1. #1
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Oct 2012
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    Tortos 10 Heroic Problems

    Hi,

    we have put 4 hours of progression into the boss (About 35 good tries, 10 tries with disconnects and stuff) and seem to be at a stalemate. I would really appreciate some feedback to put this big turtle on this back.

    Setup: Blood DK (Boss), Monk (Kiter), 2 Melees (Frost DK/Warri), 2 Heals (Disc/Shaman), 4 Ranged (Lock, Shadow, Hunter, Mage)
    Subs: We have a Resto Druid and a Rogue/Mage available to sub in if setup would be better than it is currently. Blood DK can also sub in his 505 ILevel Prot Warrior.

    Average Itemlevel: 516 // Progress: 1/13 HC, T15 was 15/16 HC

    Basic Tactic: Kite the Bats (MD with Barrage; Kegsmash), Prioritize Turtles > Boss, 70% WL slow on Turtles, Position Healers in the center, Ranged around them, spread out - Melees ignore Turtles (They AoE them as long as they are in melee range, but dont follow them into the room). Disc heals Raid, Shaman heals Blood DK/helps out on raid.

    Best Try was about 40%.

    ---

    We whipe because of 3 major problems (about 1/3

    a) healers die from cave bats
    b) monk tank dies from kiting
    c) people dying from rockfall because of fail/positioning/losing shield to turtles/quake etc. OR a breath killing us because our designated kicker cant get to it in time (due to turtles/rockfalls)

    So, to solve these problems we adjusted accordingly

    a) Our healers are "stacked" on the middle/one side. Ranged are in a circle like formation around the middle. The outer lanes are free for our monk to kite in a circle. Hunter misdirects bats and monk tries to get them as soon as they land on the healers with keg smash. Problem now is, if the hunter misdirects too soon, the bats head straigth for our monk and might fuck him in his "rotation", because they come from differente directions all the time and he can't plan it - the might land directly in front of him and stuff like that. If the hunter misdirects too late (like mid-ish, so the bats come down near the healers), the healers get gibbed before the keg smash barrels land. Might also happen that the hunter doesn't see the timer, doesn't make it in time because he is across the room or the monk is out of md range, stuff like that. But if we skip the misdirection, healers are certainly getting gibbed at one point during the encounter (maybe not the first bat spawn, but the 4th or 5th.

    Question 1: How do other monks / hunters / healers handle this issue exactly? we know the theory, we just have problems with the details.

    b) Our monk tends to get overwhelmed at some point, usually around the 50% mark. There are just too many bats for him to handle and he tends to die from 1-2 bats reaching him or from new bat spawns. To fix this, we planned on nuking the bats at some point (about 60% and 30%). We only gotten to the 60% nuke part yet, but that seemed to work ok. Bats got cleaned up nicely and he started at 0 again. But sometimes he just messes up anyway or DK tank pulls aggro from healing (like, when he needs to sac a ghoul and has 1-2 large DS heals the moment the bats spawn) and the bats nuke the dk or the monk after he tries to "statue-taunt" them back to him and they come at him at a different direction.

    Question 2: Anything else we can do about it / help our monk not dying / help him improve his kiting route, playstyle?

    c) We tend to lose alot of people. Usualy its smooth till about 60%. After that, shit starts to hit the fan. We only ever reached the 40% mark once. If the monk doesnt die, our healers dont die, someone else will. Healers are usually low on mana (not really oom, but starting to get worrysome) or people start to fail more (I dont really know, since I'm the blood dk and I have my back to the raid like all the time) or we just lose one because of turtles/quake/rockfall combination which just nukes the shield down / healers dont get him up again fast enough etc. Also, it just happens sometimes that our kicker doesn't get to the turtle in time because there are rockfalls on it/turtles are whirling through the other turtle. We haven't figured out a good way to circumvent that. We try to not stand near a dead turtle during quake stomp and stuff, but in all the hectic you can't really avoid it all the time. Only other thing we could do is, always leave 2 dead turtles up at the same time, but that would reduce the uptime of shell concussion on the boss, therefor stretching the fight?

    Question 3: Not really much we can do I guess, but maybe we have some positional errors or sth? I had the feeling that healing was better on this when we tried disc/resto druid instead of disc/resto shaman. But we kinda need the mastery/increases hp from our shaman. I'm kinda lost here what to do.

    ---

    Question 4: We are currently running 2 Melees. In theory, we have the possibility to go with 0-1 Melees. But, our Frost DK does the best damage atm. and has the best gear, so I would rather not sit him. Only other option would be to sit our undergeared (505) fury Warrior and sub in a Mage / Boomkin (2nd Spec). Would that make the encounter easier? I can't really decide on that, because our turtles tend to die ok-ish - but I fear that yet another Ranged will clutter our positiong and result in even more chaos.

    Question 5: We tried tanking the Bats with our Monk tank at first - but they tend to own him. Blood DK gets owned even harder. Would it be viable to put the monk on the Boss and sub in a 505 Itemlevel Prot Warrior to tank the Bats? I guess we would need to switch to 3 Heals then? We can 2-Heal tanking the bats, heal is scarce as it is already. We would need to sub out the Fury Warrior for another Heal then so we dont lose any Ranged. Would that be a good solution to test? That would almost certainly erase Problems a) and b) if we can pull it off (that is, if the warrior can survive). But we might start to run low on turtles then / can't kill them fast enough because we have to AoE the bats aswell?

