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  1. #1

    Ideas for why the game is so unbalanced. Don't be rude.

    I don't think many of you are looking at the "Big Picture."

    I'm not here to hate on Blizzard or anything but look at it this way. The game is dumbed down for the casual players, correct? For the players that only play once or twice a week for a few hours. (Not that there is anything wrong with this.) Why? So Blizzard can make more money off with a wider market range. So this creates a problem with the different gear players will get at end game. LFR creates one tier, normal instances the second and heroic versions the third. This means the scaling will naturally be way too high when it comes to later gear (for progression to exist you must need better gear in order to down a boss before the enrage timer.) So since there is a HUGE difference in the item level of gear with PvE there must be the same with PvP.

    Three tiers: Honor gear, conquest gear and Elite conquest (I know there isnt elite for 5.2 but hear me out). They need this so there is some sort of barrier between the hardcore players and the casual players. (For their market; nobody who plays this game frequently would play if you could only get regular honor gear. If you are 2.2k and put a lot of time into this game you don't want the same as someone who puts in 2 hours a week).

    Due to scaling in MoP everyone's damage is high, their healing is high and their health pools are high. Why? You need a large difference between the last expansion otherwise players wouldn't bother doing anything to attain the new gear (and this leaves a chance that you will get bored, unsubscribe and Blizzard would lose money). If you could do MoP raids/pvp with Cataclysm gear then whats the point to attaining new gear? (besides looks obviously).

    Now take into account that Blizzard wants to balance this game around RBGS. This makes sense because Blizzard simply wants players to have to work together in a larger group that is (overall) easier to balance. This also gives a reason for letting their developers get a little lazy with pvp. Simply scale class damage for pve and in RBGS it won't matter as much. So now you're stuck with players who have ridiculous damage, have a high amount of life and insane healing in a game where there is very little actual balancing to any sort of skillful play. Making it more casual (After all, who doesn't like to see large numbers?) and overall "easier" for the players and on the developers since they won't have to worry too much about players complaining.

    Basically, Blizzard is just being very lazy and very greedy. Catering to a larger crowd which will bring them more money. There you have it, my theory on why PvP is no where near as good as it could be.


    Now, lets talk about ways to improve the PvP.

    1. Take away certain abilities in Arena only. Whether that is spec specific or overall for the class, who knows.
    2. Make it so PvP gear is very similar to PvE gear and give players buffs/debuffs for when they enter arenas.

    Thank you for reading the post and please be kind!

    EDIT: Sorry if my thoughts feel scattered, it's 5am here and they certainly are.

  2. #2
    Many abilites is already taken away from arena/rbg like

    *Lay on Hands
    *Combat res
    *Hero/berserk
    *Life swap for Spriest in 5.3
    *Army of the Dead

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Hjelpen View Post
    Many abilites is already taken away from arena/rbg like

    *Lay on Hands
    *Combat res
    *Hero/berserk
    *Life swap for Spriest in 5.3
    *Army of the Dead
    The problem is they are not consistent in this.
    Biggest example is Stampede being allowed in arena while Army of the dead is not, and they both act the same (arguably Stampede is far more powerful)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    The problem is they are not consistent in this.
    Biggest example is Stampede being allowed in arena while Army of the dead is not, and they both act the same (arguably Stampede is far more powerful)
    Being because Hunter's needed another DPS cooldown, DK's did not? Different classes are different, the abilities are nothing alike.

  5. #5
    The Lightbringer Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quarterpinte View Post
    I don't think many of you are looking at the "Big Picture."

    I'm not here to hate on Blizzard or anything but look at it this way.
    You say you dont want folks to be rude, but you OPEN with this.

    1. Accusing Blizzard of being lazy is truthfully dishonest.
    2. I'll be polite, but this post looks like tears, thats polite, but its the truth.

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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Being because Hunter's needed another DPS cooldown, DK's did not? Different classes are different, the abilities are nothing alike.
    Different in that the DK one is worse as it can be interrupted and the CD is twice as long.

