View Poll Results: I can't let GC get away with that last blue post! Did you enjoy ToC? Favorite bosses?

639. You may not vote on this poll
  • Beasts of Northend

    60 9.39%
  • Lord Jaraxxus

    92 14.40%
  • Faction Champions

    124 19.41%
  • Twin Val'kyr

    106 16.59%
  • Anub'arak

    85 13.30%
  • I loved them all!

    126 19.72%
  • ToC was lame and didn't enjoy it.

    335 52.43%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #21
    I never utterly hated ToC, but the problem was that it came and replaced Ulduar way too soon and for a way too long time. It would have worked so much better as simple filler content, nothing more.

  2. #22
    The Unstoppable Force det's Avatar
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    Aug 2008
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    21,622 any poll that is made here, ToC comes out the least liked raid. I am not saying it is - but it speaks how anecdotal evidence works.

    OP: Anyone you asked LOVED ToC
    MMO_C: Polls say ppl HATE ToC

    But: GC has access to players activity 24/7 and more feedback than we have.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ... there are lots of different types of players, with different amounts of time to play, and different tastes for the content and difficulty and time commitment they want to give to any of those pieces of content. The person that plays for an hour or so a few times a week is playing the same game as the person that plays five hours every night.....

  3. #23
    Warchief Vayjir's Avatar
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    Dec 2009
    I found it horribly boring the only thing remotly fun was Lord Jaraxxus.

  4. #24
    Old God Snowraven's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    European Union
    He's talking of the raid as a whole. The raid itself sucked. Why? Because you fought all bosses (except Anub) in same room, you had no trash and it just felt boring.
    If anything, faction champions was one of the most annoying fights out of the batch, simply because all the mobs were acting weird and not a good kind of weird, but rather they went for the weakest links at first and once the fight started it was a matter of luck depending who you got and a matter of running around like crazy. By the end of the fight no matter how good you were, a few people were dead for sure on your side.

    In terms of boss mechanics however, besides faction champions, I loved most of the other bosses.
    But overall, as a raid, it sucked. Now if the bosses were all layed in a nice good longer raid, for example only fighting first bosses in the arena, then falling down and continuing the fighting down into the tunnels of Azjol-Nerub fighting undead stuff and crusade stuff who've burrowed underneath and having even same bosses, it would have been tons better. But as it stood, ToCr just looked like a lack of effort was put into it. Because of lack of trash and same environment mostly. People don't just want boss after boss, they also want some trash, to get to said boss.

    In comparison, think of Ulduar. Excluding first boss, how much trash did you need to fight to get to each boss? Not so much, 3-4 packs for most of them. Yet it felt good fighting those packs too, it sort of extended the life of the raid.

    So, overall, ToCr as a raid was bad. Most bosses however were ok, that was not the problem of the raid. The problem was lack of work that went into it. I personally liked the twins especially and Anub'arak but as I said before, this doesn't change the fact that 5 bosses were not enough and got bored of no trash and same arena.

  5. #25
    Why ToC was so hated?
    It replaced Ulduar.. A giant epic looking raid, with 14 bosses, several different hard modes.. We got short raid with 0 trash and just 5 encounters.. There were dungeons longer than this raid in Wrath...
    It was so short that people were blasting through 4 lockouts per week burning with boredom very, very quickly.
    Limited attempts was bad for guilds that lost it because of unlucky DC etc..

    It's just like Madness of Deathwing fight.. The idea was good, but the execution was poor.. People were expecting something big, but got a short piece of boring crap instead..

    ToC would be a good, quick, filler raid. Something to do along Ulduar, not a replacement and next tier of raiding..

    Personally I kind of liked it, but at that time I wasn't full time raider, so I didn't have to do this 4x per week.. I'm sure I'd hate it much more if it was released today..
    Quote Originally Posted by Archaeon View Post
    In tbc everyone wished they were playing vanilla. In cataclysm everyone will wish they were playing wotlk.
    ^------True story!!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeafmuncher View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Where is this 2nd big major patch you speak of?
    It's on the alternative timeline.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurust View Post
    I visualized playing it in my head and it was bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathane View Post
    I mean you have all the trademarks of one childish, ignorant, irresponsible, retarded.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Auberdeen View Post
    Maybe you guys are land-locked and just mad at life in general. TROPHIES bro, gimme that TROPHY!!!!
    Yeah, that's completely it, "bro" No more trophies for you, ever...

    Quote Originally Posted by Auberdeen View Post
    and don't tell me "You face JARAXXUS! EREDAR LORD OF THE BURNING LEGION!" didn't tickle your prostate a little everytime... i mean cmon
    You are a strange little man...

  8. #28
    There was nothing wrong with the theme and the bosses in ToC. It was... well... literally everything else about the raid that made it awful.