    ---

    Our Logs:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2w6z3kws6etbul3t/
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3mujekdthcw4oijh/
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-pcrqvlpvab3c6m2f/
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-pubjmdvgs9pl3evs/

  2. #2
    TBH, i dont see why u should kite bats whole fight (the key is, he has needs to have the shell shield on him most of time, which is not super easy, but doable if your healers arent super bad). Kiting tactics feels too risky, we tried that tactics for a bit as well but it really not worth it. With your setup you can kill them pretty fast, what is important, Hunter should md bats asap to designed tank and ppl not dps them for a few seconds, otherwise they will take aggro and probably die. And 2 melees is not problem imho.
    Shaman since MoP, Raider since Vanilla

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  3. #3
    To be honest, just keep trying - our best try was about 40% until we got the kill on him. It's just about everything going right with the Bat kiter pretty much, make sure the bats and turtles are always slowed and possibly bring in an extra range for help with turtles. Warlocks are excellent for this. We personally used a DK Tank to kite bats in Unholy pres for the run speed.

  4. #4
    We had a similar setup of yours (ele instead of lock and palatank instead of blood DK) and we had our monk kiting the whole time without killing the bats ever.
    He too had problems with kiting when a new wave of bats spawn. He stopped having problems with me as ele using earthbind totem each time a new wave spawned and positioning it with projection near the fresh wave, I believe he also saves charging ox wave to stun them if things get messy. He also has an " emergency" trascendance if he's really in trouble.
    As for the aggro he never had particular problems, he gets MD + barrage from our hunter then starts to chain spam beer, i think he also CHi bursts them just to get a lil more initial aggro not sure tho.
    Also one of yours DK's can massgrip all the bats in case it's needed , with 2 you can do that for every bat spawn since it's on 30s timer.

  5. #5
    We ran the same strat, same tank set up and had the same trouble our first night on this guy, we did about 3 hours of attempts and just had a lot of random deaths, mainly healers and our monk tank. We were also 3 healing it the first night (disc, rdruid and hpally). The next raid night disc went shadow since resto druid is very good on this fight, I think so at least (can cap shields very easily on the raid) our hunter started to MD the bats and everything was just easy, had 4 sub 20% wipes and finally got it after that. Getting the turtles down super fast is very important I think, not just because you need them for the interrupt but because it causes a lot of random deaths, which is why switching to 2 healing and adding an extra ranged for us really helped. And your hunter and monk tank just need to be quicker on picking up those adds, it's really hard cause the spawns are all over the room but that's just what it comes down to.

    Oh and we also decided to keep 1 melee, our rogue, on the boss full time, never switching to anything and just using Fan of Knives with crippling poison on the turtles and bats whenever they were close.

    If you kill the bats and 3 heal it the enrage becomes very tight and DPS really have to push much more than they may be doing. And do be careful as the boss tank picking up bats (not sure if you were) but I know it caused a couple of our wipes, once they were on our DK tank our monk kiting tank couldn't get them off of him and our DK just eventually died.

    I'd say just keep trying. DK is a very good boss tank, healers barely have to worry about you. Tell your monk to watch some videos of a monk kiting tank PoV if he hasn't already. He also needs to be controlling those adds, knowing when to get far, far away, when to stun them so he doesn't just fall over. Once him and the hunter get use to their roles in this fight it should be a dead boss.

  6. #6
    Seems to me like coordination is the issue, just need more pulls to fix it and you'll get it.

    Your hunter must not miss a single misdirect for bats, your monk tank must not miss his stuns on bats before stomps, and your kicker must have extra turtles around as backups, and people need to stop tunnelvision and GTFO of rockfalls.

    Not much else to say. You said it all yourself. I know I went holy for this fight and it was a ton easier to max the shield of everybody opposed to disc, just putting it there.
    Macphisto, discipline priest | Karuzo, mistweaver monk

  7. #7
    I wonder if its easier on 25man? We doing H tortoise this wed

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire Vashi's Avatar
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    We are three healing this since our DPSers are capable of doing turtles in that number.

    But other than that we had exact same wipes as you, dieing from bats and monk kitter tank dieing. But well we killed it a bit quicker. He died on 18th try. Mostly dance on rockfall properly. I think as its said above. Kill will just come.

  9. #9
    Stop kiting bats, kill them. Just have stun rotation on them so tank can refresh shield.

  10. #10
    Never enter melee range of the big pack of bats, he can easily run up to a healer or the DK and pull a new wave off of them with a full shield. Your healers should never have issues with the bats as your hunter should do enough damage for that. For the group with a prot pally, have him turn off righteous fury 1/2 way into the fight. Drop your ox statue right where the tank is standing and if he gets agro just taunt off. I normally run into them, leg sweep if I don't have a cooldown up, keg smash, flame breath and spinning crane kick away and that gives plenty of threat before keg toss spam. I think I died one time to bats sub 15% due to having the 6 turtles out at once chain knocking me up, we still killed him though. Don't bother with xuen on this fight.

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