    Thats where differences end, as both summon a load of temporary pets to nuke your target.

  7. #7
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    One of your earliest suppositions is false. Blizzard doesn't balance PvP around casual players, they actually try to balance it differently at different skill levels - which is a very hard thing to do (and clearly, they don't have it right right now). PvP is clearly messed up right now, but to understand their thinking - look at how they do PvE balance.

    LFR = If you have a pulse, and that pulse successfully pushes oxygen to your brain, and your brain refrains from having a stroke for at least the next 5 minutes - you receive loot!

    Normal = If the playerbase is a bell curve, they want the overwhelming majority of the playerbase to fall within this range right now - if you only raid 1-3 nights a week, and you aren't either a brainless zombie or a video game savant - this is where Blizzard wants to balance you around.

    Heroic = If you want to play PvE raids 4-7 nights a week, you want to spend your free time farming mats for flasks and double potions and 300 stat food, or doing class simulations, or scouring forums for how other guilds are doing it - this is where Blizzard wants to balance you around. The fights are brutal, you will die hundreds of times before your guild pulls many of them off, and you will balance your real life around your raid schedule.

    Do you see how they balanced the same fight three times to cater to three different target audiences? Some people just want to show up and get loot - they dont want to know every mechanic or have their worth as a human being measured in their DPS: LFR is fun for them, they get to fight dragons and get epics. Some people want to know that what they did few people in the world have done, that they are on the bleeding edge, they want something they give their all toward - every waking thought, and sometimes their dreams - and succeed only after they have offered up a pound of their own flesh in sacrifice: Heroic Raids are their idea of fun. Some people want a challenge when they log on, but want most of their nights off - they want to hurt, and then ultimately progress, but they would quit (boredom) if you just handed them loot: that's what Normals are for.

    Do you see what Blizzard tries to do there? This is their third try / tier at it - and I think they are confident it's the way of the future, because they are emphasizing it more and more each time.

    I think they are trying to seek the same multi-tiered balance in PvP now. They want casual PvP'rs to be able to log in, queue up for a battleground - ride around on unicorns, shoot some magical spells off, /dance party at Blacksmith, listen to some music - and have a good time.

    They want the more competitive players to be able to queue up for rateds or arenas, give winning an honest try, communicate with their team, lose some, win some - and feel like they might not have done as well as they hoped - but think they got better, or at least know more than when they started.

    They want top end players to be able to scrutinize their composition and how to respond to every opponent composition they are likely to face, to study the tricks and quirks of their classes and their opponent classes, to achieve true mastery of their classes capabilities - and to do it all again tomorrow.

    I think they *want* that to be the case (it isn't, yet), I think they want a PvP world where balance at all levels is relatively equal - but balancing PvP is going to prove a lot harder than PvE. PvE'rs mostly tell you what they are honestly, people who want LFR wouldn't queue up for Heroics or Normals if they could (they can by joining a normal or heroic raid group, and they don't do that), Heroic raiders don't look to LFR as a source of worthy challenge (except if you mean "21 people will die on the first Maze phase of Durumu, and 4 heroic raiders will proceed to 4-man the 25 man encounter").

    PvP'rs don't self-segregrate in the same way, or at least, there aren't the right tools of difficulty yet for them to sort themselves out like that. The problem with throwing all PvP'rs in the same pond (as they are now) is skill curves and skill caps - two noobs can fight one another and feel balanced, two competitive players can play the same classes at a higher level and demonstrate a massive imbalance between their classes, two pros can play the same classes again - and feel the fight could go either way.

    Who amongst them is wrong? None of them, they are all right. Sometimes, the class is honestly to blame - ie. 5.2 Shadow utility IS too high right now (but they are nerfing it in the wrong way) - but a lot of the time, the problem isn't so much the class as it is the way it is being wielded. This expansion with its weird new talent trees messed up balance pretty bad, working out those kinks takes time - and Blizzard moves at a snails pace: and it's infuriating that we all know the problems months before they fix them.

