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  1. #1

    Council problems (10N)

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6zdoyaf1q8hwcpw2/

    We lost alot of our core raiding grp at the end of cata, so our progression hit rock bottom and now we are trying to rebuild. After a painful time getting Horridon down, we are now starting and failing on council and I was hoping some people here could pick apart our logs and find out what problems are effecting us the most, and what raiders are causing a problem.

    I know gear would make this fight easier (alot are under 500), but the same time we are hitting the dps target and I am confident enough in our healers that this is a purely a mechanics learn to play issue.

    Wondering if anyone has any ideas?

  2. #2
    Mechagnome WskyDK's Avatar
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    What strat are you currently using? give us a bit more to go on

  3. #3
    The raidleader that night was purely going for the empowered mobs, ignoring all others (minus adds) and switching only when the next one is empowered. For the priest adds, we have 2 dps whom have the responsibility for getting them down, so that is not an issue. I was personally suggesting to him to focus on one other mob (e.g. sul) at the beginning of an empower to make sure at least one of the bosses dies in one empower cycle. Though my idea was shot down (and since I was not raidleading that night, my GM who was leader that night had the power and final decision.)

  4. #4
    The tactic you suggested is definitely the best one for this fight. You want to burn Sul before he does his empowered phase as sandstorm+adds are possibly the most deadly mechanic there.

    To achieve this you need to:
    - Keep the priestess far from him and have every ranged switch to the healing adds
    - Blow bloodlust when you engage and burn sul
    - Make possession switch exactly as boss energy approaches 100 (a few seconds of Dark Power are healable as well)

    You should roughly get Sul to 50-45% before switching the first empowerment, 25% before switching the second and it dying before switching the third.

    To have minimal movement during the fight, therefore maximizing DPS, you should stay spread out and just blow CDs on the people getting frostbite/biting cold.
    Also try and have only rangeds switch onto Kazra'jin, as melee lose quite a bit of uptime due to his charges.
    Another thing which could help would be for the tank taking the priestess, actually getting her in a far position, then when she starts casting again nobody interrupts her so the tank is actually free to go and DPS the other bosses while the priestess remains into position.

    If you can, also have your priest switch to Discipline, he should be able to pull 40k or so DPS which can help when it gets to pushing sul.
    If you still can't make it, you might want to have your druid spec heart of the wild and DPS at the start.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...e/?s=737&e=960 <- this was our damage done in our alt raid, and specifically from the start to when sul dies.

    If you still can't get sul down before his empowered phase, stick to this tactic and try to at least get him down before he casts a second sandstorm.
    Last edited by Fluorescent0; 2013-04-08 at 09:05 AM.

  5. #5
    Your world of logs has most attempts ending after 1-2 mins im guessing your tanks are dying to the damage from frigid assault, your main tank is also taking a huge amount of stagger damage... im not 100% on monk tanking but that seems like alot of damage from something you can just purge off

  6. #6
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    You should roughly get Sul to 50-45% before switching the first empowerment, 25% before switching the second and it dying before switching the third.
    Yes and no.

    You can and you should burn Sul as low as possible when the first troll (Malakk) is empowered on pull, but you cannot really take Sul's HP as a reference point. As the amount of HP he has once you switch depends on how good your DPS is. I would suggest that you just watch Malakk's empowerment bar (your boss frames should show it) and around 50 empowerment just switch to Malakk.

    If 50 is too late for you, go with 40. If 50 is more then enough, go with 60 empowerment. As you will have to work out yourself at which point is comfortable and gives your DPS enough time to bring Malakk out of his empowerment.

    That's why referencing Sul's HP for the moment to switch is bad, as if you do it too late, you will sit at 100 empowerment for a while, and that is the most definite killer. As your healers will run oom fast. If you watch his empowerment bar, you don't have to worry how bad or good your DPS is, as you are not aiming for a certain amount of HP.

    Only place where you should be tunneling Sul is on pull, after that, once you've switched to Malakk, just nuke the empowered boss and DPS Sul if you have nothing else to do.

