Pve Raiding

[Firebert]

Why are you only pinpointing certain statements?

Because they're the only statements that deserve responses.

Regarding Warrior rage generation, you're trading the RNG of missing SS/Revenge for the RNG of a tank death due to lack of avoidance/mitigation. One ends up with a DPS dead because he blew all his cooldowns like an idiot, the other with a Tank death that could be easily avoided by gearing properly. It's easier to let tanks "build Sunders" than it is to fix RNG.

Regarding LFR, most tanks missing on the pull = 15% miss chance on abilities at worst, which is one in six or seven. I've a good feeling you've been incredibly unlucky.

You didn't answer my question about Blood DKs, you just sidestepped and talked about Prot Paladins.

---------- Post added 2013-04-09 at 01:32 AM ----------

He's not, he has made posts here and on the official forums that are just insanely stupid for ages.
I can still remember the shitstorm around him trying to justify fury pvp or macroing heroic strikes

Please don't try to derail the thread from talking about Warriors and miniscule stat changes to what I've done in the past (especially when on both of those occasions you mention, I was just shouted down by forum users because they clearly didn't understand my point. Easier to attack me than my points, you see).

[Reinholder]

Been Worgen since cata now and i just dont wanna be it anymore but then i dont wanna loose the 1% and darkflight and i have been thinking about change to a pandaren what do you think?

Unless you're on the cutting edge of content the racials aren't going to make a huge difference. I was worgen up until recently but got to the point where I just couldn't stand looking at the attack animations and the loping run style. Yes I know that from a min/max point of view Worgen is the best option DPS wise but for me (generally normal mode raiding) the difference between the races was negligible. I switched to Draenei purely from an aesthetic point of view. Sure, now I'm swimming in hit, and losing the 1% crit is a 'dps loss' but I'm happier looking at my toon now.

I guess I was also a little like you and concerned about losing darkflight, but at the end of the day warriors have so many mobility options I can honestly say losing darkflight wasn't a big deal.

[Recke]

Because they're the only statements that deserve responses.

Regarding Warrior rage generation, you're trading the RNG of missing SS/Revenge for the RNG of a tank death due to lack of avoidance/mitigation. One ends up with a DPS dead because he blew all his cooldowns like an idiot, the other with a Tank death that could be easily avoided by gearing properly. It's easier to let tanks "build Sunders" than it is to fix RNG.

Regarding LFR, most tanks missing on the pull = 15% miss chance on abilities at worst, which is one in six or seven. I've a good feeling you've been incredibly unlucky.

You didn't answer my question about Blood DKs, you just sidestepped and talked about Prot Paladins.

You still ignored the fact that not missing SS/Revenge provides you with better mitigation due to Shield Barrier (or Shield Block depending on the situation). And, yeah, I don't claim to be lucky.
As for Blood Dks, I didn't touch on it because Darkfriend said something about it, however you probably have him on ignore so I'll restate it.
The amount of rune generation a Blood Dk gets from gemming/gearing haste isn't viable. Mastery is the go to stat due to the overall better mitigation point per point than Dodge/Parry/Haste. Dodge and Parry have a higher weight than Haste. Each tank varies.

[Firebert]

The amount of rune generation a Blood Dk gets from gemming/gearing haste isn't viable. Mastery is the go to stat due to the overall better mitigation point per point than Dodge/Parry/Haste. Dodge and Parry have a higher weight than Haste. Each tank varies.

Of course it isn't viable: tanks gearing for any offensive stats is suboptimal as you are moving away from what your class is supposed to be doing, that is, Tanking.

---------- Post added 2013-04-09 at 02:03 AM ----------

Yes I know that from a min/max point of view Worgen is the best option DPS wise but for me (generally normal mode raiding) the difference between the races was negligible. I switched to Draenei purely from an aesthetic point of view. Sure, now I'm swimming in hit, and losing the 1% crit is a 'dps loss' but I'm happier looking at my toon now.

I guess I was also a little like you and concerned about losing darkflight, but at the end of the day warriors have so many mobility options I can honestly say losing darkflight wasn't a big deal.

Just remember that Gift of the Naaru isn't all that bad, just macro it into your regeneration abilities (or onto a tank for many brownie points).

