pretty much everyone here would recommend it, although blizzard should really sort their shit out. Remove backstab requirements, rework killing spree and while they're at it stop with the mechanics that ridiculously favor ranged and fights where you cant live without some classes (priest/lock on council).

  8. #8
    Backstab is ok, But killing spree needs a fix.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    Sub has much lower DPS, and backstab is impossible on some fights (dorumu, tortos, to name a few). Combat will get you killed half the time as well trying to perform killmespree.

    Assassination has a simple rotation with intense DPS, so pretty much everyone here would recommend it, although blizzard should really sort their shit out. Remove backstab requirements, rework killing spree and while they're at it stop with the mechanics that ridiculously favor ranged and fights where you cant live without some classes (priest/lock on council).
    If you remember the very first version of KSpree they planned for mop, it worked pretty much like the proc from the fangs of the father (and was lv90 talent, not combat baseline) ,then they reverted the change making it baseline for combat and leaving it in the crap "killme spree" form we have now...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    Sub has much lower DPS, and backstab is impossible on some fights (dorumu, tortos, to name a few).
    Standing under Tortos's right foot would allow BS and ambush use. That's not the case, assa delivers so massive damage to bats on heroic difficulty (combined with really strong single target DPS to Tortos) that it's stupid to play any other spec, unless for fun during farm.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Enhshamanlol View Post
    Backstab is ok, But killing spree needs a fix.
    In what way is it ok to have your main move gimped because of mechanics? Either they magically make rogues immune to most of the mechanics in order to facilitate the use of backstab (not going to happen) or they just remove the positional requirement (much easier).

    After all, you're punished for not being behind the boss as a melee, and the *only* reason to be in front is because of mechanics, so what would change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    Standing under Tortos's right foot would allow BS and ambush use. That's not the case, assa delivers so massive damage to bats on heroic difficulty (combined with really strong single target DPS to Tortos) that it's stupid to play any other spec, unless for fun during farm.
    A few points:
    1) I bet the camera is pretty messed up there
    2) You have to move about anyway
    3) I wouldn't expect the bats would be brought to you there

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    After all, you're punished for not being behind the boss as a melee, and the *only* reason to be in front is because of mechanics, so what would change?
    There's a great difference between:
    a) you are forced in front of the boss, you can use ALL of your melee attacks but there's a X% chance for your white and yellow attacks to be parried
    (all melee classes/spec)

    and


    b) you are forced in front of the boss and you CAN'T USE one of your most important melee attacks at all
    (sub rogue and feral druid)

    Look at this:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Megaera/2...11100000000000
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Tortos/25...10100000000000
    do you see sub rogue at the bottom at 0.00? No parses, none plays sub on megaera and tortos, how the hell can they say it's viable?? About time to admit they're failing hard with rogues especially with sub spec?

    Edit: for all who want to try subt , go and take a look at all tot parses on raidbots, u will see subt comfortably sitting at the very last places on almost every normal and hc encounter
    Last edited by D3athsting; 2013-04-05 at 01:17 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Sure, but your priority is to nuke turtles, then bats, then boss so most of the times you're running around targeting everything but the boss.
    get Monk or Dk to Kite Bats and you can totaly ignore them ( super efetive HC tactic) and melee DPS turtles? please for what? to take extra damage and just fly in air becous of turtles knockback? as melee on Tortos you just tunel vision Boss all time both Normal na HC


    If you not going be in World TOP 100 guild progres and you dont care about 5% diffrents Sub is vible specc for PvE just very few play it

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by kubuntu View Post
    get Monk or Dk to Kite Bats and you can totaly ignore them ( super efetive HC tactic) and melee DPS turtles? please for what? to take extra damage and just fly in air becous of turtles knockback? as melee on Tortos you just tunel vision Boss all time both Normal na HC


    If you not going be in World TOP 100 guild progres and you dont care about 5% diffrents Sub is vible specc for PvE just very few play it
    its more like 20%, not 5

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by kubuntu View Post
    Sub is vible specc for PvE just very few play it
    Blizz removes and changes talents coz players consider them weak/useless compared to others (see versatility removal and BoS change) but doesn't seem to care if players refuse to play a specific spec in a pve environment, there's much bias among rogues about pve subt and i have to say it's well deserved, for me playing sub pve is like trying to play tennis with a baseball bat...

  16. #16
    this is not BC anymore. all specs are viable.

    not all are optimal, though.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    not all are optimal, though.
    Too bad this almost only applies to rogues.

  18. #18
    I've always played assassin and my other rogue buddy always played sub through thick and thin. Gotta feel bad for him though, sub is way harder to play and has lower dps given equal gear. Then throw in the added positional requirements.... yeah I don't know how he does it. For me though, the whole poison thing just always appealed to me and back in BC when everyone was shadowstep spec I liked doing massive nature damage to warriors with envenom after years of being brutalized by them in vanilla.
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremity View Post
    I like turtles. I would like turtle-based tier sets. I would like a turtle shell helmet, and perhaps a cheeseburger backpack and a chestpiece that simply places a red gemstone on my bellybutton.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    There's a great difference between:
    Snip
    That was kind of my point, I'm saying they should remove the positional requirement as any naab should know where to position himself where possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    this is not BC anymore. all specs are viable.

    not all are optimal, though.
    Viable is pretty subjective. As a DPS we're brought to DPS, so where do you draw the line of viability? Can they enter the raid and do any DPS? Can they do more than X dps? Can they beat more than X classes?

    Most groups bring a blend of the highest dps/utility classes and seeing as sub doesn't provide any extra utility and sits neatly on the bottom of the barrel, how can it be coined as "viable"

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    1) I bet the camera is pretty messed up there
    2) You have to move about anyway
    3) I wouldn't expect the bats would be brought to you there
    1) Have no problems with camera there.
    2) Sometimes, don't need to renew shield (elusivness ftw - on last kill my damage done to humming crystal was something like 5000-6000)
    3) Our DK kiter brings bats to melee camp (kiting path is a big circle around the room anyway)

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