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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixhart View Post
    They were never left out to begin with.

    A battleground requires very little context to begin with-Only a rudimentary reason for why Horde and Alliance are there, and you're golden.
    So you'll also agree that PvE doesn't require any lore backing, it just needs to offer epic rewards for people to enjoy it?

    With that logic, every instance would be like Stormstout Brewery and every Scenario would be like Unga Ingoo. Let's celebrate!

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You know what the problem is with everything that has happened since cataclysm? This entire war scenario has become so completely forced and contrived it no longer feels genuine. Before cataclysm, there was ALWAYS the tension between horde and alliance, it never went away, despite what you try and claim, it was always there. It was just done is a far more subtle, believable way then what it is now.

    You know the issue with full on warfair in a game like Wow where both factions are equal and opposite? Its that they will NEVER BEAT EACH OTHER IN ALL OUT WAR. They won't, its inconceivable to imagine it will ever happen. This is why this forced warfair mentality in wow now just degrades the story down so much.

    It was more believeable when there was the mild tension between both sides before cataclysm. Where horde and alliance best friends before it? NO, if you played vanilla you would know there was always tension between both sides, and if horde and alliance meet on a battlefield or in opposing faction territory, they would fight, they were not friends, but the tone of it was far more subtle in a story where focusing on major problems in the world matters more then trying to satisfy a childish itch for pvping.

    The whole thing with cataclysm? Deathwing has just shattered the world, thats a massive thing and the threat of him coming down and raining fire on everyone was there. But instead of focusing all attention to defeating deathwing and his forces, the horde and alliance decide to go to all out conflict with one another, waist resources and soldiers in killing one another, and generally being massive d**ks about it.

    Its so conceived, all of this current story is so forced and the conflict is so ridiculous its like both sides have taken a step backwards, instead of growing wiser as factions they both end up looking like a group of obnoxious teenagers fighting a street war just because of someone wearing blue instead of red.

    Conflict can be good, IF ITS DONE WELL, but none of this crap thats happened since cataclysm has been good for the story. What is so obvious is conclusion, how once Garrosh is gone, things will go back to as it was before cataclysm with the awkward tension and cold war mentality, and so it achieved nothing though these events except to either kill characters to screw over concepts that didn't need to be touched on.
    I have to agree with the general point of what's said here; the conflict is so incredibly forced at the moment. It really doesn't help that EVERY single plot point that furthers the conflict just happens to be a significant lore character turning off their brain and massively hamfisting something. See: Thrall leaving Garrosh to the Horde, Jaina going full impulse mode in Dalaran, etc. This is all on top of it being plainly obvious that both sides lose infinitely more than they gain by being in open conflict, ESPECIALLY when there are blindingly obvious greater threats.

    This whole war plot is silly and forced beyond belief.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    The part where he (thinks he) had Vol'jin assassinated, and occupied the Echo Isles. Also, everything in 5.3.
    When someone commits insubordination, you punish him. Simple as that. How is it tyranny? Vol'jin has an authority issue.

  4. #24
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    Why would you even bother to respond to this obv...T post?
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    When someone commits insubordination, you punish him. Simple as that. How is it tyranny? Vol'jin has an authority issue.
    Vol'jin gave Garrosh a stern talking-to once. That's it. That isn't a good reason to assassinate someone, especially when they're the leader of an entire faction that you're allied with. Neither does it function as a reason to go ahead and occupy the Echo Isles.

    Killing someone for speaking out (as far as Garrosh is concerned, that's exactly what he did) in private is nothing short of tyranny.
    Last edited by Eats Compost; 2013-04-08 at 01:01 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    When someone commits insubordination, you punish him. Simple as that. How is it tyranny? Vol'jin has an authority issue.
    Yes, you punish HIM. Not his entire race of people. What have the rest of the Darkspear done, aside from loyally follow Garrosh's every order to their deaths? And from the looks of 5.3, despite that they're still being treated as war criminals.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2013-04-08 at 01:04 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    Vol'jin gave Garrosh a stern talking-to once.
    He threatened him with assassination, how do you consider that stern talking-to is beyond me.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    He threatened him with assassination, how do you consider that stern talking-to is beyond me.
    And he said he'd do it when people became aware of what Garrosh was; a tyrant-to-be and an inept leader. Garrosh ended up proving him right and crossing that very line by ordering his assassination and occupying Echo Isles.

    Also, I'm yet to hear any justification for Echo Isles.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    He threatened him with assassination, how do you consider that stern talking-to is beyond me.
    If we're going down that route, that conversation starts with "DON'T TALK BACK TO ME, TROLL."

    Sounds pretty dictator-ish.

  10. #30
    Mechagnome darkminaz's Avatar
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    i hated thrall for beeing a wussi (srsly he got THA POWAAAAA and does he kill the bastard son of stormwind? NO !)
    i hate garrosh for not killing the same person (srsly 1 hp left .. FINISH HIM .. EXECUTEEEE)

    overall i don't realy see any of the "leaders" as great leader of a war.