[Recke]

Of course it isn't viable: tanks gearing for any offensive stats is suboptimal as you are moving away from what your class is supposed to be doing, that is, Tanking.

Yes, but your comment earlier stated that you believed Expertise to be a dps stat. And tanks shouldn't be going "dps" cuz it's not needed. Hit and Expertise have been mathematically proven to be a better source of damage mitigation than dodge or parry for Protection Warriors. Haste, a dps stat, is better mitigation than dodge and parry for Protection Paladins. Blood Dks don't benefit as much from other stats due to Haste not providing enough gain to go for, and since Death Strike provides a shield/heal even if parried, so hit and expertise aren't necessary for Blood Dks. I don't know the Agi tanks (Guardian Druids and Brewmaster Monk) but the dps stats (crit/haste) have different effects for them to benefit tanking.

[Firebert]

Hit and Expertise have been mathematically proven to be a better source of damage mitigation than dodge or parry for Protection Warriors.

Seems to be three different kinds of builds on AMR for me. Wonder why...

Haste, a dps stat, is better mitigation than dodge and parry for Protection Paladins.

And three for this one too...

[Recke]

Seems to be three different kinds of builds on AMR for me. Wonder why...

And three for this one too...

AskMrRobots description.

PvE: Hit/Exp Build (Hit=Exp> Mastery > Parry=Dodge)
This strategy is the best for smoothing damage taken, reducing the chance of large spikes to a minimum through higher and more consistent rage generation. Adjust Stamina as you see fit.

PvE: Avoidance Build (Mastery > Parry=Dodge > Hit=Exp)
This is arguably an optimal build if you use Shield Block almost exclusively. If you do use Shield Barrier often, use one of the higher Hit/Exp builds instead. Adjust Stamina as you see fit.

PvE: Balance Build (Mastery > Hit=Exp > Parry=Dodge)
Drops some Hit/Exp to stack Mastery, giving better balance of Passive and active mitigation. Slightly more prone to spikes, but arguably better than the Hit/Exp strategy if you don't execute a perfect rotation or tend not to use Shield Barrier very often. Adjust Stamina as you see fit.

It seems that if you don't use one of your options to mitigate damage nearly at all, then yes, Parry/Dodge is good, however even the "balance build" says that Parry and Dodge are the lowest valued.
You brought AMR into this and it says that Hit/Exp>Parry/Dodge in most situations.


AMR on Prot Paladins?

PvE: Control/Mastery (Hit > Exp > Mastery > Stamina > Haste)
Default build based on research by Theck, found at sacredduty.net. Focuses on smoothing incoming damage spikes and giving your healers more time to react. This variant prefers Mastery over Haste, as it gives good results and is easier to play.

PvE: Control/Haste (Hit > Exp > Haste > Stamina > Mastery)
Build based on research by Theck, found at sacredduty.net. Similar to the default strategy, but prefers haste over mastery. Haste provide similar defensive benefts, but also results in much higher DPS. The downside is that is more difficult to play.

PvE: Avoidance Build (Mastery > Parry=Dodge > Hit > Exp)
Aims for a high dodge and parry build, which will reduce your total damage by more than the 'control' strategies, but the damage will spike more often. Adjust Stamina up or down to suit your play style.

So, in the 3 common builds, Hit/Exp > Parry/Dodge. And Haste is viable in all except the avoidance build, which is stated to be more spikey, which will lead to tank deaths. Note it only states that it's more total damage mitigation for Paladins since warriors can use Shield Barrier to reduce damage regardless of Dodge/Parry/Hit/Block/etc.


Looking at my stats while in tank gear,
2699 Dodge rating adds 3.05% Dodge above Base (Before diminishing returns) for ~885 rating per percent.
3682 Parry rating adds 4.16% Parry above Base (before diminishing returns) for ~885 rating per percent.
Hit and Expertise are both 340 rating per percent.
Protection Warrior Mastery is ~273 rating per percent.

So, point for point, Dodge and Parry, due to amount needed to get 1%, is ineffective compared to say Hit/Expertise, which increase your rage gen which can grant 100% block chance or just flat absorption. Mastery, due to being lower "cost" and having almost as effective mitigation also is considered better.

---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 07:39 PM ----------

Also, apparently Blood Dks have 3 different builds as well, but how many of players who tank as a Blood Dk don't stack mastery? The builds don't show what percentage of players are using it.