    Your GM/RL needs to see the bigger picture (not that her/his idea is bad), but if you wipe at the same point over and over again, it is time to adjust your strategy. If your GM is too stubborn to listen to the other RL, maybe speak with her/him before the pull in private, that way you don't "undermine" his power.

    But coming back to the fight. As Flour said, you MUST get Sul down as fast as possible. His sand phases are annoying as hell, cause the sand adds hurt you, specially when one of your tanks are frozen and the sand adds are all over the place. The rest bosses are just paying attention and doing the mechanics properly.

    Make sure that people know when Malakk is empowered. As if he is, instead of spreading people with debuff have to stack with 2 others to split the stacks and lessen damage. Sul's quicksand stun is dispellable and anything that can break movement imparing effects should break it, as it is a root effect.

    It is also a good idea to interrupt Sul and Ma'li. Less over all damage to the raid.

    Speaking of tanking. As I understood you tank Ma'li away from others. In that case the tank who has Malakk, should use all of his active mitigation (as you have monks, dodge I believe) to avoid as many of Frigid Assault stacks as possible. If Malakk has Frigid Assault buff, he will apply 1 stack of debuff to your Malakk tank. The stacks are only applied when he managed to hit her/him in melee, so if you can avoid the melee attack, you have a chance to reset the stacks. If you get 15 stacks as a tank, you will get frozen for 15 sec (not good). The other method of avoiding it, is to have the Ma'li tank just take Malakk around 10 stacks of debuff to him/her self and allow the primary Malakk tank to reset their stacks.

    If you get that far that Ma'li Empowers, just stack all on top of Ma'li and cleave bosses down together.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING for WoD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  7. #7
    The key is to have as many people as you can get away with nuking down Sul, while the rest deal with the empowered add. Suggest a melee on Sul, really, but everyone can help out as long as the empowered add switches before it reaches full power.

    You want Sul dead ideally before he empowers, and definitely before he boosts the damage of his adds, and you need to be confident of the mechanics of the first three.

    Practice, practice, practice. Make sure to kill the spirit before it reaches Sul, group up for the frost thing, tank swap before deaths and move away from the dark spirits. It's a fight where you have to be observant. If you have people who like to stand still and pummel a boss without looking, you are going to have a very bad time. Have people install GTFO. Enforce it. You can see who hasn't got it from the addon itself, or from the dead people in the sand.

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    the tactic we found out was:

    1) tank+rogue (for interrupts) on sul + malakk. other tank on priestess. taunt only for his attacks before the tank gets frozen.
    1a) those two should interrupt sul as much as they can, minimizing sand on the ground.
    2) nuke sul as hard as you can (including bloodlust and all you have).
    3) after first add from priestess, nuke malakk until he is no longer empowered. during that time, rogue and tank - obviously - remain on sul.
    4) next one empowered (kazrajin): nuke sul as hard as you can.
    5) after first add from priestess again: switch to kazrajin and nuke him until no longer empowered. rogue + tank remain on sul.
    6) next one empowered (priestess): again, nuke sul as hard as you can.
    7) then, after first add again, nuke priestess.

    you see the pattern. nuke sul => kill first add that appears => nuke empowered. then empower switches, nuke sul, and so on. until sul is dead.

    sul should go down somwhere between 4 and 7.

    if you do this strategy and everyone follows the targetswitches accordingly and you still haven't killed sul by that time, you have some scaringly low DPS. normally the rogue and the tank kill sul by the time kazrajin is empowered or shortly after. but your raid dps seems high enough that you should succeed with this strategy.

    just keep in mind: the adds from the priest have ABSOLUTE PRIORITY. after that you nuke either sul or the currently empowered one.

    you absolutely want to kill sul BEFORE he is active the first time. because you DON'T want to have additional adds.

    after sul is down, there are two ways to proceed: 1) you proceed the same way as before, just the priestess is the "new sul" (the idea is: no priestess, no adds to care about, no heals, no unlucky player deaths), or you just nuke whatever is empowered. we use the "nuke the empowered" version then, and it is all fine. maybe some adds will heal some boss then because they are just INSTANTLY consumed, but that is not crucial anymore then. the fight gets a lot easier when sul is down.


    but don't forget, when malakk is active, to assign 2 people to help that one targeted player to soak the frost-thingy-attack. otherwise, people will die.
    Last edited by xebtria; 2013-04-08 at 11:15 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    Yes and no.