    Lets start with the basics
    Jaina proudmoore: can teleport into the base of the horde without anything, yet doesn't kill garrosh in his sleep (not realy nice but then again he attacked her mage buddys and we all know mage > warrior (atleast in pvp :P) so boom)


    Tauren: lol grass is greeen weeeeee ..
    trolls: i like vol'jin but he is to nice, relax man and have a joint with the tauren buddys daz dingo maaaan
    undead aka silvanas: i'm dead but still sexy! BEAT THAT BITCHES
    goblins: who cares about the war? gimme money
    b811: our leader is a guy that pretty mutch noone knows! but if you kill him you get a acievment! ..

    Gnomes: i'm lvl 90 elite and i live with ugly dwarfes since i can't get a lvl 30 instance wyped out and rebuild ..
    dwarfes: who want's a beer? screw the war! <3
    humans aka varian: where is my son? that lvl 15 priest? WHO STOLE MY FUCKING SON WAAAA , let's not do something evil and slaughter some orcs .. nooo i like to walk around and search my lil brat
    nightelfs: lets hug some trees or shit ..
    aliens aka dranei: for the burning legion .. i mean let's be purple and blue and .. well .. meh
    worgen aka dogfight: do we even have a leader? bark roar wuff wuff .. ah yeah the gentleman guy ..

    someone who fights a war schould know basic warfare, how to hit em where it hurts. but that would mean one of the sides would die, aka end of warcraft aka no more money

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    If we're going down that route, that conversation starts with "DON'T TALK BACK TO ME, TROLL."

    Sounds pretty dictator-ish.
    Or his terrible accent makes his ears bleed.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    What tyrany exactly? I haven't seen any.
    ok here are some examples.

    -the eviction of non orc, non tauren races from central orgrimmar due to the belief that they are a weaker race,

    - the killing of cairne bloodhoof, poison from Magatha aside, this was an unbelievably arrogant and despicable move.

    - following up on that, the assassination attempt on vol'jin....do wise benevolent leaders generally try to assassinate wise generals? No, thats usually tyrants

    - the appointment of malkorok as his personal bodyguard and the use of him to quiet dissent through intimidation, abduction, and murder.

    - the abduction of the focusing iris, the murder of the blue dragon, and the use of the artifact to make a weapon of mass destruction that was then used to "scour theramore from the continent of kalmidor."

    - Garrosh's aim of complete genocide of the alliance.

    - Garrosh's proclamation that every man women and child is to assist in the war against the alliance, and anyone found shirking their duties will have to deal with his private police force the kor'kron

    - the placement of martial law over the echo isles, effectively turning the troll homeland into an interment camp.

    - the attempt to use the divine bell to empower warriors in a similar fashion to drinking demon blood.

    edit:

    Garrosh's belief that anyone who isn't an orc is an inferior in the horde. (nazi germany anyone?)



    I think that pretty much sums it up. As seeing myself as an intelligent member of the horde I simply can not wait to bring justice to this war criminal.
    Last edited by draconith1; 2013-04-08 at 01:19 PM.

  13. #33
    Garrosh was good for the game because he served as an antagonist through which they were able to write interesting lore into the game. Times of conflict, upheavals, sacrifice and big changes, that was obviously healthy for the Warcraft lore, and is healthy for any lore every once in a while.

    I can't relate to the whole "it heats the faction conflict up again" argument though. I look at the Warcraft universe as a whole. I happen to play Alliance, but I don't necessarily "side" with it. I'm interested in what happens on Azeroth (and beyond) overall, Alliance and Horde, it's all part of a story, I'm not over-identifying with one particular faction.

    The whole idea of looking at one faction as "us" and being passionately against the other one is dumb and juvenile to me. It's even more dumb than referring to "us" when a national ball team wins a game against some other national ball team, or when a goverment decides to throw off some bombs over the territory of another.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    What have the rest of the Darkspear done...
    They're filthy trolls. Reason enough for me.

  15. #35
    Bloodsail Admiral KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    If we did this to every race that I dont like, Azeroth would be pretty empty.

    Those "filthy" trolls are still innocents.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  16. #36
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    We could have had all that with any leader, had they put a little more effort (as in, not pinning ALL sins and ALL atrocities on one faction and one or two of its leaders) into the war storyline. Thrall was just as proud of his orcish heritage and prone to chest-thumping as Garrosh, he just wasn't as stupid, racist, and needlessly belligerent.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    If we did this to every race that I dont like, Azeroth would be pretty empty.

    Those "filthy" trolls are still innocents.
    A little oppressing and slaughtering of innocents in a video game is a nice change of pace once in a while, don't you agree? It's a bonus if it's someone you don't like.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You know what the problem is with everything that has happened since cataclysm? This entire war scenario has become so completely forced and contrived it no longer feels genuine. Before cataclysm, there was ALWAYS the tension between horde and alliance, it never went away, despite what you try and claim, it was always there. It was just done is a far more subtle, believable way then what it is now.