[Sagittary]

I need to get me some more popcorn. GO DARKFIEND!

[sjsctt]

[QUOTE=Firebert;20768224]Of course it isn't viable: tanks gearing for any offensive stats is suboptimal as you are moving away from what your class is supposed to be doing, that is, Tanking.[COLOR="red"]

Actually according to GC, they want tanks to be focused on dealing damage as well as indicated in the interviews on today's MMO front page. know when to fold them dude. Trust me, there is no gold at the bottom of that hole you keep digging.

[Firebert]

Actually according to GC, they want tanks to be focused on dealing damage as well as indicated in the interviews on today's MMO front page.

We want tanks to care about damage not just spamming threat.

The only way that's going to happen is with more Tank DPS mechanics. The last one I had to face was Gara'jal Normal, and I could kill the voodoo masks as Dual Wield Blood, with a full Mastery build.

They've failed if they want tanks to care about damage, when non-damage specced tanks such as myself can clear mechanics where Tank DPS is required.

[esoterickk]

We want tanks to care about damage not just spamming threat.

The only way that's going to happen is with more Tank DPS mechanics. The last one I had to face was Gara'jal Normal, and I could kill the voodoo masks as Dual Wield Blood, with a full Mastery build.

They've failed if they want tanks to care about damage, when non-damage specced tanks such as myself can clear mechanics where Tank DPS is required.

They haven't failed in the slightest.

Tank DPS makes up a big part of DPS when pushing Heroics, mainly due to vengeance. Saying that they've failed referencing normal entry raid mechanics in a non-optimal setup is a very poor example.

[Firebert]

Tank DPS makes up a big part of DPS when pushing Heroics, mainly due to vengeance.

So you say they only want Tanks pushing Heroic mode raiding to care about DPS.

They already do that and that's a tiny population of the raiding community, and GC just says tanks, so I'm going to assume he means all of them.

Still failed.

[Recke]

So you say they only want Tanks pushing Heroic mode raiding to care about DPS.

They already do that and that's a tiny population of the raiding community, and GC just says tanks, so I'm going to assume he means all of them.

Still failed.

Alright, I'm getting a little annoyed at how blatantly wrong and nonstop your comments are becoming. You've been proven wrong multiple times, and now you are arguing against Blizzard's development team about their design.

They don't specify Heroics only.
https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...67859412586497

We want tanks to care about damage not just spamming threat.

Because we want your attacks to matter, not just coasting on what the previous tank did.

So, this isn't a "tiny population of the raiding community" and not even just to the raiding community.

Also, and pardon me if I seem rude, but you are really just making this worse on yourself, however...You can take your kill on nerfed content when you out gear most players who attempted it the first time. You killed normal Gara'jal 4 days ago. 5.2 hit it with a 10% nerf on health and damage, making the fight capable for alts to walk in and get gear. You walked in with PvP gear which now has the same stats of PvE gear of the same ilvl (Resil/PvP Power don't count toward the stat pool) and LFR gear from the raid after. During Stone Guards, I bet you did damage. If you weren't the main tank and you guys stuck mostly on one tank, then maybe you didn't, but you held threat, you used Death Strike, a damaging ability, to gain mitigation from the damage you were taking. When you walked into Feng, if you were using the mechanics properly, a tank was reflecting abilities back at the boss for DAMAGE. All damage dealt to the boss is necessary damage to kill it, so the tanks damage, especially with vengeance, will be notable. When you got to Gara'jal, you DID do damage to adds in the spirit realm, you also should of done damage during Gara'jal. If you didn't, I'm surprised someone was willing to you carry you. Spirit Kings? You did damage for threat, you continued to do damage for mitigation.
You fail at making any logical or sound argument and pretty much stretching other people's words as far as you can to defend yourself on something stupid you said.

You played a Blood DK and you don't understand that Death Strike is both damage and mitigation. It has nothing to do with Tank DPS mechanics and more to do with the playstyle. If you aren't actively tanking, you aren't tanking correctly. Using cds is good, but it's not active. Using "DPS" abilities designed for tanks to help with their mitigation is the "damage" GC is talking about.