    1) Released far too soon after Ulduar but with much better gear. Why fight through the first 6-7 bosses in Ulduar so you can progress on Firefighter or hard mode General when you can just jump to ToC and get free gear that was better?

    2) The Argent Tournament. While it made sense thematically with the overall expansion story, as a daily hub it is easily the worst daily hub to ever be introduced in a mid-expansion patch (compare to IQD, Firelands dailies, Isle of Thunder). The raid being associated with all of that cheapens the experience.

    3) No trash. As much as we find trash annoying at times, the lack of trash entirely meant that you slammed your face into one boss, killed it, then immediately were on another. There was no break, no winding down in tension. The lack of trash lead to quick clear or grueling progression, which lead to clearing as many lockouts per week as possible because the whole place could be done in an hour per lockout. Some guilds killed 10 man normal, 25 man normal, and 10 man hard mode all in the same day to get gear for 25 man ToGC.

    4) The 4 lockouts. I just covered this a bit, but that wore on people more than anything else, and was the sole ignition for the debate on whether 10 and 25 man should even have separate lockouts at all. I look back on ToC and see myself killing the same bosses 2 or 3 times a week on the same character, which was just plain irritating by the end of it.

    5) Limited attempts. Progression is not fun when that one person that wipes the whole raid from a mistake doesn't just cost you time, but also potential loot and potentially even the chance to fight bosses at all. The inability to simply throw attempts at bosses also lead to the "why not" reasoning for farming 2-3 other lockouts each week, it's not like you could spend that time on real progression anyways.

    6) Anub'arak. Not the fight itself, mind you, but everything else surrounding the fact that the fight was there. The Lich King coming in only reminded us how cheap his appearances were all expansion (to the point of cartoonish). The fact that Anub'arak was still alive reminded us of his cheap "demise" in a boring 5 man. Dropping down brought up painful reminders of the rumors of an entire Azjol-Nerub daily zone instead of the lame Tournament, and how arguably the most important part of Northrend itself was simply ignored in the expansion. Anub'arak being there in the circumstances that he was served as a painful reminder of how botched the patch cycle in WotLK was rather than an epic boss.

    Beasts, JARAXXUS, Faction Champions, Twin Valkyrs, and Anub'arak were all great boss fights, but they had by far the worst surroundings of any tier in the game. It's not that ToC itself was bad, it was that the raiding tier as a whole was awful from a larger perspective.

  9. #29
    ToC at the time felt like content that the Devs obviously threw in on short notice, when they realized more time was needed to work on ICC. It also had a boring/repetition feel to it that quickly became apparent. On top of that, the Hunter T9 was very ugly, I didn't enjoy wearing it and transmog wasn't in the game yet, so I was stuck with it for a while.
    I actually thought Faction Champions was the most interesting encounter in the place. Guilds with skilled PvPers were able to figure it out a lot faster than carebear guilds.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Auberdeen View Post
    After reading the new blue notes, I ran across this and it just pissed me off to be honest:
    -ToC was awesome because it stood on the integrity of it's encounter design. It was a minimalist approach that worked.
    I thought the encounters were well crafted. Overall the raid was not popular though. New art and architecture are important
    -Faction Champs was still one of the coolest encounters I've ever done though.
    I liked it personally, but it was less popular with players not used to dealing with no aggro, interrupts, CC and the like.
    GC, may I ask where you are getting your data from? I and practically every person I have ever spoken with, whether it be in-game, IRL friends, forums etc LOVED ToC, especially ToGC! The idea of being in a coliseum with your Faction Leader staring down upon you to engage in a no-trash, head on bout is, tbh, flipping awesome! Than to be able to do hard modes? WHAT?! dude. shit was baller status.
    Nearly everyone I ever see speak of ToC has shown nothing but near-universal hatred towards the raid instance. The dictionary-definition of filler content.

    If I am not mistaken, the idea of the Brawlers Guild is somewhat of a 1man variation(with no end boss of course) of ToC, is it not? Yes, Brawlers Guild provides random mobs, but the foundation is very similar.
    Except... it's not raid content.

    ToC brought out the inner badass in you, like watching Maximus Decimus Meridius in Gladiator, Achilles slay Hector in Troy, and similar to the feeling late in FF7 when you can do that gladiator style battling to see how far you can go for rewards.
    Yeah, no.

    So, community, did you like ToC, did you not like it? Who was your favorite boss? I don't usually post threads about pointing a finger at GC whom I highly respect, but I couldn't let that post go, it made me pound my desk and my goldfish got scared : /
    You are in a very small minority. While some people might have liked a boss or two's mechanics, it's pretty much agreed by most that it was a terrible, terrible raid tier.

