Next expansion can't be the Burning Legion

[LilSaihah]

No, the Titans are bound to purge relentless destruction that undermines their creation.

If you had a working brain that listened to the dialogue throughout Ulduar and the Algalon enounter, you'd know this.

Be a fat man on the internet some more. It's attractive.

There's some evidence to imply that the Titans are actively interested in doing that, like the Clockwork Gnomes in Borean Tundra. We only managed to convince Algalon that the planet wasn't worth vaporizing by beating the snot out of him, which makes me wonder how exactly Sargeras became corrupted.

[Deleted]

We only managed to convince Algalon that the planet wasn't worth vaporizing by beating the snot out of him, which makes me wonder how exactly Sargeras became corrupted.

Exactly, sounds more to me that its both morally wrong (make life, let it evolve and then purge it whenever they dislike the outcome) and more corrupt than Sargeras.

[wariofan1]

thats not a very valid comparison... KJ is just a powerful demon, sargeras is a titan. those are nowhere close to the same this nor is KJ anywhere at all close to as powerful as sargeras. not to mention we couldnt even kill KJ we could only send him back through the sunwell.

The only reason I mentioned KJ is because he's the only other Legion baddie that has potential to be an expansion villain other than Sargeras. I still believe that Sargeras will be the next expansion's villain.

Why are people like wariofan1 ignoring that the Titans/Pantheons wanted to obliterate entire Azeroth and that we had to use force against a messenger to avoid him sending a message that all the Titans would agree upon?

"Old Gods are evil cause they want to kill all living"

Yeah well the Titans are evil because they don't actually give a crap about what's on Azeroth, slightest curse and they'll get rid of the planet and restart it.

The Titans aren't evil as such, they wanted to obliterate Azeroth because he amount of Old God infection on the planet had gotten out of hand, and since the Titans care for nothing but order in the universe it's obvious why Algalon didn't seem to like our little chaotic planet. On the other hand, we also see Lei Shen as evil, and that's just about the same damn thing he's trying to do.

[Xilurm]

There's some evidence to imply that the Titans are actively interested in doing that, like the Clockwork Gnomes in Borean Tundra. We only managed to convince Algalon that the planet wasn't worth vaporizing by beating the snot out of him, which makes me wonder how exactly Sargeras became corrupted.

Both you and Palmolive say this....

You do realize we didn't actually scratch him right? He was conviced because we fought without giving up like mindless puppets. Because we wanted to live. We didn't even touch him.

[Deleted]

The Titans aren't evil as such, they wanted to obliterate Azeroth because he amount of Old God infection on the planet had gotten out of hand, and since the Titans care for nothing but order in the universe it's obvious why Algalon didn't seem to like our little chaotic planet. On the other hand, we also see Lei Shen as evil, and that's just about the same damn thing he's trying to do.

But even if the Titans created Azeroth it's morally wrong from an inhabitant's point of view to just come and destroy everything everyone built up for so long.

And the inhabitants have proven that two Old Gods could be dealt with, however Blizzard still don't wanna talk about (During Blizzcon at least) what happens when we defeat all Old Gods in Azeroth (rumoured that Azeroth will 3xpl0d3)

[LilSaihah]

Both you and Palmolive say this....

You do realize we didn't actually scratch him right? He was conviced because we fought without giving up like mindless puppets. Because we wanted to live. We didn't even touch him.

That raises the question of why he still sends the re-origination signal after wiping your raid. Did we not have enough fighting spirit or something? I think fighting to the death definitely quantifies "not giving up".

The Titans aren't evil as such, they wanted to obliterate Azeroth because he amount of Old God infection on the planet had gotten out of hand, and since the Titans care for nothing but order in the universe it's obvious why Algalon didn't seem to like our little chaotic planet. On the other hand, we also see Lei Shen as evil, and that's just about the same damn thing he's trying to do.

These conflicting goals and moralities between inimical forms of life are part of what drive morality in Warcraft. Can you firmly, 100% say that the Forsaken using Val'kyr is evil? It's their only means of procreation; if they stopped doing it, they'd die out.

[Xilurm]

That raises the question of why he still sends the re-origination signal after wiping your raid. Did we not have enough fighting spirit or something? I think fighting to the death definitely quantifies "not giving up".

.....

Do you even know the difference between game mechanics and story? Do you really think that when you fight against a mob or a boss you actually slash through their skin until they die from pain? No. Every mob parries and dodges our attacks until we land the killing blow which actually hits him and kills him.

Same thing with wiping. We don't actually wipe in the raid from the story pov because it's impossible. Him sending the re-origination signal is just to show what happens if we fail, meaning we ran towards him and we couldn't parry his attack which means he killed us. It's way better than him derping around after he kills us.