Blood DK=Death Strike, Rune Strike.
Protection Warrior= Shield Slam, Revenge, Shield Barrier, Shield Block.
Protection Paladin= Crusader Strike, Judgement, Hammer of Wrath, Shield of the Righteous, Word of Glory.
Most of these abilities are damaging attacks that allow for more mitigation, which is Blizzard's design.
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5723364656#3 Second paragraph.

I’m really enjoying tanking with my warrior right now, I did enjoy it in Cata as well I must say, but it’s just better now, revenge and shield slam feel great, and you can use the rage that they generate for when you really need to minimize damage taken, or, if you feel confident about your survivability you can use that rage with offensive abilities like heroic strike, but it’s the decision making process that I enjoy, rage doesn’t feel free anymore, you actually have to think and make a trade-off, or even predict when you need to save more rage and build it up for a moment where you know it would be effective and efficient to use a mitigation cooldown like shield barrier or shield block, that’s just good design in my opinion.

You don't have to do anything but taunt, but the design gives you the options now.

[Firebert]

If you weren't the main tank and you guys stuck mostly on one tank, then maybe you didn't, but you held threat, you used Death Strike, a damaging ability, to gain mitigation from the damage you were taking.

Yes, for survivability purposes, not damage purposes.

When you walked into Feng, if you were using the mechanics properly, a tank was reflecting abilities back at the boss for DAMAGE.

We did not use the reflective gem, just the absorption gem.

When you got to Gara'jal, you DID do damage to adds in the spirit realm, you also should of done damage during Gara'jal.

Only damage to spirits was AoE disease spread. I was also DPSing Garajal to bump my threat up to the top of the list for when the other tank got shot into the spirit realm, and have a huge DS shield ready when he swapped on to me. I could have just taunted, in hindsight.

Spirit Kings? You did damage for threat, you continued to do damage for mitigation.

Only because the mitigation is tied on to damage abilities. I don't use them otherwise.

You played a Blood DK and you don't understand that Death Strike is both damage and mitigation.

The damage is not guaranteed, the mitigation is, you press the button for the mitigation, not the damage.

[esoterickk]

So you say they only want Tanks pushing Heroic mode raiding to care about DPS.

They already do that and that's a tiny population of the raiding community, and GC just says tanks, so I'm going to assume he means all of them.

Still failed.

Nope. Initial normal mode kills even required tank damage as a means to beat enrages. Elegon (which coincidentally you haven't killed) required tanks to be putting out optimal DPS in the early weeks. It applies to both normal and heroics. You however are saying that Gara'jal, a boss you only killed 4 days ago with a 10% nerf, on normal mode, in gear that greatly outweighs the blue/greens for the first normal mode clears, is an example of their failed design for tank damage just because you could pass a mechanic without having a DPS orientated spec.

You have no real experience in recent raids to be able to say their current design on tank damage has failed. Nor do you have any premise to argue directly against what their dev team is saying. Again, all you're doing is grasping at straws and further proving how very little you know.

Tank DPS does matter, despite anything you think.

[Firebert]

You however...
You have...
Nor do you...
Again, all you're doing...
...despite anything you think.

Attacking me instead of the argument, eh? I think I know who's won this argument.

[esoterickk]

Attacking me instead of the argument, eh? I think I know who's won this argument.

Exactly right, as this is based on actual experience. However I proved your "argument" wrong also.

You don't have any premise to base your argument on, I'm pointing that out. When you realize you have nothing to base it on except your personal opinion on nerfed content (which you now greatly over gear), you nitpick little details.

My argument stems from actual experience, the experience of several other raiders, and the devs themselves.

[Recke]

Welcome to your own hypocrisy.

Yes, for survivability purposes, not damage purposes.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20767589
You specifically state in the argument of 2% avoidance (your side) and 1% Expertise (my side) that Tanks are supposed to tank, not DPS. You used a damaging ability for mitigation.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20768050
In this post, you clearly state that by using a damaging ability (where as instead of hit/exp, Blood Dks focus on Mastery for their damaging mitigation ability) that you should of put points into avoidance because if you didn't have runes to Death Strike you would of died because you could of avoided it with proper gearing instead of utilizing the given abilities.

We did not use the reflective gem, just the absorption gem.