    Two solutions really stand out as how to balance PvP, (1) wait for the slow passage of time, and eventually Blizzard will reach a new balance - and then launch a new expansion that totally ruins it again, or (2) somehow make Blizzard respond with buffs/nerfs faster - they do them - they just don't do them fast enough. Other MMO's release new pvp buffs/nerfs every week or two, sometimes they overbuff - sometimes they overnerf - but if you wait a week they will probably have it fixed: until the players find a new imbalance/bug/comp synergy to exploit. I don't think any competitive PvP video game has ever achieved true balance, but some have come really close - and the ones that do are the ones that respond quickly.

    I think the Blizzard is trying to achieve balance at all skill levels simultaneously, I hope they have something big coming to make that work - because it won't match the PvE model - but if it fails - the best method to achieving balance is to respond to imbalances quickly: not wait 3-4 months for the season to end.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-04-10 at 10:26 AM.
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  8. #8
    The biggest problem is and always will be developers not balancing the game around 1 on 1 combat. Don't say it isn't possible as fighter games etc has been doing this since the 80's.

    Every class should have tools to handle melee, ranged, tank and healer opponents. Certain abilities or skills that directly counter the other archetypes. The game should be a game of countering the other guys moves and outmaneuvering him. Forcing him to use his best counters before you use yours.

    For example. A Ranged DPS is fighting a healer. He uses his anti healer power move that shuts down healing by a great amount. The healer counters by using his DPS super move that turns all his heals in to offensive spells (Think DnD Cleric spell Harm). Just a quick example. In a group setting if the healer survives the attack he can then switch back to healing and turn the tide of battle. If he fails the team is in a bad spot.

    Melee DPS could have a tank destroyer ability that bypasses most tank defenses and the tank could have an ability that turn his defenses in to offense.

    Yes, many classes will end up with mirror abilities, like an iceblock type spell etc but that is the price you pay for great balance.

  9. #9
    It is becoming increasingly harder to balance PVP damage without affecting PVE. Only solution I see out of this current mess is for Blizzard to cold-bloodedly put percentage-based buffs or debuffs to different classes and specs while they engage in combat with enemy players.

    Example:
    ''BM Hunters do -10% less damage to player targets''
    ''Enhance Shamans do 10% more damage to player targets'' Not sure if Enhance really needs a damage buff but just used it as an example since they are always at the bottom of the barrel.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by broods View Post
    The biggest problem is and always will be developers not balancing the game around 1 on 1 combat. Don't say it isn't possible as fighter games etc has been doing this since the 80's.
    and you don't think that maybe there's a huge chasm of difference between an MMO with thousands of different combinations of skills and gear and a fighting game?
    "The fact that you don't get it or like it is fine. The fact that you wanna ruin it for everyone else - that's why you're a cocksucker." - Bill Hicks
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    The playerbase has been desiring this for years and when it's finally here, everyone wants to grab a pitchfork. Ridiculous. This community is disgustingly toxic.

  11. #11
    What I would like to see:

    Development creates 3 new specs. A healer spec, a caster spec, and a melee spec.

    Each class gets 1 - 3 of these specs (in addition to the specs they already have, these would be JUST for pvp) (warlocks get one, shamans get all three, paladins get two, priests get 2, etc.)

    Each of these specs are the same, the abilities they grant are the same, albeit cosmetically different. (Hunters get the caster DPS spec, but the abilities are all cosmetically hunter appropriate).

    Now, dev will have a much easier time balancing 3 specs against each other than 34.

    Does it homogenize things? Sure. Is homogenization bad in a competitive, player vs. player setting? I don't think so.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-10 at 05:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by brolother View Post
    What I would like to see:

    Development creates 3 new specs. A healer spec, a caster spec, and a melee spec.

    Each class gets 1 - 3 of these specs (warlocks get one, shamans get all three, paladins get two, priests get 2, etc.)