[wariofan1]

But even if the Titans created Azeroth it's morally wrong from an inhabitant's point of view to just come and destroy everything everyone built up for so long.

And the inhabitants have proven that two Old Gods could be dealt with, however Blizzard still don't wanna talk about (During Blizzcon at least) what happens when we defeat all Old Gods in Azeroth (rumoured that Azeroth will 3xpl0d3)

Yes, it's morally wrong, but as we've seen twice now (if we count Ra-Den too) they do have a sense of mercy too. They're letting us prove that we can fix the mess that is Azeroth. Our relation to the titans is very much based around that we have the same enemies, nothing more than that.

These conflicting goals and moralities between inimical forms of life are part of what drive morality in Warcraft. Can you firmly, 100% say that the Forsaken using Val'kyr is evil? It's their only means of procreation; if they stopped doing it, they'd die out.

I never talked about the Forsaken or the Val'kyr, but since we're on the subject I'll just say that it isn't evil in itself, it's more the fact of how Sylvanas uses it. She's pretending to be a god, much like the Lich King, a giver and taker of life, and given that Sylvanas is pretty shady it's worth at least keeping an eye on her.

[LilSaihah]

Do you even know the difference between game mechanics and story? Do you really think that when you fight against a mob or a boss you actually slash through their skin until they die from pain? No. Every mob parries and dodges our attacks until we land the killing blow which actually hits him and kills him.

Same thing with wiping. We don't actually wipe in the raid from the story pov because it's impossible. Him sending the re-origination signal is just to show what happens if we fail, meaning we ran towards him and we couldn't parry his attack which means he killed us. It's way better than him derping around after he kills us.

I'm aware of the difference between game mechanics and story, yes, and I'm aware that the raid wiping is a divergent path from the real storyline, but divergent paths still have to be internally consistent with the character's goals, motivations and logic. Just because it's an alternate interpretation of the storyline, doesn't mean that characters can just put on their silly hats and go off the deep end. Divergent story paths/alternate histories are used very frequently throughout narratives, Warcraft included, to display aspects of characters that we might not otherwise know about.

It's not what happened, but if Algalon did wipe the raid that faced him, would he still send the re-origination signal? That's what actually wiping for the hour you have displays us.

I never talked about the Forsaken or the Val'kyr, but since we're on the subject I'll just say that it isn't evil in itself, it's more the fact of how Sylvanas uses it. She's pretending to be a god, much like the Lich King, a giver and taker of life, and given that Sylvanas is pretty shady it's worth at least keeping an eye on her.

Granted, Sylvanas is a twat. I brought it up because the Titans are similar to the Forsaken in a way; fundamental aspects of their morality are very different to ours. We don't know why Titans stem towards their absolute ordering of the universe, but judging by their actions, we can say that they can't coexist with mortals; something has to give, whether it's Algalon changing his mind and thinking that mortals are worth placing on a higher pedestal than the Titans' edict, or mortals being absolutely wiped out. With the Forsaken, we know why they're doing what they're doing; because if they don't give themselves power through numbers, the Alliance will wipe them out, or simple wear and tear will drive them extinct.

[LeginNoslen]

I agree. I mean, where do you go from there?

[Frozen Death Knight]

If the players wipe against Algalon it simply means that we did not have enough will or strength to fight for our lives. Defeating Algalon does not actually kill him, so it is obvious that he pretty much allowed us to test ourselves. This is the same deal with the Lich King testing us players if we were worthy of being his most powerful army, so it is still consistent regardless of how you look at it.

[Deleted]

Yes, it's morally wrong, but as we've seen twice now (if we count Ra-Den too) they do have a sense of mercy too. They're letting us prove that we can fix the mess that is Azeroth. Our relation to the titans is very much based around that we have the same enemies, nothing more than that.

An in-real-life serial killer can also have a sense of mercy when he's beaten up till at the brink of death. Or am I ahead myself?

[Zaelsino]

That's arguably why killing/dismantling Sarg sooner rather than later is good for the game's longevity. If it's left too late, players will simply write it off as the last page in Warcraft history; if he's taken down sooner, then bigger threats can mingle with the likes of Azshara and the old gods/titans.

[Verdugo]

I never talked about the Forsaken or the Val'kyr, but since we're on the subject I'll just say that it isn't evil in itself, it's more the fact of how Sylvanas uses it. She's pretending to be a god, much like the Lich King, a giver and taker of life, and given that Sylvanas is pretty shady it's worth at least keeping an eye on her.

Does that make her any different from any other religion, in warcraft or otherwise?