You threw out a mechanic Blizzard designed and intended to be used, much like you have done with most tanking aspects in this thread. This is you at fault, no one else.

Only damage to spirits was AoE disease spread. I was also DPSing Garajal to bump my threat up to the top of the list for when the other tank got shot into the spirit realm, and have a huge DS shield ready when he swapped on to me. I could have just taunted, in hindsight.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20776224
You stated you had to damage the voodoo masks (which I assume you meant Severed Spirits). You also used Death Strike strictly as a dps gain because:
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=60143#encounter

Shadowy Attacks
Gara'jal will periodically use the following attacks instead of his normal melee attacks:- Sweeping Kick- Hammer Fist- Right Cross- Left Hook. These attacks inflict Shadow Damage to the target and bypass any absorption effects.

Seeing as you raid often, I'm assuming you just didn't know, thus, you used Death Strikes for dps.

Only because the mitigation is tied on to damage abilities. I don't use them otherwise.

Woah, why now with the otherwise? You stated, and even went to try to use AMR with it's builds for tanking that doesn't require the use of mitigation abilities tied to damage. Go back to the first links in the post to see that you'd rather be pure avoidance and a tank that doesn't do any DPS because that's a waste of stats that could go towards avoidance.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Raiding/page2

The damage is not guaranteed, the mitigation is, you press the button for the mitigation, not the damage.

Again, this is wrong. This is a warrior thread, we started talking about warriors (Night Elf apparently being the best race for warriors because of the 2% avoidance).
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20759227 Post where I state that Hit/Exp are worth getting over dodge/parry because you don't want to miss that damage (since it's "not guaranteed") and the mitigation is (which isn't for warriors, which is the topic at hand), so you press the button for the mitigation (which didn't happen) because the damage didn't happen.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20767589 You telling me this is inaccurate.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Raiding/page3 You telling me that mitigation isn't the answer, that avoidance should been.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20768287 You bringing up AMR builds for tanks.
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/eu/darkspear/sneezie A link to AMR with your character (Blood DK) on it. Underneath "gearing strategy" there appears to be an "Avoidance Build" utilizing Str>Parry=Dodge>Stam>Mastery>Exp/Hit.
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...eezie/advanced Your armory where you reforge into Parry and Mastery, including Parry/Mastery Gems instead of Str/Mastery (as per your claimed "the other with a Tank death that could be easily avoided by gearing properly. It's easier to let tanks "build Sunders" than it is to fix RNG." http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20768050)

Sir, you have talked yourself into a circle, and have called yourself wrong multiple times. I ask you to pick this debate next time in the bathroom with a mirror so maybe you two can see eye to eye.

[Firebert]

Sir, you have talked yourself into a circle

There's no need to quote the entire thread, and your post effectively says nothing. Why did you post, except to flame me?

[Recke]

There's no need to quote the entire thread, and your post effectively says nothing. Why did you post, except to flame me?

No, much like you took points that needed responses, I took your individual quotes of mine (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20776969) and replied because each needed a response to help you understand. And I didn't quote the entire thread, just posts between yourself and I about mitigation and avoidance that you, in the recent post, completely disregarded. It wasn't a flame post as much as a clarifying post to help you understand.

---------- Post added 2013-04-09 at 05:38 PM ----------

I'll simplify if you need.

Quote A) You state using abilities for Survivability purposes, not damage purposes, but state elsewhere that tanks shouldn't have to do any DPS. You also state that points toward helping said mitigation abilities would be better spent on avoidance. Thus, you counter yourself.

Quote B) You state that you didn't use a mechanic that Blizzard designed for use. That's the same as not using mitigation abilities or stats.

Quote C) You state that you spread diseases (which is through dps abilities) and that you attacked the boss with your abilities despite him often ignoring the absorption, your said mitigation.

Quote D) You say that you use abilities for mitigation and I quote your earlier comment (and even bring up the AMR builds for DK include an Avoidance build, which each plate tank has available and you implied was the proper build for tanks) and then use you as an example to state that the other builds are popular and that mitigation is also viable.

Quote E) You falsely state that when an ability is used, the damage is not guaranteed but the mitigation is, which, since the original topic is warriors, I clarify that this is false and that you earlier claimed that putting points to make this mitigation more accurate was doing something a Tank shouldn't do, DPS.