    Each of these specs are the same, the abilities they grant are the same, albeit cosmetically different. (Hunters get the caster DPS spec, but the abilities are all cosmetically hunter appropriate).

    Now, dev will have a much easier time balancing 3 specs against each other than 34.

    Does it homogenize things? Sure. Is homogenization bad in a competitive, player vs. player setting? I don't think so.
    Could even take it a step further and do a 4th spec, "Pet dps" for hunters, warlocks, and mages (Who would then all gain 2 specs, "ranged dps" [no pet] and "pet dps"

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-10 at 05:54 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by brolother View Post
    What I would like to see:

    Development creates 3 new specs. A healer spec, a caster spec, and a melee spec.

    Each class gets 1 - 3 of these specs (warlocks get one, shamans get all three, paladins get two, priests get 2, etc.)

    Each of these specs are the same, the abilities they grant are the same, albeit cosmetically different. (Hunters get the caster DPS spec, but the abilities are all cosmetically hunter appropriate).

    Now, dev will have a much easier time balancing 3 specs against each other than 34.

    Does it homogenize things? Sure. Is homogenization bad in a competitive, player vs. player setting? I don't think so.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-10 at 05:51 AM ----------



    Could even take it a step further and do a 4th spec, "Pet dps" for hunters, warlocks, and mages (Who would then all gain 2 specs, "ranged dps" [no pet] and "pet dps"
    5th spec. DW Melee and 2h Melee.

    Balancing 5 specs would be MUCH easier than 34.

    Warrior - Prot, Arms, Fury, Dw PvP, 2h PvP
    DK - Blood, Frost, Unholy, Dw PvP, 2h PvP
    Rogue - Ass, Combat, Sub, Dw PvP
    Warlock - Afflic, Demo, Destro, Ranged PvP, Pet PvP
    Priest - Holy, Dics, Shadow, Ranged PvP
    Shaman - Enhance, Resto, Ele, Ranged PvP, DW PvP
    etc. etc.
    Last edited by brolother; 2013-04-10 at 11:04 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooboy View Post
    and you don't think that maybe there's a huge chasm of difference between an MMO with thousands of different combinations of skills and gear and a fighting game?
    WoW has 34 different specs, most fighting games have as many heroes all perfectly balanced against each other.
    Gear can easily be balanced and level differences doesn't matter.

    It's just a huge cop out from the developers saying it can't be done. You honestly think it's not possible?

  13. #13
    I think the game is balanced around mages! They're on top of the food chain both in pve and pvp for EXPANSIONS. Nerfs won't go through or if so, they'll be compensated with buffs in a hotfix.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by broods View Post
    WoW has 34 different specs, most fighting games have as many heroes all perfectly balanced against each other.
    Gear can easily be balanced and level differences doesn't matter.

    It's just a huge cop out from the developers saying it can't be done. You honestly think it's not possible?
    i agree- if blizz separated pvp and pve the game would be alot better. ability hits for this amount in pve and for this amount in pvp.it can be adjusted when ever without effecting the other.also blizz needs to go back to pvp specs arms =pvp fury =pve.no more of this every spec viable crap.if blizz did these two things wow pvp you be far far better off.

  15. #15
    There are sports leagues for a reason in real life. If more people PvP'd, Blizzard could queue players of similar gear and skill together. However, with the small number of people that PvP, everyone gets dumped into the same pool resulting in a horribly imbalanced situation that only serves the top 10% of PvPers and prevents other people from even wanting to waste the time.

    Blaming Blizzard for not balancing 34 specs and comparing that to a fighting game is unreasonable IMO. Fighting games don't have:
    - Different player levels
    - Gear and min/max'ing of it
    - A player selected talent tree
    - Abilities with cooldowns that scale differently based on gear, level, and average time to kill
    - Synergy of abilities between different classes
    - Offensive and defensive cooldowns
    - CC

    I think it's a miracle the game is as balance as it is. I wouldn't be surprised at all if in the future gear is ultimately normalized in PvP and if PvP rewards became PvE gear (e.g. Valor points, etc).