    You can and you should burn Sul as low as possible when the first troll (Malakk) is empowered on pull, but you cannot really take Sul's HP as a reference point. As the amount of HP he has once you switch depends on how good your DPS is. I would suggest that you just watch Malakk's empowerment bar (your boss frames should show it) and around 50 empowerment just switch to Malakk.

    If 50 is too late for you, go with 40. If 50 is more then enough, go with 60 empowerment. As you will have to work out yourself at which point is comfortable and gives your DPS enough time to bring Malakk out of his empowerment.

    That's why referencing Sul's HP for the moment to switch is bad, as if you do it too late, you will sit at 100 empowerment for a while, and that is the most definite killer. As your healers will run oom fast. If you watch his empowerment bar, you don't have to worry how bad or good your DPS is, as you are not aiming for a certain amount of HP.
    That's exactly what I suggested three lines above what you quoted, those I was giving below were just benchmarks. Having benchmarks is usually nice as it shows how far your raid is from accomplishing something. Guess it probably wasn't clear enough though from what I wrote.

  10. #10
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    To achieve this you need to:
    - Keep the priestess far from him and have every ranged switch to the healing adds
    - Blow bloodlust when you engage and burn sul
    - Make possession switch exactly as boss energy approaches 100 (a few seconds of Dark Power are healable as well)
    ^ You mean this? And it is oke, I misunderstand a lot of thing.

    I will not start an argument, but the thing I bolded was probably the reason why I posted... As from my personal experience, it is not that vise to cut it too close to an empowerment. You cut it too close and the few seconds at max. empowerment can turn into bit longer.

    Here are my logs from out kill (not the first one (as first one we did with 2 melee (this one with 1 melee only))). They seem to be doing less DPS, so optimal switch from Sul to Malakk in their case would be 40-50 empowerment, not later (again personal opinion from personal experience). If we did it later, the empowerment wiped us.

    But since we stack Sul, Malakk, Ma'li on top of each other (no matter the setup (just brute force cleave/DPS when boss heals)) then our DPS could be bit higher as we ignore the healing adds completely...
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-04-08 at 12:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire Confucius's Avatar
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    the way we did it (ilvl around 500) was to zerg Sul at the start. We brought all bosses to Sul (apart from the spinner). Completely ignored the healing adds, popped hero and burned Sul down as fast as we could. Switched to Frost King when he had around 30 energy. Then back to burning Sul. When Mar'li went nuts, healers and ranged spread out as usual and killed the add when it came up. Basically all dps switched to Mar'li while also cleaving Sul. Sul died when Mar'li was around 50 energy. After Sul was dead, Mar'li was dragged away from Frost King and we killed the rest normally. Killing the add etc. They key is just to get Sul down before it goes nuts. And surviving spinning dude reflect damage.

  12. #12
    Stack Sul/Marli/Malakk and cleave hard off Sul. Switch to Malakk at 50 energy and continue the aoe/cleavea-thon.
    Completely ignore healing adds
    The heal is a paltry 3.7 million heal vs the adds health of 1 million+ + the loss of aoe/target switching DPS loss. The Aoe/Cleave completely overpowers the healing done by a mile.
    Once you stack everything the fight becomes exponentially easier imo.

  13. #13
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    If you have strong AoE/cleave group, the tactic is very good to have. If you have weaker one, it could make things bit more harder. For us with rogue+warrior as melee = stack all up is very good thing. With just one melee, it makes things bit harder, as some classes don't have that strong AoE unfortunately.

    But that doesn't mean that this is something they shouldn't try. If one thing doesn't work, something else probably will.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING for WoD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  14. #14
    What other posters said, plus some details.