    Maybe if they had released it as side-content like Ruby Sanctum, and not dedicated an ENTIRE RAID tier to it and ONLY it, it might not have been so bad.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-07 at 08:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    6) Anub'arak. Not the fight itself, mind you, but everything else surrounding the fact that the fight was there. The Lich King coming in only reminded us how cheap his appearances were all expansion (to the point of cartoonish). The fact that Anub'arak was still alive reminded us of his cheap "demise" in a boring 5 man. Dropping down brought up painful reminders of the rumors of an entire Azjol-Nerub daily zone instead of the lame Tournament, and how arguably the most important part of Northrend itself was simply ignored in the expansion. Anub'arak being there in the circumstances that he was served as a painful reminder of how botched the patch cycle in WotLK was rather than an epic boss.
    Dude, a daily zone? I remember rumors of Azjol-Nerub being an entire questing zone with a potential full-scale raid encounter.

    THAT would have been a worthy Tier 9.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    I loved the raid, but it had its problems:
    1. Only 'one room'
    2. Lack of trash.
    3. 10, 10hc, 25, 25hc << Some people were doing it 4 times a week, I only did it 3 times a week.

    Point 1 and 2 wouldn't be that much of a problem if I wasn't doing it 3 times a week.

    But you are right about one thing: People are bitching way too much compared to how the raid was.
    It does not deserve the amount of QQ that people are giving in this thread.
    Everything on your list is a positive to me, I guess opinions are opinions. Let's not forget ToC was supposed to be a filler raid between Ulduar and Icecrown Citadel. It seems "bad" because it was always compared to Ulduar, pretty much anything is "meh" when compared to Ulduar. However, it did its job quite well I must say.

    On a separate note, those people QQing on forums about ToC are most likely the vocal minority. A lot of my guildmates then - and now - didn't dislike ToC but have generally no interest in posting on forums about how much they didn't dislike it. People only post about negative stuff so I'm not surprised it received its fair share of hatred.

    To be blunt, no trash in a raid was a gift from the devs to us. I still loathe ToT trash. Definitely in the top 3 worst trash ever, right after Mount Hyjal and Black Temple. (I know Vanilla WoW also had some terrible trash but I wasn't playing back then to confirm.)
    Last edited by Azlarn; 2013-04-07 at 08:22 PM.

  12. #32
    The Unstoppable Force Resentful's Avatar
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    Fucking awful raid is all I'm going to say.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Um. I hated ToC and ToGC with a burning passion, and I still hate it to this day. That instance was trash.

    It probably didn't help that I did it an average of 10+ times a week.
    Same though I didn't run it nearly as often as you claimed to have, I may have ran it on average twice a week(always on normal mode, didn't clear heroic till after ICC was released). I didn't mind the boss fights in the raid so much as I hated the overall aesthetics of the raid, I get that it was based on an arena/coliseum but they could have done something with it.

  14. #34
    I loved ToC mainly because I freaking hate trash, especially when the amount of it gets out of hand like Blizzard just loves to do. I thought the fights were interesting, especially faction champs. The weapons looked cool, but the Tier was meh.

    I think the biggest issue with it wasn't the actual raid, but all the other crap along with it. They pushed it out too fast and didn't give us enough time Ulduar, which meant ICC came out sooner, which meant we had that big gap at the end of the expansion. I think it would of been much better received if not for that reason alone.

    I will also say that after the challenge that was Ulduar, it was really undertuned, which also led to some of the issues as well.

  15. #35
    I don't know what you were looking at when ToC was current, but damn near everyone hated it at the time. It was a pointless, boring, garbage filler raid.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Veyne View Post
    Maybe if they had released it as side-content like Ruby Sanctum, and not dedicated an ENTIRE RAID tier to it and ONLY it, it might not have been so bad.
    So you would be fine if ToC didn't contain any tiers? What's the difference? We now are 1 number higher in tier numbers than what you suggest, oh no! It still was a filler raid, and should be considered one.

  17. #37
    Stood in the Fire Lakrin's Avatar
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    Indianapolis, Indiana
    The bosses were fun.

    As a tier, however, it was miserable. 5 bosses for several months? Lame gear. Boring surrounding.

  18. #38
    It wasn't a bad raid, I actually enjoyed it. Watching pugs get destroyed on the champs and / or twins was stellar. Watching folks rage if someone didn't dodge on Icehowl never ever got old.

    Folks bitch that they hate trash, are given a raid with no trash, and bitch about that too.

    "Look around you. We're all liars here, and every one of us is better than you" - PB

  19. #39
    Over 9000! Destil's Avatar
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    I'm 99% certain you're exaggerating. I haven't met a single person who truly enjoyed ToC.

    As someone above me said, the bosses were interesting, but Anub Arak was the only "challenge".

    As a tier, it was horrendous.
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  20. #40
    The Insane peggleftw's Avatar
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    i liked the ToC raid, but not as the main raid of the tier. would be nice as a side raid
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