  16. #16
    Good post Yvaelle, actually hit the nail on the head with a lot of PvP Problems.

    I'd just like to note, for this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Quarterpinte View Post
    2. Make it so PvP gear is very similar to PvE gear and give players buffs/debuffs for when they enter arenas.
    It wouldn't work. PvP and PvE gear can never be the same all while PvP gear is earnt via a reliable source and PvE gear is earnt via RNG, and while PvP and PvE gear can both be earned at the same time (Forcing PvErs and PvPers to do both PvP and PvE for their weekly gear).

    One solution could be to merge Conquest and Valor, remove 'drops' from bosses, and have all gear bought via a global currency. But again, Arena would be a reliable way to earn this currency, where some PvErs might struggle to kill bosses. If they make it so LFR drops valor, then heroic raiders would be upset that they were in the same gear as people who do LFR -- and then they have to add tiers and we get back to the exact same problem we have now.

    Item level being capped in instanced PvP is the best solution PvPers could've wished for. It means PvE can go on doing whatever it wants with iLevels, while PvP remains a constant (with PvP gear always being best).

  17. #17
    Removing gear barrier from pvp is good, and if you don't agree with it, it just means that you like to kill low gear players for your ego. It makes for more competitive environment.

    Not sure what do you mean by dumbed down, not going to be offensive, but you should really think about what it means. Just because you don't have to farm ages for stuff, and that you don't have to buy reagents for spells, doesn't make it any less hardcore in my opinion, it just makes players less dependant on time spent in game, which it should be. Just because you are player with hours and hours on your hands, doesnt mean that all should be forced to play that much, or that they shouldnt be able to compete at highest level. When the time to gear up in pvp takes less time, gear differences don't decide all games, but rather skill, not time spent in game, and it also won't discourage new players getting into pvp only to get owned in few seconds everytime they meet someone geared.

    If you think the game is unbalanced now, you should go play to "golden times of wow" when the game was balanced just around PMR arena games.

  18. #18
    Bloodsail Admiral rashen's Avatar
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    - to much CC
    - cooldown stacking needs to go and burst damage needs nerfs.
    - Instant CC from casters needs to go
    - Melee classes with heavy burst should have little control abilities ( Note i said little, they should have some )
    - Melee classes with high control should not have heavy burst
    - casters need to shifted into casting again
    There's a lot more in each individual class but thats the rough basis of what i think should happen.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by evokanu View Post
    - to much CC
    - cooldown stacking needs to go and burst damage needs nerfs.
    - Instant CC from casters needs to go
    - Melee classes with heavy burst should have little control abilities ( Note i said little, they should have some )
    - Melee classes with high control should not have heavy burst
    - casters need to shifted into casting again
    There's a lot more in each individual class but thats the rough basis of what i think should happen.
    i would add in a longer cd to interrupts and lock outs, every 8-10 secs is crap. instants were a way to help against this, but it went way too far. if you make casters casting again, then you need far less spell lockouts. or game is umba, again.

  20. #20
    I am Murloc! Arrashi's Avatar
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    In my opinion huge part of pvp inbalance is due new talent system. Many of talents have much bigger impact in pvp then they have in pve.
    Take an example from murder of crows. In pve it basically "you deal X dmg over time" and you will want to use it whenever off CD while paying attention to its execution gimmick. Its basically boring ability that forces us to add 1 more keybind and press it every 2 minutes. In pvp however it looks diffrent. Its undispellable dot that adds quite a bit to hunter's burst. If you combine it with stampede wchich is in my opinion worst ability ever added to game (and this comes from hunter) you quickly get snowball effect. Game simply is bloated with Cd's like that and since they are in pretty short Cooldown mayority of people use them before they even think. Huge problem with balancing pvp (especially in mop) is that it would require changes on very core level of gameplay. In my opinion entire system of crowd controll need mayor overhaul to be remade thinking mainly about pvp ( since lets face it last time we used CC in pve was like what ? in tbc, maybe wotlk).

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