    You know the issue with full on warfair in a game like Wow where both factions are equal and opposite? Its that they will NEVER BEAT EACH OTHER IN ALL OUT WAR. They won't, its inconceivable to imagine it will ever happen. This is why this forced warfair mentality in wow now just degrades the story down so much.

    It was more believeable when there was the mild tension between both sides before cataclysm. Where horde and alliance best friends before it? NO, if you played vanilla you would know there was always tension between both sides, and if horde and alliance meet on a battlefield or in opposing faction territory, they would fight, they were not friends, but the tone of it was far more subtle in a story where focusing on major problems in the world matters more then trying to satisfy a childish itch for pvping.

    The whole thing with cataclysm? Deathwing has just shattered the world, thats a massive thing and the threat of him coming down and raining fire on everyone was there. But instead of focusing all attention to defeating deathwing and his forces, the horde and alliance decide to go to all out conflict with one another, waist resources and soldiers in killing one another, and generally being massive d**ks about it.

    Its so conceived, all of this current story is so forced and the conflict is so ridiculous its like both sides have taken a step backwards, instead of growing wiser as factions they both end up looking like a group of obnoxious teenagers fighting a street war just because of someone wearing blue instead of red.

    Conflict can be good, IF ITS DONE WELL, but none of this crap thats happened since cataclysm has been good for the story. What is so obvious is conclusion, how once Garrosh is gone, things will go back to as it was before cataclysm with the awkward tension and cold war mentality, and so it achieved nothing though these events except to either kill characters to screw over concepts that didn't need to be touched on.
    I disagree with you I think it makes the lore better forced or not. Alot of ppl were tired of lets hold hands fight the big bad guy. I agree with OP it brought back the "war" in WoW. My question would be why do you want things to be all peaceful and no conflict? It would be very boring. Lets try to fight 2 wars instead of one. one being the big bad guy and the other, the faction we hate.

  19. #39
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    I hope this isn't worthy of an infraction, as I'm aware you can be infracted for mentioning peoples grammar, but I'm just curious. Why do you capitalize the first letter in random words? Clash? Main? Very?
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    Garrosh was good for the game because he served as an antagonist through which they were able to write interesting lore into the game. Times of conflict, upheavals, sacrifice and big changes, that was obviously healthy for the Warcraft lore, and is healthy for any lore every once in a while.

    I can't relate to the whole "it heats the faction conflict up again" argument though. I look at the Warcraft universe as a whole. I happen to play Alliance, but I don't necessarily "side" with it. I'm interested in what happens on Azeroth (and beyond) overall, Alliance and Horde, it's all part of a story, I'm not over-identifying with one particular faction.

    The whole idea of looking at one faction as "us" and being passionately against the other one is dumb and juvenile to me. It's even more dumb than referring to "us" when a national ball team wins a game against some other national ball team, or when a goverment decides to throw off some bombs over the territory of another.
    As a player I look at it as a whole. I got a few Alliance toons but I favor Horde more they just cooler and plus I despise gnomes.. But when I'm playing Alliance I like to think I hate the other side but we're also trying to kill the big bad guy while fighting another faction, and same goes for when I'm playing horde.It Seems more interesting then oh hey allaince lets hug each other and go battle the big bad guy. Sorry that's boring imo.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 07:28 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by draconith1 View Post
    ok here are some examples.

    -the eviction of non orc, non tauren races from central orgrimmar due to the belief that they are a weaker race,

    - the killing of cairne bloodhoof, poison from Magatha aside, this was an unbelievably arrogant and despicable move.

    - following up on that, the assassination attempt on vol'jin....do wise benevolent leaders generally try to assassinate wise generals? No, thats usually tyrants

    - the appointment of malkorok as his personal bodyguard and the use of him to quiet dissent through intimidation, abduction, and murder.

    - the abduction of the focusing iris, the murder of the blue dragon, and the use of the artifact to make a weapon of mass destruction that was then used to "scour theramore from the continent of kalmidor."

    - Garrosh's aim of complete genocide of the alliance.

    - Garrosh's proclamation that every man women and child is to assist in the war against the alliance, and anyone found shirking their duties will have to deal with his private police force the kor'kron

    - the placement of martial law over the echo isles, effectively turning the troll homeland into an interment camp.

    - the attempt to use the divine bell to empower warriors in a similar fashion to drinking demon blood.

    edit:

    Garrosh's belief that anyone who isn't an orc is an inferior in the horde. (nazi germany anyone?)



    I think that pretty much sums it up. As seeing myself as an intelligent member of the horde I simply can not wait to bring justice to this war criminal.
    Which makes for excellent lore. I would much rather have this than the horde and alliance joining together to beat the worlds bad guy. Nothign wrong with beating the big bad guy, but at least have soem faction pride and faction war. And everything in between.

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