    1. Completely ignore healing add mechanic (kill venomous one, ofc).

    2. Stack all three tankable bosses. This enables your melee dps focus switch much more easily.

    3. Completely ignore Malak's "freeze" mechanic. Malak's damage mainly comes from that frozen axe swings. If you let one tank having 12 stacks and then the other tank get 10 stacks you're getting far more damage than if you just let one tank get 15 stacks and be frozen. Once frozen, Malak stops doing that ability. Obviously, not frozen tank should taunt asap once the other tank gets frozen.

    4. Tank damage mainly come after Malak and Priest cast hability. Avoid having the same tank having both during long periods of time.

    5. Kill Sul ASAP, not disregarding empowered boss. Best way to do this is nuking empowered boss to 10% left of that empowerment (2.5% of total life) and then swap to Sul. Once empowered boss starts casting aoe, pop a raid mitigation cd and nuke him.

    This strategy led us from strugling on staying alive in this fight to steamrolling it.

  15. #15
    It's worth reiterating the real motivations for stacking all the bosses and ignoring the Blessed Spirit Loa, because it isn't really about the AoE.

    Until Sul goes down, the only dps that REALLY matters is the dps on Sul and whoever is empowered. All players should optimize their rotations for damaging those two targets. The Blessed Spirit Loa is ignored because the heal it gives to Sul is only marginally bigger than its own HP pool, and the difference is small enough that the target switching penalty alone makes up the difference. Once you've chosen to ignore the Blessed Spirit Loas, stacking Mar'li with Sul at all times makes sense, because she'll then be affected by cleaves off of Sul at all times, specifically including the begining of her empowered phase. If you were to instead wait until she empowers to stack her (as would be required with the kill Loas strategy), valuable cleave time would be lost at the begining of her empowerment.

  16. #16
    Similar to my guilds approach, though we keep a rogue & dps warrior on sul full time in addition to the tank there, heroism is blown right off the bat.
    they also become the gather spot for frostbites since already close at hand.
    our mage blew up every spirit on his own.
    sul dies long before he ever empowers, though with reduced dps elsewhere we do kinda court death due to posessed making it to 100 energy before getting snapped back.

    we don't even tank swap, just healing cools & spare raid walls during the stun. that approach really works , though the odd tank splat is a risk.

    Edit, we keep sul & malakk together, priest gets towed away and tanked in the middle.
    Last edited by Inequs; 2013-04-08 at 01:53 PM. Reason: post sniper you :p , was replying to the one above.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Inequs View Post

    we don't even tank swap, just healing cools & spare raid walls during the stun. that approach really works , though the odd tank splat is a risk.
    Losing the tanks dps for 15 seconds, making him blow a major cooldown and wasting healers mana all to save the other tank clicking "taunt".

    Sounds like a winning strategy.

    I really don't get why people do some dumb crap like this, let alone tote it as a smart tactic they want to share with others.

    Warning; Don't call someone's tactic dumb, just cause the odd thing works for them. (by Sonnillon)
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-04-09 at 05:38 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Losing the tanks dps for 15 seconds, making him blow a major cooldown and wasting healers mana all to save the other tank clicking "taunt".

    Sounds like a winning strategy.

    I really don't get why people do some dumb crap like this, let alone tote it as a smart tactic they want to share with others.
    Depends on the class of tank. Our Druid can dodge enough that his stacks reset before he ever gets stunned.

  19. #19
    Just stack all three tankable bosses in one place. Ignore white adds - the gain you get from tank dps and cleaves is better. Then, focus on Sul, switching to the empowered one so that the empower ends right at or a little after 100 dark energy.

    If you have poor dps and happen to let Sul empower, don't fret. Just have one of you tanks pick up adds, kite them around, and have your ranged help AoE them. His empower phase really is not that bad - the real benefit of killing him is that his Sandbolt does a ton of damage, and its near impossible to interrupt every one.

  20. #20
    In response to Deja Thoris up there who wants to act superior, keep your flames and attempts at insults to yourself, the boss dies don't it ?

    Warning; If you feel that someone's post toward you is insulting - report it, don't post. (by Sonnillon).
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-04-09 at 05:39 AM.

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