[LilSaihah]

If the players wipe against Algalon it simply means that we did not have enough will or strength to fight for our lives. Defeating Algalon does not actually kill him, so it is obvious that he pretty much allowed us to test ourselves. This is the same deal with the Lich King testing us players if we were worthy of being his most powerful army, so it is still consistent regardless of how you look at it.

I don't think his goal is testing corrupted Titan constructs for the value of any mutations; he's just there to check if it's corrupted, and if it is, he devises a means to correct the corruption; which could include turning them back into robots, like in BT, or reorigination. He hadn't even considered that we might be able to fight for so long and so fervently; he thinks mortals are inherently without value. His voice changing from the dull monotone to outrage and remorse at his own actions is how this is conveyed. If he went into the fight aware that he was testing for mutation viability, why would his voice break like that, why would he go on a tirade?

[Frozen Death Knight]

That's arguably why killing/dismantling Sarg sooner rather than later is good for the game's longevity. If it's left too late, players will simply write it off as the last page in Warcraft history; if he's taken down sooner, then bigger threats can mingle with the likes of Azshara and the old gods/titans.

Either or, if a Burning Legion expansion is next, Sargeras will be a part of it in one way, shape, or form. WotLK and the Wrathgate questline pretty much established that the Dreadlords and Sargeras are on the move, so if an invasion is at hand, Kil'Jaeden and his Dreadlord schemers will find a way to bring back their master.

Personally, I don't expect Sargeras to be taken down in that same expansion, but it is not out of the question, at least.

[Wishblade]

Burning Legion expansion does not mean we'll fight Sargeras, plenty of potential lieutenants to beat first, the most obvious being Kil'jaeden.

So Sargeras is not going down anytime soon... Heck let's see what villains we can come up with that we've seen or heard of already.

Azshara, lurking down under.
Old Gods, and we don't even know how many there are.
Emerald Nightmare, you never know when that might stir things up again.
Infinite Dragonflight, still able to cause some trouble in various timelines.
Zandalari, still not defeated yet.
Titans, because if they're willing to purge us when a flaw shows up then they can also be bad guys.
And the Legion and Sargeras.

Not to mention the new lore Blizz can come up with, just look at the Mists... If Sargeras is indeed the final big bad then they've still got plenty to work with before we face him.

[LilSaihah]

Azshara, lurking down under.
Old Gods, and we don't even know how many there are.
Emerald Nightmare, you never know when that might stir things up again.
Infinite Dragonflight, still able to cause some trouble in various timelines.
Zandalari, still not defeated yet.
Titans, because if they're willing to purge us when a flaw shows up then they can also be bad guys.
And the Legion and Sargeras.

Didn't that whole Emerald Nightmare thing get wrapped up in Stormrage? If it's not a Legion expansion, though, putting my chips on Azshara/Zandalar/Fishyfish Old God.

[wariofan1]

An in-real-life serial killer can also have a sense of mercy when he's beaten up till at the brink of death. Or am I ahead myself?

It's not because we're beating the titans up that they're submitting. Algalon was surprised how we fought against all odds in order to defend everything we love, and Ra-Den, well, we'll see how that works, I can imagine his hostility comes from the fact that he has felt nothing but pain and agony while being entrapped by Lei Shen for eons, and since we're on Pandaria those negative feelings can be incredibly dangerous.

That's the lore explanation though, the real explanation is that it's done for gameplay's sake.

Didn't that whole Emerald Nightmare thing get wrapped up in Stormrage? If it's not a Legion expansion, though, putting my chips on Azshara/Zandalar/Fishyfish Old God.

Can't remember where, but Ysera commented that the Nightmare was crawling out again, and the Druids needed to keep the Emerald Dream in check since the Green Dragonflight lost their powers over the dreams.

[Deleted]

I don't think his goal is testing corrupted Titan constructs for the value of any mutations; he's just there to check if it's corrupted, and if it is, he devises a means to correct the corruption; which could include turning them back into robots, like in BT, or reorigination. He hadn't even considered that we might be able to fight for so long and so fervently; he thinks mortals are inherently without value. His voice changing from the dull monotone to outrage and remorse at his own actions is how this is conveyed. If he went into the fight aware that he was testing for mutation viability, why would his voice break like that, why would he go on a tirade?

100% Right.

His mission wasn't to see how the inhabitants react when he gives them the message that Azeroth will be purged. His objective was to search and deliver the message, that is all.

He didn't expect us barging in while he was conducting his research and then attacking him.

Do you remember just after his monologue in the beginning?
Do you remember what colour his NPC was?

Yellow, not red.
Yellow.

If I'm not mistaken, story-wise he didn't want to fight from the very beginning. We had to do the first hit.

That or Blizzard wanted us to prepare as perfect as possible before engaging him.